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Thank you for posting the links, appreciated.
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Apr 28, 2024 22:22
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Though I have nothing to back it up, I really doubt trade with Israel is something that really matters to the US like others have said. I would think that funneling money into US weapons industries via aid money probably dwarfs the effects of trade with Israel. But maybe they could just do this as effectively via Taiwan or Ukraine.
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Apr 28, 2024 22:27
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I mean, the simplest reason that the US backs everything Israel does is that this is very politically popular, and remains that way because of propaganda.
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Apr 28, 2024 22:31
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kiminewt posted:Though I have nothing to back it up, I really doubt trade with Israel is something that really matters to the US like others have said. Not just Taiwan and Ukraine but other NATO partners as Russia looks to the Baltics and the rest of the west. Really 0 reason to think the US benefits from Israel.
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Apr 28, 2024 22:33
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Clarste posted:I mean, the simplest reason that the US backs everything Israel does is that this is very politically popular, and remains that way because of propaganda. Fortunately the needle seems to be moving, just not quickly enough for a lot of Palestinians. Polling, anecdotes, and freaking MSNBC coverage have me... optimistic isn't really the right word under the circumstances, but feeling like this might be the breaking point. As a recursive side effect, this makes "what Israel is doing is very bad for Israel" a more effective talking point, even if I prefer to persuade people that the food and water crises are crimes against humanity.
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Apr 28, 2024 23:03
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not a value-add posted:Bar Ran Dun where did you see Israeli air defense components? Everything I’ve ever worked with is Raytheon. Given the sensitivity of those systems as you move into higher tiers and what happened to things like the Harop it seems stupid to allow foreign production of any parts, especially electronic components. I’m trying to google it and can’t find anything. Things like arrow 3 that they just sold the Germans are cooperative ventures is my understanding. I know they need our approval to sell them. I know they do upgrades to the F-16 and F-15. I think there are specific high end avionics that make. IAI has a whole US subsidiary, if I wanted to know more details that’s where I’d start looking.
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Apr 28, 2024 23:18
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Charliegrs posted:Basically all of the media in the US is calling the campus protests anti semitic. So my question is, what evidence do they have of this because I'm not seeing it? Are they simply calling it anti semitic because the protests are pro Palestinian? Is anyone chanting pro Hamas slogans? I mean the crowds are pretty big so I wouldn't be surprised if there's at least a few actual anti semites but I'm guessing these protests by and large are anti genocide and not anti semitic but of course the media is doing a horrible job of actually representing what they are. This article lists with links some of what happened at Columbia (you can find more via google if you want): https://thehill.com/opinion/4616964-columbia-must-send-the-pro-hamas-protestors-a-clear-message/. This is the organizer: https://thehill.com/homenews/education/4625961-columbia-protest-leader-banned-from-campus/ The Columbia protests have been an outlier, but got bad enough to tar the media / political / school administrator response to the student protests more broadly.
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Apr 28, 2024 23:21
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12 years a lurker posted:This article lists with links some of what happened at Columbia (you can find more via google if you want): https://thehill.com/opinion/4616964-columbia-must-send-the-pro-hamas-protestors-a-clear-message/. None of this is antisemitic, unless you too conflate zionism with Jewishness, which itself is an antisemitic viewpoint. A few of their cited events obviously happened outside Columbia, and the only one that you could plausibly regard as antisemitic is based on reportage from a Times of Israel interview with a zionist counterprotestor. sorry, not buying it!
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Apr 28, 2024 23:31
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:None of this is antisemitic, unless you too conflate zionism with Jewishness, which itself is an antisemitic viewpoint. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't read the article rather than actually thinking shouting "F*** the Jews" and assaulting jewish students isn't antisemitic: quote:But just one day after the hearing, many students returned, and were hurling abusive phrases like, “We don’t want no Zionists here” and “Oh Hamas, my beloved, strike Tel Aviv.” The circus at Columbia attracted jesters right outside campus, including one who vowed, “October 7th will happen every day for you … 10,000 times” and another who allegedly punched Arab-Israeli activist Yoseph Hadad in the face. The situation got so out of hand that a Columbia University rabbi warned Jewish students to go home and the university moved to virtual classes on April 22. quote:On the night of the House hearing, a Jewish Columbia student wearing a kippah was beaten and left with marks around his neck. Jewish students reported “trouble sleeping” and fear of walking to class. Barnard senior Noa Fay said that it was “nearly impossible” “to get through” last semester “academically and mentally” because antisemitism “has consumed every aspect of our student life.”
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Apr 28, 2024 23:42
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quote:Israeli Officials Believe I.C.C. Is Preparing Arrest Warrants Over War https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/28/world/middleeast/icc-arrest-warrants-israel-hamas.html
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Apr 28, 2024 23:44
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12 years a lurker posted:I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't read the article rather than actually thinking shouting "F*** the Jews" and assaulting jewish students isn't antisemitic: it turns out conflating antizionism with antisemitism benefits the anti-semites too!
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Apr 28, 2024 23:46
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12 years a lurker posted:I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't read the article rather than actually thinking shouting "F*** the Jews" and assaulting jewish students isn't antisemitic: Are you sure you read the article? Did you even read the quotes you posted? quote:The circus at Columbia attracted jesters right outside campus, including one who vowed, “October 7th will happen every day for you … 10,000 times” and another who allegedly punched Arab-Israeli activist Yoseph Hadad in the face. the “F*** the Jews,” “Down with the Jews,” doesn't seem to be sourced from anywhere, or at least nowhere I could find beyond maybe the op ed writers' imaginations. The only thing I've found anywhere about anyone saying anything like that was, it turned out, from counterprotestor agitators the "beaten and left with marks around neck" is from an almost entirely contextless picture some guy posted on twitter I'll also reiterate that "zionists" and even "israel" does not equal "the Jews". Thinking otherwise is, in fact, extremely antisemitic!
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Apr 28, 2024 23:48
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12 years a lurker posted:I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't read the article rather than actually thinking shouting "F*** the Jews" and assaulting jewish students isn't antisemitic: I don't see a particularly strong reason to believe the article that cites this tweet as one of their sources int he quoted section, and the other being allegations (without evidence) of a single physical confrontation, in an interview with the Times of Israel. If the things that the author claims happened actually did are true, that's bad, but that's a big if. https://x.com/CampusJewHate/status/1780315428381708682
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Apr 28, 2024 23:49
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3rdEyeDeuteranopia posted:It's still a very high win percentage. That seems like a prime example of correlation =/= causation. Around 95 percent of incumbents won in 2022 as well, and most of AIPAC-endorsed candidates were incumbents. https://jewishinsider.com/2023/03/aipac-2024-congressional-endorsements-elections/ https://www.opensecrets.org/elections-overview/reelection-rates
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Apr 29, 2024 00:02
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:the “F*** the Jews,” “Down with the Jews,” doesn't seem to be sourced from anywhere, or at least nowhere I could find beyond maybe the op ed writers' imaginations. The only thing I've found anywhere about anyone saying anything like that was, it turned out, from counterprotestor agitators I think I've tracked down the video they reference. https://www.instagram.com/stories/highlights/18181895974294813/ (I don't know how to link to a specific highlight video, but the relevant part starts from the second one) Obviously, the source is Chabad Columbia, and we don't see full context around the clips. Plus, it would be wrong to conclude that it somehow represents the entire protest, but I would say some rhetoric there does cross the line.
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Apr 29, 2024 00:05
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Sir John Falstaff posted:That seems like a prime example of correlation =/= causation. Around 95 percent of incumbents won in 2022 as well, and most of AIPAC-endorsed candidates were incumbents. I definitely agree correlation =/= causation but also incumbents are more likely to play it safe and not all of those politicians were in safe districts or states. A lot of this happens before the primaries and even incumbents in safe districts can get into expensive fights there.
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Apr 29, 2024 00:10
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Paladinus posted:Obviously, the source is Chabad Columbia, and we don't see full context around the clips. Plus, it would be wrong to conclude that it somehow represents the entire protest, but I would say some rhetoric there does cross the line. Is it rhetoric or is it nutjob counterprotestors intentionally trying to get people to break and maybe finding success? Even if I give the videos themselves the benefit of the doubt and it all happened 100% like Chabad Columbia wants to portray it (the video with "gently caress yahoodim" was pointed at like, the sidewalk) this is not the rhetoric of the protest or representative of even the tiniest iota of the protest movement. The fact that you get someone on the streets of New York to say something antisemitic doesn't tar a protest inclusive of, and often led by, Jewish students.
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Apr 29, 2024 00:24
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A big flaming stink posted:it turns out conflating antizionism with antisemitism benefits the anti-semites too! Yes? Opposition to the actions of the Israeli government is obviously not a priori antisemitic. Conflating the two is a problem, and it does make it harder to call out the actual antisemitism, support for terrorism, etc. where those have occurred. The media response has been too broad brushed but it is not coming from nowhere. To be completely fair to the student protesters at Columbia, even if the student leadership of the protests had been better it would have been difficult there to keep the bad actors out because the school is open campus and anyone can just show up and walk in so some of the incidents were likely done by non-students.
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Apr 29, 2024 00:47
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Things like arrow 3 that they just sold the Germans are cooperative ventures is my understanding. I know they need our approval to sell them. The MDA has some joint international ventures that the U.S. has some control over, but using Arrow as an example it’s not actually fielded by the US, so I’m not sold on the idea that these programs are useful as leverage. If anything, I think it would be the other way around. The harpy/harop affair lead to Israel’s temporary suspension from some joint development, so there’s historical precedent for America very clearly holding the reins on how these run. A US stack will typically involve some mix of C-RAM, Coyote, PATRIOT, THAAD, naval systems, etc. And the defensive counter air of course. No arrow or iron dome or anything like that because we already have high altitude systems and in the case of iron dome nobody needs counter mortar area defense.
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Apr 29, 2024 00:51
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Was the Harop affair the China sale?
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Apr 29, 2024 01:16
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It was. The Harops predecessor, the Harpy, was sold to China and has been attracting attention from security analysts ever since because it’s basically the lawnmower drones being currently used in the Middle East but with a radar seeker. When Israel refused to pull them all back ten years later America got upset and kicked them out of the F-35 program.
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Apr 29, 2024 01:29
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For the record, the Kill The Jews chant was from a Pro-Israel counterprotestor, as shown here: https://twitter.com/Tori_Bedford/status/1784222169746063773 On top of the quoted remark, Pro-Israel counterprotestors have been generally attempting to pick a fight with the protestors precisely to get a "Protestors Harm Jewish American" narrative going: https://x.com/prem_thakker/status/1784694162660422007 https://twitter.com/letsgomathias/status/1783656513875190028 And a number of folks have gone to the protests in an attempt to prove a point (either that they're safe, or they're a den of jewkillers): https://twitter.com/joshrogin/status/1784322734052286785 https://twitter.com/mtracey/status/1784276033207763173 https://twitter.com/dunksdeux/status/1782782160191225912/photo/1 (original tweet for the last one was deleted when it backfired hilariously & they posted it anyways, it involved her walking around shouting "I AM NOT AFRAID" and "LOOK AT MY FACE")
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Apr 29, 2024 02:44
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fool of sound posted:I'm absolutely certain that the US can find an alternate source of imports for the extremely short time period before Israel capitulates because US sanctions would devastate their economy instantly. for extremely specific components that is not remotely how it works, no
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Apr 29, 2024 03:33
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also if u want a one sentence summary of the last 120 years of american foreign policy it is 'literal deals with the devil for supply chain stability'
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Apr 29, 2024 03:43
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12 years a lurker posted:Yes? Opposition to the actions of the Israeli government is obviously not a priori antisemitic. Conflating the two is a problem, and it does make it harder to call out the actual antisemitism, support for terrorism, etc. where those have occurred. The media response has been too broad brushed but it is not coming from nowhere. To be completely fair to the student protesters at Columbia, even if the student leadership of the protests had been better it would have been difficult there to keep the bad actors out because the school is open campus and anyone can just show up and walk in so some of the incidents were likely done by non-students. Supporting Hamas is the duty of any moral person (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 29, 2024 04:06
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Butter Activities posted:Supporting Hamas is the duty of any moral person (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 29, 2024 04:13
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piL posted:The pier allows a route that does not cross through Israeli soverign territory. Right now the global community can only convince and coerce to change the inspection policy and let more food in. They can't force the issue except by invading Israel if the only routes are in Israel. UNs not going to agree to that. The Israeli's still get to inspect and deny, at their whim, goods heading to the pier anyways. It doesn't change anything. It's using the same policy that the border crossings in Israel use.
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Apr 29, 2024 05:52
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It’s happening in Cyprus, that’s very different than it happening right at a border crossing.
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Apr 29, 2024 06:03
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No it isn't. Not if the same people get to do the checks. The same policies can be assumed to be in place. And therefore the same bullshit delay/denial tactics can be assumed.
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Apr 29, 2024 06:14
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Think about trucks in a line at a border crossing. Each one getting opened only by Israelis. The line has to wait on each inspection one after the other. If they get rejected it’s a big deal, all the way back to where they came. Now think about a Ro-Ro terminal in Cyprus. Trailers are dropped off, parked in a bigass parking lot. Ship sails in a few days. Cyprus is inspecting Israel is observing. There are multiple nations present. There isn’t a delay to loading. This happens well before the cargo operations start. CFS is right there. Trailers can be stripped reloaded, cargo handling is all easy. The inspection being used to delay is neutered.
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Apr 29, 2024 06:18
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:No it isn't. Not if the same people get to do the checks. The same policies can be assumed to be in place. And therefore the same bullshit delay/denial tactics can be assumed. I did high consequence hazardous material cargo inspections for about 15 years. I often participated in multi agency cargo inspections MASFO events with CBP and USCG, etc. It’s quite different. Not being right at the border crossing and happening in Cyprus in a RORO terminal is a very very different thing.
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Apr 29, 2024 06:32
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If Israel has the final say over the inspections then it does not matter what the circumstance are or who else is there. It isn't magic, there are no other actual circumstances impeding delivery from any other point into Gaza. It is all entirely down to the will of the Israeli government. It is all bullshit. Starvation is a weapon of the ongoing genocide, perhaps the primary weapon in the longer term plan, given that it will kill exponentially more people than any munitions once it is in full effect. It does not matter from whence the aid comes, or where it is inspected. If Israel have control over it then it will not move in meaningful volume or with worthwhile alacrity, and if you cannot understand why that is then I don't know what to say to you.
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Apr 29, 2024 06:36
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I did high consequence hazardous material cargo inspections for about 15 years. I often participated in multi agency cargo inspections MASFO events with CBP and USCG, etc. For several pages you seem hung up on the technicalities of this, by continuing again and again to miss the fact that Israel is doing a genocide and that part of that genocide is to deny Palestinians of basic logistics. The technicalities don't matter. Israel doesn't want these supplies getting in, so they're not getting in. Changing the method of entry from truck to ship does not matter.
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Apr 29, 2024 06:46
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The starvation is not a failure of the system, it is an intentional act by the people in control of the region. As long as they want this to happen, they will find a way to make it happen. Because they don't care about the rules we might impose on them. Preventing them from delaying inspections in one particular way means literally nothing, because they have infinite other ways to achieve the same goal as long as they are charge of the region.
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Apr 29, 2024 06:55
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rkd_ posted:https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/28/world/middleeast/icc-arrest-warrants-israel-hamas.html Honestly think it would be very interesting to see the court case against Hamas officials in the Hague. What they can pin on them, what they'll confess to and how much of it is going to be various shades of "shot rockets at Israel". Edit: As far as optics go, a public trial in this atmosphere could potentially rehabilitate Hamas in the public eye because it's an opportunity to communicate their goals and methods in a setting that can't be ignored. Demiurge4 fucked around with this message at 07:08 on Apr 29, 2024 |
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Apr 29, 2024 07:04
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:If Israel has the final say over the inspections then it does not matter what the circumstance are or who else is there. It isn't magic, there are no other actual circumstances impeding delivery from any other point into Gaza. It is all entirely down to the will of the Israeli government. It is all bullshit. No it isn’t magic. They could take twice or even quadruple the time inspecting every load in a Cyprus terminal, and it would not be a meaningful delay the logistics in the manner that it is at a border crossing. Because the logistics are fundamentally different. Cargo is going to sit waiting in the terminal before loading on a ship in the terminal. That’s when inspections will happen. If they want to waste time they’re wasting their time not impeding the cargo movement. At a border the inspection actively impedes the crossing. It happens while the goods are in transit, not at a terminal interchange while the goods aren’t in movement. And Cyprus is inspecting, Israel is watching. Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Starvation is a weapon of the ongoing genocide, perhaps the primary weapon in the longer term plan, given that it will kill exponentially more people than any munitions once it is in full effect. Agreed. Lovely Joe Stalin posted:It does not matter from whence the aid comes, or where it is inspected. If Israel have control over it then it will not move in meaningful volume or with worthwhile alacrity, and if you cannot understand why that is then I don't know what to say to you. It’s good that folks who do care about and realize the details matter a great deal, that lives are at stake on the details, are the ones acting.
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Apr 29, 2024 07:12
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Is there anything preventing Israel from inspecting the aid again once it reaches the pier or put onto trucks?
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Apr 29, 2024 07:20
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theCalamity posted:Is there anything preventing Israel from inspecting the aid again once it reaches the pier or put onto trucks? They won’t be able to on the pier. Like physically won’t be able to. Ashore they could but they’d have to break the kayfabe. Counties get to inspect goods crossing their borders. CBP can just go open /random cans at the container terminal or direct them to a bonded CFS. That all would be done though. Their entry requirements would have been met in Cyprus. It’s much more likely to me that they target trucks from UN WFP “accidentally” like they did with WCK. But that’s much riskier for them now then it was.
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Apr 29, 2024 07:40
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Bar Ran Dun posted:And Cyprus is inspecting, Israel is watching. The New York Times article linked above says that they are still using Israel's policy and it's Israel's policy that is denying the aid. Whether the boat is more efficient has no bearing on whether Israeli policy will allow the aid or not. It can be incredibly efficient, but if the Israeli policy is to deny (and, again, the article says Israel's policy is the thing that determines whether aid is allowed in) then no amount of efficiency is going to make a difference.
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Apr 29, 2024 08:13
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Mormon Star Wars posted:The Israeli's still get to inspect and deny, at their whim, goods heading to the pier anyways. It doesn't change anything. It's using the same policy that the border crossings in Israel use. I had meant for this line to address that. piL posted:. Right now other entities can't tell Israel "actually, I disagree, you may not inspect it." It's goods traveling on soverign Israeli territory--to force exemption here contrary to the government's wishes is to invite a weakening of the concept of sovereignty between all states. Once the process is established, if other states determine that actually they don't like how the Israelis are running the shlw, they are more readily able to change the agreement--as long as the Cypriots agree. And if Cyprus doesn't agree, the goods can flow from elsewhere from international waters, through international waters, to a pier in Gaza--provided the entities running the pier (likely UN or US troops) permit it to land. While somewhat of a diplomatic foible if the opposite was formally agreed to, it's no longer a threat to statehood. Will the international community reach that conclusion? Will other powers (namely the US or the UN) use the ability to let goods in without Israeli consent as a bargaining chip to influence other Israeli behaviors? Was developing an avenue to circumvent Israel sovreign claims part of the plan? I don't know. But they are more able to with the pier than without.
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Apr 29, 2024 08:45
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