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My only problem with X-Men Red (2018) was how easily Namor joined Jean's team
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Apr 28, 2024 09:32
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Sephyr posted:But we're talking about the guy that murdered Rachel Summers to save the life of a Chaotic Evil soul-draining immortal psychopath dominatrix Selene with a body count that rivals that of cholera. So sometimes it feels more like he's just trying to hog the title of edgy murdery guy all to himself, since he has killed dozens of hapless goons since saving that particular mass-murderer. The "he kills Rachel to save her from killing Selene" scene is one of the worst and weirdest Wolverine character moments for sure. It just makes zero sense. It was setup for the cancelled Phoenix solo series, from memory, so the X-Men had to do something that would take Rachel out of the book without her wanting to come back, which is why it's so extra and bizarre. But then the series where Rachel was meant to react and figure out her feelings about it got cancelled, so it's a non-sequitur of Wolverine killing a teenage girl and then a while later she shows up in Excalibur.
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Apr 28, 2024 11:19
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what's more, later stories established that selene can't be killed permanently. way to go, logan.
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Apr 28, 2024 12:59
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  I never really thought about it - and admittedly I don't know much about the (apparently highly inconsistent) relationship between Magneto and his kids, let alone Xavier and Legion which I know even less about - but these two issues came pretty close together and just made me wonder if part of Xavier's and Magneto's eternal bond is being idols to mutantkind, but failures in their personal relationships with their actual children.
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Apr 28, 2024 14:59
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https://twitter.com/legotrillermoth/status/1784510041824903572?t=GoQ-WT4y-sVakybZR6xXBg&s=19 They are gonna treat Krakoa era in-universe like we in real world treated NFT hype
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Apr 28, 2024 17:07
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There were three Hellfire Galas so Krakoa lasted 3 years at minimum.
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Apr 28, 2024 18:21
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NikkolasKing posted:
Wanda and Pietro being retconned to not be mutants or Magneto's kids was one of the worst things that came from the movies and the attempts to downplay the X-Men.
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Apr 28, 2024 18:23
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fatherboxx posted:https://twitter.com/legotrillermoth/status/1784510041824903572?t=GoQ-WT4y-sVakybZR6xXBg&s=19
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Apr 28, 2024 18:33
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well part of orchis' campaign was poisoning all the mutant super drugs and telling the world is was a mutant plot to kill all the humans
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Apr 28, 2024 18:46
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Those of us who don't want Krakoa to end need a slogan like "Magneto/Cyclops was right", and maybe a logo that would look good on a t-shirt. Krakoa Lives? There's gotta be a good one but I can't think of it.
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Apr 28, 2024 19:58
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nemesis_hub posted:Those of us who don't want Krakoa to end need a slogan like "Magneto/Cyclops was right", and maybe a logo that would look good on a t-shirt. Krakoa Lives? There's gotta be a good one but I can't think of it.
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Apr 28, 2024 20:37
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Krakoa Immortal
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Apr 28, 2024 20:49
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You can't really force something like that. Magneto Was Right was directly from the books.
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Apr 28, 2024 20:54
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Keep on Krakoa'n
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Apr 28, 2024 21:00
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MonsterEnvy posted:There were three Hellfire Galas so Krakoa lasted 3 years at minimum. If it was ever even said to be a yearly thing, which I don't think it was, then that'll be something retconned super fast. Because there's no way Krakoa lasted three years in universe.
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Apr 28, 2024 21:17
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maybe it was a quarterly gala
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Apr 28, 2024 21:22
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X-O posted:If it was ever even said to be a yearly thing, which I don't think it was, then that'll be something retconned super fast. Because there's no way Krakoa lasted three years in universe.
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Apr 28, 2024 21:22
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The babies also aren't canon
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Apr 28, 2024 23:44
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MonsterEnvy posted:Wanda and Pietro being retconned to not be mutants or Magneto's kids was one of the worst things that came from the movies and the attempts to downplay the X-Men. Wait, that was as a result of the Fox and MCU situation? I had no idea. I've heard about the "Inhumans replace Mutants" agenda but I didn't know the Maximoffs not being Magneto's kids was a result of that whole "synergy between movies and comics" thing.
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Apr 29, 2024 01:07
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Hellfire Gala was meant to be yearly in universe. Once the Krakoa era was established, they just kind of let time move and not worry about the day to day. Though, I guess none of the kids really aged.
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Apr 29, 2024 01:08
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I'll never not stop laughing that Jubilee's kid is still a toddler even though she's had him for like 15 years. And he's been on panel with Meggan's daughter who was born after Jubilee's kid, and she's already like three years old or whatever. Comic books!
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Apr 29, 2024 01:15
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Saoshyant posted:I'll never not stop laughing that Jubilee's kid is still a toddler even though she's had him for like 15 years. Jubilee's kid is actually a dragon now! At least the last time he was seen.
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Apr 29, 2024 01:18
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X-O posted:Jubilee's kid is actually a dragon now! At least the last time he was seen. He can change back when he's not in the fantasy land thing. That doesn't explain the age thing, regardless. Edit: good lord, I didn't read the other Tini Howard books after the first Excalibur and I very much hope they didn't let him stranded behind in the fantasy land thing just so Jubilee would be "unsaddled" of that "baggage". One of my favorite moments in that Age of X-Man storyline is when Jubes breaks her programming and starts blowing the gently caress out of everything when she realizes her kid was left behind in the real world. Saoshyant fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Apr 29, 2024 |
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Apr 29, 2024 01:21
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I know Jubilee is in Dead X-Men right now but I've not read it. But I'm pretty sure Shogo is still stranded as a dragon and has been for a while now.
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Apr 29, 2024 01:30
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There was a "reason" given for leaving Shogo behind, but I forget what it was. Honestly I hate that bit Jubilee lore and am glad he's gone.
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Apr 29, 2024 02:07
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To be fair, given all the poo poo going on after the Hellfire Gala, it might be safer to leave Shogo in Otherworld with some friendly elves. Betsy has also been painfully absent, which is odd for the leader of an X-team. Also, Meggan's family is adorable and should be around more. Wasn't she heavily implied pregnant at some point?
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Apr 29, 2024 02:07
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Betsy's been featured in Unlimited X-Men on the Marvel app along with a bunch of others
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Apr 29, 2024 02:12
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https://tombrevoort.substack.com/p/109-no-frillsquote:Pedro J. Caro It kinda reminds me of what I've heard of why Claremont "hates" Cyclops after the whole decision with Madie and baby Nathan. Basically, Xavier has been given so many lovely deeds to his name, he must forever be poo poo.
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Apr 29, 2024 05:05
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At a certain point the way you "rehabilitate" a character is just ignore the terrible poo poo some other writer wrote. Batman used to carry a gun and would kill people, Peter Parker has slapped his wife an equal number of times as Hank Pym.
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Apr 29, 2024 05:42
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Yeah, like nobody really internalizes "Hey remember Cyclops, that guy that cheated on his wife and abandoned her and his son, then went on to cheat on the woman he left her for?". No, he's the boy scout. Why? Because they largely just ignore it and move on. That's all it really takes. Xavier is morally sketchy because we only show you and remind you of the bad things he's done, but Magneto is actually morally complex because we ignore all the totally unforgivable poo poo he's done like a million times in his past. 10 years from now someone could go on a run of Xavier being the bright eyed moralist again and Magneto could eat a baby, and that's what is real now. Comics.
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Apr 29, 2024 05:50
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Claremont seems like the kind of guy who hates everything he personally didn't right
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Apr 29, 2024 07:06
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Blockhouse posted:Claremont seems like the kind of guy who hates everything he personally didn't right He had to go along with the Cyclops thing because editorial demanded it. But he was right to hate it, I think. It's a real landmark moment for comics in a negative way - it established that no, you can't have this character's life change in a meaningful way, he must revert to the person he was in the 60s over and over again despite the fact that you've spent years writing stories about him changing. Before the "Maddy is a clone" retcon, the Cyclops story arc that runs through Claremont's Uncanny is really good. He loses Jean, grieves, meets someone new, steps down as leader of the X-Men, and starts a family. And this happens slowly, over years of comics, so he isn't shuffled off the board but gracefully moved into a new role as the culmination of years of character development. There was still room for him to show up and do superhero stuff, but he wasn't stuck being the same exact guy forever. Then editorial was like, hey, the fans want a book where the original X-Men team are back together just like in the 60s (despite the fact that the comics pre-Claremont were in such dire straits that the X-Men were not widely popular), kill all this stuff. I think more than any other single moment in superhero comics, the Cyclops retcon was definitional to the modern rule of "characters must eventually revert to the most iconic version of themselves". If it had gone a different way, we might have seen a lot more serial drama-style comics storytelling, because that was the tempo Claremont was setting before it, and Uncanny X-Men was ringing a lot of the changes in how comics were written at that time.
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Apr 29, 2024 23:52
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bob layton showed up, pitched a bad idea for a series that threw years of comics out the window for basically no reason, wrote it for 5 issues and then bounced leaving louise simonson to clean up the mess. what a legend.
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Apr 30, 2024 00:03
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Someone else had the idea for how to bring Jean back. I can't remember who, but they're a comic legend that I know I've read and enjoyed tons of their writing, but I'm still a little angry at that.
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Apr 30, 2024 00:54
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Alaois posted:bob layton showed up, pitched a bad idea for a series that threw years of comics out the window for basically no reason, wrote it for 5 issues and then bounced leaving louise simonson to clean up the mess. what a legend. lol Edit: not just all that but wanted a B-tier DAREDEVIL bad guy to be the new archenemy of the X-Men
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Apr 30, 2024 00:57
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Air Skwirl posted:Someone else had the idea for how to bring Jean back. I can't remember who, but they're a comic legend that I know I've read and enjoyed tons of their writing, but I'm still a little angry at that. Kurt Busiek.
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Apr 30, 2024 01:32
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Open Marriage Night posted:Kurt Busiek. I thought it was him, I just didn't want to accuse someone of something so horrible without being certain.
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Apr 30, 2024 01:40
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Alaois posted:bob layton showed up, pitched a bad idea for a series that threw years of comics out the window for basically no reason, wrote it for 5 issues and then bounced leaving louise simonson to clean up the mess. what a legend. The original five X-Men had been largely written out of Claremont's X-Men: Jean Grey had "died" back in 1980, and Cyclops quit the team soon after. He was still a recurring supporting character but had moved to Anchorage to live with his wife by 1983. He was given more of a role the following year in large part because then-Editor-in-Chief had selected Cyclops to be part of the comic event/toy line Marvel Superhero Secret Wars, but he still wasn't one of the "main" X-Men characters by 1985. Beast, Iceman, and Angel for their part had even less of a role in Claremont-era X-Men, and had bounced around to other titles, Beast in the Avengers, Iceman and Angel onto The Champions of Los Angeles, and later Angel was a supporting character in Dazzler. By 1983 60% of the Original 5 had reunited in The New Defenders, a book that was slowly dying and was set to be canceled in 1985. Marvel/Shooter wanted to do a third X-book, and Claremont/Nocenti/Simonson were against diluting the brand. So Mike Carlin (not in the X-Office) looked into how they could make an "X-Men book" separate from that. Bob Layton suggested reuniting the original X-Men, but since Jean Grey was dead he proposed having Dazzler be the fifth member (Dazzler's book was also about to be canceled). Initial memos about the series posted online awhile back suggest Madeline Pryor and Baby Nathan were supposed to be part of the title as well. The final issue of Dazzler even has Beast abruptly show up to rescue her from her nemeses and invite her to his new team "the X-Factor". Meanwhile Kurt Busiek (not yet a comics pro) had come up with the whole "Jean wasn't Phoenix, Phoenix just took her form" idea and espoused it in fanzines, Byrne read them and passed the idea along to X-Factor editor Mike Carlin, and they decided to bring back ALL of the original X-Men. This may have been intended as a helpful suggestion, or part of Byrne and Claremont's long-running feud. Both Byrne and Claremont were also mad at Jim Shooter for insisting they kill Jean Grey in the first place. Shooter decided that if they were going to do the "Classic X-Men" lineup that they might as well bring back Jean, and using the Busiek-via-Byrne retcon would ameliorate the reason Shooter insisted she be killed in the first place (it was THE PHOENIX that was a mass murderer, not Jean). They ended up doing the "Jean Grey is back!" story in Fantastic Four (written by Byrne, edited by Carlin) and Avengers (written by Stern, edited by Gruenwald) to avoid the angry Claremont/Nocenti/Simonson contingent. Claremont had gone from kind of annoyed that they were doing a mutant book without him to infuriated and ready to quit over the Jean Grey resurrection. Possibly as a consolation prize, they let Claremont rewrite bits of the return story to better align with what he was doing with Rachel Summers/Phoenix. Byrne was pissed off enough by Claremont interfering with "his" book that he quit FF/Marvel a few issues later. Layton for his part seemed to want to do a "Classic X-Men" team but was not thrilled about all of the drama surrounding the Jean Grey stuff and quit the book because it was turning into the locus of all sorts of feuds: Claremont vs. Byrne, Claremont vs. Shooter, Byrne vs. Shooter, etc. He's pretty low on the list of people to blame for the shitshow, despite being the credited writer for the first handful of issues. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 02:32
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It honestly sounds like that era was just loads of petty bullshit going on behind closed doors
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Apr 30, 2024 07:49
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Blockhouse posted:It honestly sounds like that era was just loads of petty bullshit going on behind closed doors It sounds kinda like American Pro-Wrestling back in the day. A clash of egos fighting over something that they took so incredibly seriously that it's almost impossible for us to believe or understand. It's absolutely fascinating to me. I just need to know if somebody at DC was ready to kill Stan Lee or Claremont or somebody when they started taking off like the NWA was contemplating putting a hit out on Vince McMahon.
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Apr 30, 2024 10:12
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