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Xiahou Dun posted:
Thank you so much for this well thought-out and written reply to a random question. It's actually something I've occasionally considered when other lovers of flags say "they should be uncomplicated enough that a kindergartener could draw them"; but what about the kindergarteners who can't discern colours? They'd surely be better off with some kind of anchor to hold on to. fe: randomly googled anchor flag 
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Apr 23, 2024 09:31
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My parents noticed I was colorblind because I’d draw grass with an orange crayon or water with purple.
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I would go one step further and say they have to look like they were drawn by a kindergartener
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Apr 23, 2024 11:23
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It's pretty rare that flags are used to distinguish different countries, most uses are just one flag celebrating (or whatever) one country. And even in the Olympics, where they're actually used to distinguish countries, you still have the athlete names as a clue. Plus, unless it's something like Ireland Vs Italy, the flags are still reasonably distinct for most colour blind people. And most real life people can't even remember the difference between Russia and Netherlands (and France) anyway. The point is fair though, I just don't think it's a huge issue. For the various pride flags, they're generally used to signal friendliness to sexual minorities, and in 99% of cases, any variation on a rainbow flag means you're welcome, if you're gay, trans, intersex or whatever. The extra stripes are a nice gesture, but in terms of indexing safe spaces, they don't really matter.
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Apr 23, 2024 11:28
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Jerkhammer posted:Thank you so much for this well thought-out and written reply to a random question.
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Apr 23, 2024 12:14
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BonHair posted:It's pretty rare that flags are used to distinguish different countries, most uses are just one flag celebrating (or whatever) one country. And even in the Olympics, where they're actually used to distinguish countries, you still have the athlete names as a clue. Plus, unless it's something like Ireland Vs Italy, the flags are still reasonably distinct for most colour blind people. And most real life people can't even remember the difference between Russia and Netherlands (and France) anyway. O it's quite minor in the scheme of things and I hope the tone of my post didn't make it sound like a big deal. It's only really a disability in the technical sense of it is a thing one is unable to do : in terms of practical ability, I think I get the better end of this deal because not having/caring about cones/colors means I've got freakishly good night vision. The classic evo-bio post hoc hypothesis is that it's a great example of a sex-linked mutation : having a small (mostly male) chunk of the population that can see in the dark at the cost of those individuals being useless at foraging ("Is this fruit ripe?" is a problem when red and green aren't distinct), is a pretty useful trade-off for a hypothetical group of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers. (Note : I do no advocate for this hypothesis and just shrug ; it goes in the big bag of unfalsifiable post-hoc evo psych stuff.) More, I'm just pro devices on flags. gently caress yeah, put a bear with a kitchen mixer or a pentagram made out of salmon on your flag or something. Just having a bunch of colors is boring in addition to not being legible to the colorblind.
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Apr 23, 2024 14:01
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Xiahou Dun posted:-stuff about colourblindness- Thanks for the response. I think I agree on the concept of devices - from a game design perspective, I've always been a huge fan of like "two-factor distinction" - sort like how xbox and playstation buttons have both a letter/symbol AND colour associated with them. Visual language that uses shape AND colour makes is both more accommodating and just more powerful. I'd be certainly interested in seeing what people would come up with regards to devices for pride flags.
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Apr 23, 2024 15:21
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:throwing "actually the Pride flags are abelist" into Tumblr like a pipe-bomb Oxyclean posted:I'd be certainly interested in seeing what people would come up with regards to devices for pride flags.
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Apr 23, 2024 17:38
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There is great untapped potential in incorporating optical illusions in flags.
Platystemon fucked around with this message at 11:05 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 10:32
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Platystemon posted:There is great untapped potential in incorporating optical illusions in flags. There isn't much that I feel I need
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Apr 24, 2024 12:03
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May 3, 2024 19:00
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George Washington is not impressed.
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May 3, 2024 19:03
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Try drawing that one, kids
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May 6, 2024 20:09
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They put Getty Images on a flag.
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May 6, 2024 20:20
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Phlegmish posted:I would go one step further and say they have to look like they were drawn by a kindergartener As long as we're discussing disgraceful flags, I think the Houthi banner is worth mentioning. It certainly takes the cake in terms of disgracefulness. Just look at the loving thing. It is the antithesis of the art of vexillology. It is exactly everything a flag should not be. First and foremost, not only is the text present, but the meaning it conveys is diabolical in every sense of the word (look up a translation if unsure; you're in for a treat). With that said, writing on a flag is usually excusable if calligraphic (such as in Afghanistan and the KSA). But the abomination shown below absolutely does not meet this criteria, especially with that jarring font and bizarre color scheme, which I guess pays homage to Islam (green) and the Hashemites (red), but that doesn't change the fact that it could likely destroy a retina unfortunate enough to gaze at it long enough. It truly looks like whoever designed this thing did so by slamming their hollow skull against a keyboard when selecting a font in 1998 MS Word, which, in retrospect, is probably not a very farfetched assessment historically. So yeah. gently caress this thing, and gently caress whoever was bold enough to bring this disgrace into existence. Waddle Bourgeoidee fucked around with this message at 02:42 on May 8, 2024 |
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May 8, 2024 02:34
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Yeah the North Yemen flag is far superior both vexillologically and in terms of the message, it does make you wonder under what circumstances they were abandoned
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May 8, 2024 03:16
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BonHair posted:Plus, unless it's something like Ireland Vs Italy, the flags are still reasonably distinct for most colour blind people. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said about Chad and Romania. I'm not remotely color blind or impaired visually, but I still can't distinguish between them. And if the purpose of a flag is to symbolically communicate a message about a country's unique, distinct culture and government, then nations hellbent on using unoriginal tricolors (such as the two aforementioned) completely and utterly fail in this regard. This is precisely why flags before the Dutch Revolt (which popularized tricolors as a symbol of democracy) were so much better: even though medieval designs may have been too busy or detailed (i.e., couldn't be drawn by a child), at least they were unique and gave insight into their culture, which is something invaluable that we have mostly lost in modern society. P.S. Romania and Chad actually did acknowledge the similarity of their flags: Wikipedia posted:In 2004, there were unconfirmed media reports that Chad had called on the United Nations to look into the issue, prompting then Romanian president Ion Iliescu to make a public statement that his country would not give up the flag. BBC News quoted Iliescu as stating that "The tricolour belongs to us. We will not give up the tricolour."
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May 8, 2024 03:37
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Guavanaut posted:Yeah the North Yemen flag is far superior both vexillologically and in terms of the message, it does make you wonder under what circumstances they were abandoned I want to say I'm glad they abandoned it since it just looks like another Ba'ath flag, but it's definitely better than what replaced it in 1990. Honestly, they should've just gone with the South Yemen flag. "Oh, but what about its communist imagery?" Shut the gently caress up; it's a badass design. Waddle Bourgeoidee fucked around with this message at 03:54 on May 8, 2024 |
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May 8, 2024 03:49
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we are only 3 days and 2 hours away from minnesota's new flag being officially in use 
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May 8, 2024 04:04
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Lutha Mahtin posted:we are only 3 days and 2 hours away from minnesota's new flag being officially in use Thank god. We're officially one step closer to a nation untethered by the sacrilege of seals on a bedsheet. Now we just need Maine to revert to their old design. Waddle Bourgeoidee fucked around with this message at 17:22 on May 8, 2024 |
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May 8, 2024 04:17
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Waddle Bourgeoidee posted:With that said, writing on a flag is usually excusable if calligraphic It's not so much that writing is okay if it's caligraphy but that the muslim world developed their own system of symbology independent of Europe. In their earlier days, they weren't into most visual depictions of things in general, but even now they maintain that taboo with things important to the religion, which is a problem for states that like to define themselves by their religious identity. Conveniently, Arabic is a very pretty written language, and they've gotten good at making it very artistic when they just pull out Quran quotes as symbols. Except for the ISIS flag, that one just looks like absolute trash compared to all the other examples of Arabic I've seen. The Houthi banner uses a weird spiky font for some reason. No idea what's up with that.
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May 8, 2024 04:34
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You're arguing for the Arabic equivalent of putting Tolkien elven script on a flag. It's an ethos, but are you entirely sure about this?
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May 8, 2024 04:45
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SlothfulCobra posted:It's not so much that writing is okay if it's caligraphy but that the muslim world developed their own system of symbology independent of Europe. In their earlier days, they weren't into most visual depictions of things in general Good point. Would you attribute this European desire for heraldry on flags (instead of writing) to the widespread adoption of the star and crescent as a symbol of Islam in the contemporary Western world? Of course, the Ottoman Empire's annexation of North Africa and the Middle East had something to do with it. However, that doesn't account for countries like Turkmenistan or Uzbekistan, which were never under Ottoman rule and don't have strong ties to Istanbul (where the star and crescent originated). It just seems the popularity of this symbol outside of the Balkans and Middle East occurred as an attempt to whitewash Islam and portray it in an easily digestible way for Westerners that could not be achieved through the Shahada or (as you cited) the seal of Muhammad. Waddle Bourgeoidee fucked around with this message at 05:13 on May 8, 2024 |
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May 8, 2024 05:11
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Waddle Bourgeoidee posted:As long as we're discussing disgraceful flags, I think the Houthi banner is worth mentioning. It certainly takes the cake in terms of disgracefulness. Just look at the loving thing. It is the antithesis of the art of vexillology. It is exactly everything a flag should not be. I am liking this style of Angry Vexillological Goon Nerd review, and would have to agree that it's a pretty poo poo flag if they actually fly it in public
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May 8, 2024 12:30
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Prescriptive vexillology got me good. (Bro confused vexillography and vexillology lmao.)
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May 8, 2024 12:35
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The Houthi flag is immediately recognizable and communicates exactly what the people who designed it and fly it wish to communicate. You may not like it, but this is what peak vexillology looks like.
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May 8, 2024 13:34
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Absent any interpretation or context, the flag for Rojava/AANES looks like it should be the certification mark for an agricultural ministry or international standards organisation. The old one was pretty good, with the Kurdish colours but not a tricolor (though they have one of those too): 
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May 8, 2024 15:27
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Platystemon posted:The Houthi flag is immediately recognizable and communicates exactly what the people who designed it and fly it wish to communicate. Be that as it may, it does so in a very lazy and unconvincing manner. i.e., instead of showing us their steadfast submission to the Abrahamic god through compelling imagery (such as an Islamic star, perhaps?), they simply tell us it via an abhorrent typeface, which is uncreative and boring at best. Ultimately, your message is only as good as your ability to share it, and it is for this exact reason that the North American Vexillological Association cites the following as one of their five rules of flag design: quote:4. No Lettering or Seals. Never use writing of any kind or an organization's seal.
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May 8, 2024 15:36
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I think more flags should include "Death to America", and I'm warming up to "Death to Israel". God is great and victory to Islam is eh, and cursing the Jews is definitely not cool, especially since you've already mentioned Israel. 2/5.
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May 8, 2024 16:04
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Honestly I'm pretty tired of the NA vexillological association being treated as the supreme authority on the matter. I've seen a number of outlets over the years basically just reprint their rules and call it a day. I think their rules are largely good, but there are many exceptions possible. Especially the rule that a child should be able to draw a flag. Kids suck at drawing and this would limit organizations to. All but the simplest flags. Want bad flags? These are from the annual meetings of NAVA, each of which gets its own custom flag as made by self described experts.   
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May 8, 2024 16:12
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whoa... almost
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May 8, 2024 16:21
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Count Roland posted:Honestly I'm pretty tired of the NA vexillological association being treated as the supreme authority on the matter. I've seen a number of outlets over the years basically just reprint their rules and call it a day. Gotta begrudgingly agree with this one. Oftentimes, the simpler a flag is, the less distinct and more unoriginal it becomes, which is the cardinal sin of vexillology, as it deprives a flag of character and consequently reflects poorly on the culture, society, or organization it represents. Hence, more support for returning to the "golden age of vexillology," when elaborate designs were not only tolerated but conventional.
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May 8, 2024 16:54
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Stealing this for my badminton league.
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May 8, 2024 19:27
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Faces on the hoist side are all going 
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May 8, 2024 20:27
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The Confederate States of America provide a case study in bad vexillology. Their first flag looked enough like the flag of the USA to cause confusion in the first land battle of the war. This is properly the flag to which the “stars & bars” should refer.  The military starts flying the rebel flag we know today and never looks back. Except that historically the flag was almost always square, a fact lost on the people who cry about their imagined heritage & history to distract from their present hate.  Meanwhile, the Confederate Congress spends two years on the “stainless banner”. This flag is mega lol because when it hangs limp, it appears to be a white flag of surrender.  So they take a couple more years to approve the third national flag, with a robust red trailing edge to overcome this embarrassment.  In principle, this flies for an entire month before their army in the field surrenders with a literal dish towel at Appomattox Court House.
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May 8, 2024 20:55
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Waddle Bourgeoidee posted:Good point. Would you attribute this European desire for heraldry on flags (instead of writing) to the widespread adoption of the star and crescent as a symbol of Islam in the contemporary Western world? Of course, the Ottoman Empire's annexation of North Africa and the Middle East had something to do with it. However, that doesn't account for countries like Turkmenistan or Uzbekistan, which were never under Ottoman rule and don't have strong ties to Istanbul (where the star and crescent originated). It just seems the popularity of this symbol outside of the Balkans and Middle East occurred as an attempt to whitewash Islam and portray it in an easily digestible way for Westerners that could not be achieved through the Shahada or (as you cited) the seal of Muhammad. It's because the Ottoman Sultan was also the Caliph of Sunni Islam.
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May 8, 2024 21:35
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I think it's also worth putting in perspective how flags are actually used. We in the west expect every nation to have a flag, and I think it's purposefully provocative that the Houthis chose something so incendiary as their symbol for the west. Internet people will collate a lot of data but not actually check it much, and seeing how the flags are actively treated in their real settings can be enlightening. Looking at articles where the Houthis are having big celebrations, they don't really seem to care that much about their nominal official flag. It's there, but not in the position of greatest prominence. In a big 2013 celebration, there's a lot of flags, but they're mostly not the Houthi banner. I assume those flags are more about the prophet Muhammad.  At a more specifically nationalistic occasion, their military parades, yeah there's Houthi banners around, but more prominent is this tricolor, which I guess provokes the question of how the Houthis even generally see themselves as a state in the ongoing Yemeni civil war. That's the flag of Yemen, although also the black, white, and red tricolor is more broadly an arab symbol that a lot of arab nations use with little variations, it first came from Egypt.  https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/yemen-houthis-flex-military-muscle-parade-riyadh-seeks-ceasefire-2023-09-21/ https://www.overtdefense.com/2022/0...ilitary-parade/ I guess also looking at pictures where there's a forest of arabic text flags also illustrates another thing about text on flags: It's kind of meaningless to people who don't know the language, and keeping text on the flag is sort of an insular move because it's way less identifiable outside the arab world (even if within the arab world it is a stronger declaration with less room for alternate interpretations compared to traditional symbolism). I think there are some countries that alternately take text off to indicate that they're trying to integrate into the broader international community or put text on when they're doubling down on more insular movements like Arab nationalism or islamic fundamentalism. Hezbollah's flag looks kinda rad even if I don't agree with the organization. 
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May 8, 2024 22:00
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Byzantine posted:It's because the Ottoman Sultan was also the Caliph of Sunni Islam. Worth noting that the ottomans only started consistently using the Cresent moon flag fairly late in their history, after the Napoleonic wars, because all the other European countries had started using flags and it was making them look bad at diplomatic events. Before that They normally used a pole with a whole bunch of horse tails tied to the top (called a tug),
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May 8, 2024 22:45
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Waddle Bourgeoidee posted:Be that as it may, it does so in a very lazy and unconvincing manner. i.e., instead of showing us their steadfast submission to the Abrahamic god through compelling imagery (such as an Islamic star, perhaps?), they simply tell us it via an abhorrent typeface, which is uncreative and boring at best. Nerd
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May 8, 2024 23:56
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Thank you for offering this profoundly constructive and insightful dialogue. Its sheer depth and insightfulness have permanently altered our understanding of flags and the intricate details therein. Now that you're done, shouldn't you return to GBS? Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
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May 9, 2024 00:35
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Count Roland posted:I think their rules are largely good, but there are many exceptions possible. Especially the rule that a child should be able to draw a flag. Kids suck at drawing and this would limit organizations to. All but the simplest flags. "Child should be able to draw it" rule is massively misunderstood. US flag still counts even though the drawing will almost certainly have the wrong number of stars and has a good chance of the wrong number of stripes, for example.
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May 9, 2024 00:36
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