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Thoguh posted:US Universities get out for the summer in like a week or two all they had to do was let the kids camp out for a few nights and then they would have dispersed on their own after finals. Do you want the media to have to talk about mass graves in Gaza?
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Apr 24, 2024 22:18
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atelier morgan posted:this sort of thing happening to people on the street is one thing, but columbia is an ivy, berkeley might as well be: these are youth with resources and connections. historically, these are the exact sort of people that are very beneficial to revolutionary forces when radicalized into traitors to their class and i think that's still likely the case today Thoguh posted:US Universities get out for the summer in like a week or two all they had to do was let the kids camp out for a few nights and then they would have dispersed on their own after finals. Yeah, this is what I mean about the problem. MacIntyre suggests that in the absence of a shared normative concept or moral authority which can arbitrate between them, the respective parties in disagreement argue with one another endlessly by employing their incommensurable normative concepts to establish the legitimacy of their own argument and determine the wrongheadedness of their opponents. Logically, such a situation reaches an impasse in which the moral issue in question has become systematically unsettlable. "From our rival conclusions", MacIntyre writes, "we can argue back to our rival premises; but when we do arrive at our premises argument ceases and the invocation of one premise against another becomes a matter of pure assertion and counter-assertion", but genocide is the one thing that doesn't work for! Outside of the Israelis, there can't be rival conclusions, or rival premises. This is not a systemically unsettlable issue, it's like the one issue that's still has a shared normative concept. Which, I think, is why "it's complicated" was Israel's lifeline for years, and then all of the lying and atrocity propaganda since Oct 7. The beheaded babies and lurid tales of sexual assault bought time and clouded the moral question. However, basically, Israel ran out the clock, and now they have created a situation where support for them is inarguably and undeniably immoral, but liberalism in the west only functions by quibbling over and denying morality. So the west had this beautiful End of History, that in material terms was unravelling, but as power no longer really relied on a material base, and politics didn't engage with class or questions of material conditions, they could keep it going as long as both the centre right and centre left could frame themselves as moral, arguing in endless disagreement over abstract questions of morality, with no moral authority. Like, Fukuyama expressly says that's his dream. Endlessly arguing over Gay rights and abortion was the idyllic future of politics, that get's left out of the hagiography. Both sides needed to take one side on an unsettable moral issue, and they'd play musical chairs, forever, trading power as elections were run over the finer points of it. Again, Fukuyama thought this was great. Well, there's no Christian right wing position that will say without equivocation "I like genocide and it's good". There's no liberal secular humanist position that can take the same stance. They'll deny supporting genocide, or deny what they're supporting is genocide, obviously, but they can't take a moral stance that's openly pro genocide. When they are facing an opponent, the default is to frame their side as moral versus the immoral other, as discussed above. Only the college kids have such an obviously better claim, they're opposing genocide, that there's no way to get on the other side other than "nuh uh". The problem is that "No it's not genocide" is not a positive moral argument, it's still unbalanced towards the kids. So the only way they could have moved forward was to ignore both the kids and the genocide. For a bunch of reasons, the Democrats - and centre-left throughout the west - couldn't stomach that, and now... idk, it's a profound crisis.
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Apr 24, 2024 22:19
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PawParole posted:Do you want the media to have to talk about mass graves in Gaza? do you mean the mass grave of the 40 beheaded babies at the hands of kkkkkhamas? sincerely though, i don't think the US media would cover the mass graves in any even 10% serious way no matter the circumstances or distractions available. they would manufacture them if needed
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Apr 24, 2024 22:20
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They’re deploying mounted police in Austin: https://x.com/btnewsroom/status/1783237535868563826?s=46
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Apr 24, 2024 22:22
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Remember when the Russian Army having procedures on the books for the quick mass internment of recovered remains after combat, until individual burials could be organized and the ICRC notified, was evidence of their immediate intent to commit genocide? These are the sort of contradictions that can't be maintained. I agree, though, that because of how unsustainable the story is for liberal self conception, discussion of it is intolerable. You cannot take both sides, morally, of handcuffed civilians in mass graves. You can only deny and ignore it.
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Apr 24, 2024 22:25
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Shageletic posted:Yeah I was a lib by default as a kid. skill issue
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Apr 24, 2024 22:26
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:At the opening of Alasdair MacIntyre’s seminal text, After Virtue, he poses "a disquieting suggestion" for the field of moral philosophy and contemporary society more broadly. (...) This was a very good post. Thanks for making it.
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Apr 24, 2024 22:37
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Pomeroy posted:They’re deploying mounted police in Austin: https://x.com/btnewsroom/status/1783237535868563826?s=46 what is APD?
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Apr 24, 2024 22:38
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Austin Police Department
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Apr 24, 2024 22:40
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The governor being a colossal Nazi as usual in response. https://twitter.com/gregabbott_tx/status/1783237229252346194
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Apr 24, 2024 22:42
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Remember what Refaat the poet said before they murdered him with his family. https://twitter.com/itranslate123/status/1719701312990830934
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Apr 24, 2024 22:45
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Humbled by the power of Palestinian survivors and fighters, and the protesters. Fuckin DTA DTI
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Apr 24, 2024 22:46
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:So the only way they could have moved forward was to ignore both the kids and the genocide. For a bunch of reasons, the Democrats - and centre-left throughout the west - couldn't stomach that, and now... idk, it's a profound crisis. The student protests are an incredibly safe issue to focus on. It's an easy excuse to have the commentariat focused thousands of miles away from the genocide. Israel is too close a focus, there's too much contact with reality that way. Not to mention that the Israeli press offices aren't doing themselves any favors at the moment. Give those guys a breather, focus attention on the most harmless of social issues involving peacefully protesting students and social media, and the problem can hopefully be put off for a bit longer.
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Apr 24, 2024 22:49
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More international student solidarity against the genocide https://twitter.com/PeoplesForumNYC/status/1783248124170919948?t=K3sw0NynGcmWhYNxsJdJyg&s=19 quote:From the Arab and Maghreb Youth Student Front Against Normalization and in Support of Peoples’ Causes
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Apr 24, 2024 22:51
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Outside of the Israelis, there can't be rival conclusions, or rival premises. This is not a systemically unsettlable issue, it's like the one issue that's still has a shared normative concept. Which, I think, is why "it's complicated" was Israel's lifeline for years, and then all of the lying and atrocity propaganda since Oct 7. The beheaded babies and lurid tales of sexual assault bought time and clouded the moral question. quote:Remember when the Russian Army having procedures on the books for the quick mass internment of recovered remains after combat, until individual burials could be organized and the ICRC notified, was evidence of their immediate intent to commit genocide? This also goes to the heart of the way that the West and Western media sells the western hegemony. as we see here in c-spam with our media literacy, it’s all predicated on the West being the Good Guys (who can at most make the occasional mistake), and conveniently, the guys who happen to be our geopolitical enemies at the time also just so happen to all be evil. All, again, couched in this language of “human rights” and “freedom” - the evil countries hate our human rights, only the west will respect freedom or whatever. Slaves in Xinjiang from the evil Chinese who hate Muslims, Iran hates women, Russia hates gay people, whatever. And, these evil countries don’t even respect laws either. But with Israel this all breaks down: we can all see with our own eyes that it’s a genocide, Israel are not actually the good guys no matter what the media tries to tell you, and we’re quite obviously being lied too. Not so much freedom here in the Good Countries now. And, this is where they’ve hosed it, once people start going “oh yeah, they lied to us wildly about Israel” they will start thinking that actually maybe these Chinese/Iranians/Russians/etc aren’t so evil and that, hang on a second, that’s all lurid lies as well. (or maybe everyone knew this in the 60s already and this is wishful thinking, but death to America and may the empire collapse under its own contradictions)
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Apr 24, 2024 22:53
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the zionist entity!!! (death to it) 
carcinofuck has issued a correction as of 23:03 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 22:58
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PawParole posted:Do you want the media to have to talk about mass graves in Gaza? CNN just started covering the mass graves today on their broadcast. I hadn't seen anything else in the US media before that.
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Apr 24, 2024 23:02
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George H.W. oval office posted:I just got off a plane where half the people clapped on the landing and I open this thread to see that Hogwarts post. Maybe we deserve death actually? I see you haven't been keeping up on the Boeing news
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Apr 24, 2024 23:06
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dti dta
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Apr 24, 2024 23:13
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Mr SuperAwesome posted:This also goes to the heart of the way that the West and Western media sells the western hegemony. as we see here in c-spam with our media literacy, it’s all predicated on the West being the Good Guys (who can at most make the occasional mistake), and conveniently, the guys who happen to be our geopolitical enemies at the time also just so happen to all be evil. All, again, couched in this language of “human rights” and “freedom” - the evil countries hate our human rights, only the west will respect freedom or whatever. Slaves in Xinjiang from the evil Chinese who hate Muslims, Iran hates women, Russia hates gay people, whatever. And, these evil countries don’t even respect laws either. Don't forget that while liberalism requires perfectly smooth brains, some people eventually catch on that hey this is the 5th Hitler in 20 years and begin to question stuff
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Apr 24, 2024 23:13
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https://x.com/dril/status/1783257946954268688?s=46
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Apr 24, 2024 23:14
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Complications posted:The student protests are an incredibly safe issue to focus on. It's an easy excuse to have the commentariat focused thousands of miles away from the genocide. Israel is too close a focus, there's too much contact with reality that way. Not to mention that the Israeli press offices aren't doing themselves any favors at the moment. Give those guys a breather, focus attention on the most harmless of social issues involving peacefully protesting students and social media, and the problem can hopefully be put off for a bit longer. this logic works when youre talking about poor kids who nobody cares when they get plowed back into the dirt, like blm, but not when it comes to the children of the extremely rich and powerful
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Apr 24, 2024 23:20
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Mr SuperAwesome posted:This also goes to the heart of the way that the West and Western media sells the western hegemony. as we see here in c-spam with our media literacy, it’s all predicated on the West being the Good Guys (who can at most make the occasional mistake), and conveniently, the guys who happen to be our geopolitical enemies at the time also just so happen to all be evil. All, again, couched in this language of “human rights” and “freedom” - the evil countries hate our human rights, only the west will respect freedom or whatever. Slaves in Xinjiang from the evil Chinese who hate Muslims, Iran hates women, Russia hates gay people, whatever. And, these evil countries don’t even respect laws either. Complications posted:The student protests are an incredibly safe issue to focus on. It's an easy excuse to have the commentariat focused thousands of miles away from the genocide. Israel is too close a focus, there's too much contact with reality that way. Not to mention that the Israeli press offices aren't doing themselves any favors at the moment. Give those guys a breather, focus attention on the most harmless of social issues involving peacefully protesting students and social media, and the problem can hopefully be put off for a bit longer. I think these posts compliment each other, because Mr SuperAwesome identifies all the reasons why focusing on something else is urgent, and Complications shows how the students fit into that. Ideally, for the Democrats and Republicans alike, I would extrapolate that to the centre-left and centre-right throughout the west, regardless of which party is in power, painting the students in terms of Antifa or something is vital, because since at least the WTO protests it's been accepted that "student radicals" are prima facie immoral, or morally unserious, and that the really moral stance is taking a principled stand against their outrageous demands. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loPyiGgki4Q So, yeah, turning this into a "crazy kids on campus" story is the best way to do it, because who the protesters are, rather than what they are protesting, ideally, settles the moral question for the great mass of middle class liberals. Violence is acceptable, and moral, harm reduction when directed against them because their unseriousness or irresponsible demands represent a greater danger. Not danger in terms of socialist opposition to the socioeconomic system, as previous left wing radicals*, but in Clintonian terms, a moral hazard. So you can see how the Democrats, and western centre-left, already have a way to make beating them up the greater good. It also means that class issues remain settled, so this has been their preferred strategy. We're the grown up adults in charge, we're forcing the kids to take their medicine, letting a toddler make decisions is dangerous, and sometimes the right thing to do is spank them. but This can only work if the issue is tightly compartmentalized. I don't think most people knew in clear, moral, terms what WTO and NAFTA would do to the working class. Moreover, liberalism exists to turn what is fundamentally a moral question, "how are resources allocated within our society", into something discussed without morality, and where using the language of morality is considered unserious. That's for the simple reason that "what is a fair way to divide things?" and "should people starve or be homeless?" in moral terms, have very clear answers and they aren't the current system. Therefore, it's all about rationality, it's complicated, it can't be a black and white thing, it's not about human morality anyway, the invisible hand of the free market decides, and therefore there can be no injustice, etc. All of that to say, previous protestors could be handled within this belief system. WTO, Iraq War protests (the largest in human history), Occupy and BLM, were either deliberately not treated as moral issues, or the language of morality was made meaningless, as MacIntyre describes, through saying "it's complicated", refusing to agree on a common standard of morality, for anything relating to the economy obfuscating cause and effect, and on and on. Even with BLM, efforts were made to create moral ambiguity. That's what the whole conversation about Michael Brown became on a micro level, and then in the 2020 protests on a macro level every trick in the book was deployed to confuse the issue, take it away from being a clear moral issue "Do Black Lives Matter, or not?", and create the impasse MacIntyre detests but Fukuyama openly revels in. So, I agree that covering the student protests is greatly preferable to covering Israel, but as the students are protesting Israel, pains have to be taken so that what they are protesting is never clearly presented to the audience. Which, now that I have reasoned this out, makes framing the protests as antisemitic gatherings one of the only acceptable courses of action. Everybody agrees that antisemitism is morally bad. If you heard antisemites were gathering for a rally to express antisemitism, you would also agree that's bad and harmful. Therefore the use of force against them is that moral, harm reducing, action that gives the centre-left and centre-right their legitimacy. It's like the one thing where beyond even the "both sides" thing and moral impasse stupefying observers and preventing a clear moral decision, you would expect them to side with the establishment. Everybody thought Charlottesville was bad, it deflated the alt-right in public life, a blow from which it has never recovered. So... yeah, I can see why stories of violence against Jewish students by these campus protesters, and the protests only being about antisemitism is the best way to keep attention off Israel, obscure the issues at hand, frame police violence as being harm reduction done for moral reasons, and preserve some of the stability of the system. I can also see why TikTok, specifically, has been singled out as a threat to this working. * The reason suppressing counterculture could still be framed in moral terms was an appeal to middle class tradition. To the middle class, like ancient Romans, manners and morals are interchangeable ideas, "for they have the same root and are in their essence identical." Kids with long hair were inherently dangerous and inherently immoral, whatever they actually believed, and to whatever degree they actually opposed the system. DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 23:26 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 23:21
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140 mass graves...oh my god
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Apr 24, 2024 23:24
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https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/1783132182447272441?t=fyPdyXzLgXkcWcoiQaabaw&s=19 The Zionists are digging their own graves
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Apr 24, 2024 23:24
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Atrocious Joe posted:CNN just started covering the mass graves today on their broadcast. I hadn't seen anything else in the US media before that. yeah the bbc mentioned it today in a kind of “lots of bodies have been found in mass graves, huh? kinda weird” and then the utterly batshit former labour MP turned IDF spokesman (really) press statement / excuse that the idf found the bodies, dug them up and put them back again with the greatest “respect” followed with clips of just bodies just dumped in bin bags just further compounding the cognitive dissonance
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Apr 24, 2024 23:28
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tristeham posted:palestinians are badass Would you say they are... for the win?
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Apr 24, 2024 23:29
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Atrocious Joe posted:https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/1783132182447272441?t=fyPdyXzLgXkcWcoiQaabaw&s=19 You know how you could time Ukraine's actions based on news cycles? I can't help but wonder if Israel, which surely relies on western support and positive news cycles as much as Ukraine (though with a higher floor at which support will be provided regardless), also makes moves towards regional war based on things hitting the news cycle that could weaken support for Israel? It's obviously also their own strategic calculus and the strategic dead end they're in, as well as their own domestic politics, similarly in a dead end, but I wonder if doing things that causes to US to chain itself to Israel more than coincidentally happen when news that looks bad for Israel hits the headlines. e: I didn't see this is happen as they plan to move on Rafah as well, and as those student protests are catching fire.  Wann zeigt auch der letzte Würfel eine Sechs? DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 23:33 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 23:30
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Nonsense posted:Greg Abbott sent cowards The same Greg Abbott that posted this in 2019 https://x.com/gregabbott_tx/status/1137875109362974724?s=46 And compare that to todays: https://x.com/gregabbott_tx/status/1783237229252346194?s=46 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 24, 2024 23:44
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Which is a problem impacting all areas of history right now. that donna zuck article is hilarious we myst rescue cicero and cato from the right! lmao, bitch
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Apr 24, 2024 23:49
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just got back edited because of actionable mossad threats i say swears online has issued a correction as of 00:08 on Apr 25, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 23:50
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Owlbear Camus posted:In order for me to write poetry that isn’t political
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Apr 24, 2024 23:55
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Real hurthling! posted:that donna zuck article is hilarious She won, like, so many awards for it. If you could get on the anti-Trump track in that window of time, you could really hit the jackpot. Her only other article up to that point, if I recall, was about clothing in Aristophanes. She became the face of the entire discipline by opposing the Bad Orange Man and comparing him to various "bad guys" in ancient history normies know the names of (but not Julius Caesar). I think Caligula was her fave, despite it making no loving sense.
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Apr 24, 2024 23:58
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i say swears online posted:just got back Great photo, hope they didn't hassle you. American cops getting too fat for their body armour to protect them is funny, at least. 
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Apr 25, 2024 00:02
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Halloween Jack posted:How is Israel going to exist in 50 years? Or 20? That's the funny part. Climate change will render the entire levant uninhabitable by the end of the century.
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Apr 25, 2024 00:04
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Great photo, hope they didn't hassle you.  well i'll be damned
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Apr 25, 2024 00:05
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i say swears online posted:just got back hey pls don't post high resolution images of people's faces at a protest when mossad and other state agencies has explicitly said they're going to ruin the careers and lives of people at these protests
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Apr 25, 2024 00:06
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is that a thing? i had no idea, there were hundreds of people filming and taking pictures
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Apr 25, 2024 00:07
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Owlbear Camus posted:In order for me to write poetry that isn’t political
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DJJIB-DJDCT posted:Great photo, hope they didn't hassle you. He can still beat the poo poo out of nonviolent protestors with that physique.
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