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any hobsbawm worth reading? i've have maybe 5 of them on my computer for 10+ years but never got around.
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May 3, 2024 17:09
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Some Guy TT posted:id like to know more about this field marshal mannerheim fellow ive been led to believe he was beloved by the finnish population at least in 1940 is this true and is it still true do the finns still love field marshal mannerheim in short he was a reactionary monarchist who actually disliked the nazis mainly because their ideology was too newfangled for his tastes. didn't stop him from working with them tho as for his popularity, up until ww2 opinion in finland was pretty sharply divided due to him leading the white forces during the finnish civil war, so at the time the bourg liked him but the socialists considered him a butcher. during the war the general rally around the flag effect made him pretty universally popular, but nowadays most people have this fuzzy positive impression but nobody except the fash actually care that much
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May 3, 2024 17:44
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mawarannahr posted:any hobsbawm worth reading? i've have maybe 5 of them on my computer for 10+ years but never got around. Age of Revolution, Age of Capital, and Age of Empire are really good (read in that order obv) but Hobsbawm does expect you to have a decent amount of background knowledge of the period. Haven't read his fourth book in that series that covers the 20th century, but I assume it's worth a read as well. The only take of his I can remember really disagreeing with was on the US Civil War, but that's more to do with how assumptions by historians about the Slave Power have changed within the last couple decades.
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May 3, 2024 18:53
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Cerebral Bore posted:in short he was a reactionary monarchist who actually disliked the nazis mainly because their ideology was too newfangled for his tastes. didn't stop him from working with them tho what was mannerheims position on killing all the jews and taking over the world
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May 3, 2024 20:21
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I'll bet it was 'I don't disagree but they're doing it in such a tacky way'
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May 3, 2024 20:30
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I don't know about Mannerheim specifically but Finland did hand Jewish POWs and refugees over to the Germans.
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May 3, 2024 21:04
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Some 300,000 US workers in 1886 out on strike To toil a little less and make a wrong world right They demanded an eight-hour day Some 50,000 in the streets of Chicago that first of May More showed out there than in any other industrial city Workers at the McCormick Harvester plant got fired And although organizers were surely tired They gathered folks on May 3rd for a demonstration Police extended themselves an invitation August Spies spoke but the factory bell rang several blocks away Workers headed to the plant that day in May Spies watched as officers shot at and battered guys who inveighed He hurried back to the Arbeiter-Zeitung and wrote with impatience: “You have for years endured the most abject humiliations; you have for years suffered immeasurable iniquities; you have worked yourselves to death; you have endured the pangs of want and hunger; your children you have sacrificed to the factory lords—in short you have been miserable and obedient slaves all these years. Why? To satisfy the insatiable greed and fill the coffers of your lazy thieving masters! When you ask him now to lessen your burden, he sends his bloodhounds out to shoot you, to kill you!” People gathered at Chicago’s Haymarket Square the day after About 1,200 showed for the affair, which some later called a riot or disaster Again, Spies spoke, with the power of methane, propane and other explosive gasses: “Now is the chance to strike for the existence of the oppressed classes. The oppressors want us to be content. They will kill us. The thought of liberty which inspired your sires ought to animate you today. The day is not far distant when we will resort to hanging these men.” And he added, the following, smashing the hammer upon the proverbial nail: “Don’t make any threats, they are of no avail. Whenever you get ready to do something do it and don’t make any threats beforehand. There are in the city today between forty and fifty thousand men locked out because they refuse to obey the supreme will … of a small number of men.” Fellow anarchist organizer Albert Parsons also delivered a prescient warning: “I am not here for the purpose of inciting anybody, but to speak out, to tell the facts as they exist, even though it shall cost me my life before morning." Biting wind blew Rain poured too Samuel Fielden told then told the crowd what he believed to be true: “The law is your enemy. We are rebels against it. The law is only framed for those that are your enslavers.” And then those enforcing the law did workers no favors Police approached and told people to peaceably disperse A dynamite bomb hurled through the air after officers got terse It detonated near the rank of law enforcement situated first One officer died and others were taken aback They regrouped and attacked A barrage of bullets killed four The law arrested eight men from the ranks of the rebellious working poor Lack of evidence aside, both Spies and Parsons faced charges The Chicago Daily Mail had gone them the hardest On May 1, the paper readied an op-ed on the double that read: “There are two dangerous ruffians at large in this city; two sneaking cowards who are trying to create trouble. “One of them is named Parsons; the other is named Spies. Should trouble come they would be the first to skulk away from the scene of danger,” and “the first to shirk responsibility.” Continuing, the Mail came with more editorial hostility: “Hold them personally responsible for any trouble that occurs, they added, Make an example of them if trouble does occur.” The New York Times was similarly direct, no need to infer: “No disturbance to the peace that has occurred in the United States since the war of the rebellion has excited public sentiment through the Union as it is excited by the Anarchist’s murder of police men in Chicago on Tuesday night.” The newspaper of record had some nerve The piece claimed the “cowardly savages who plotted and carried out this murder shall suffer the death they deserve.” A business publication told readers: “This week’s happenings at Chicago go to show that the threats of the anarchists against the existing order of society are not merely idle vaporings,” adding: “There is no room for anarchy in the political system of the United States.” The St. Louis Globe Democrat foretold the Haymarket martyrs’ fates: “There are no good anarchists except dead anarchists,” was the Globe Democrat’s directive The Columbus Ohio Journal echoed the call another few decibels: “There are too many unhung anarchists and rebels.” And the Cleveland reader suggested anarchist-socialists embodied evil: “The anarchist wolf, unwisely permitted to take up its abode and propagate its bloodthirsty species in this country – has fastened its hideous, poisonous fangs in the body corporate of the American people.” The insults kept coming, spewing from all the pages Whipping the public into a panic is commercial media’s M.O.; it continues unabated The Washington Post labeled anarchists a “horde of foreigners, representing the lower stratum found in humanity’s formation.” WaPo had internalized elite interests and waxed xenophobic without hesitation Four Haymarket organizers were convicted on charges of conspiracy and later hanged Prior to his execution, Spies harangued: “If you think that by hanging us you can stamp out the labor movement … the movement from which the downtrodden millions who toil in want and misery expect salvation – if this is your opinion, then hang us! Here you will tread upon a spark, but there and there, behind you and in front of you, and everywhere, flames blaze up. It is a subterranean fire. You cannot put it out.” Against the ownership class, the state and exploitative institutions he never kowtowed On the gallows with the three other martyrs on November 11, 1887 In his final statement, Spies spoke to the irrepressibel struggle for earthly heaven: “There will come a time, when our silence will be more powerful than the voices you strangle today!” And, I dare say, his spirit lives on; it never went away We can recall, recover and stoke that subterranean fire this May! Information, ideas and inspiration for this poem came from the following sources, (most likely) among others that don’t immediately come to mind: Henry David, “The History of the Haymarket Affair: A Study in the American and Social-Revolutionary Movements” (1936); Sharon Smith, “Subterranean Fire: A History of Working-Class Radicalism in the United States” (2006); James Green, “Death in the Haymarket” (2006); Peter Linebaugh, “The Incomplete, True, Authentic, and Wonderful History of May Day” (2016)
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May 3, 2024 23:20
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Some Guy TT posted:what was mannerheims position on killing all the jews and taking over the world he was more about killing all the socialists and taking over a good chunk of russia. didn't stop him from working with the people who wanted to kill all the jews and take over the world tho
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May 4, 2024 05:19
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mannerheim did mellow out a bit later in life, but i feel like that was mostly because he recognized that his previous goals weren't realistic when you're a sparsely populated country with a tiny fraction of the ussr's industrial capacity
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May 4, 2024 05:21
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Cerebral Bore posted:mannerheim did mellow out a bit later in life, but i feel like that was mostly because he recognized that his previous goals weren't realistic when you're a sparsely populated country with a tiny fraction of the ussr's industrial capacity rats don’t get credit for jumping of a sinking ship
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May 4, 2024 06:07
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Some Guy TT posted:
Finland doesn't have a "Greatest Finn" vote regularly that Britain has, but apparently there was one 20 years ago and Mannerheim won it.
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May 4, 2024 06:25
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Grimnarsson posted:Finland doesn't have a "Greatest Finn" vote regularly that Britain has, but apparently there was one 20 years ago and Mannerheim won it. No, it was war time president Risto Ryti.
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May 4, 2024 08:46
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suuret_suomalaiset The winner During the final stage of voting, people had the chance to vote for the following three leading candidates: Risto Ryti, C.G.E. Mannerheim and Urho Kekkonen. The winner was baron Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim, a war hero, Marshal of Finland, and president. Top Ten C.G.E. Mannerheim (1867–1951) (President of Finland, 1944–1946, and Marshal of Finland) Risto Ryti (1889–1956) (President of Finland, 1940–1944) Urho Kekkonen (1900–1986) (President of Finland, 1956–1982) Adolf Ehrnrooth (1905–2004) (infantry general, a figurehead for the Finnish veteran community) Tarja Halonen (1943–) (first female President of Finland, 2000–2012) Arvo Ylppö (1887–1992) (famed pediatrician) Mikael Agricola (1510–1557) (Protestant reformer and creator of literary Finnish language) Jean Sibelius (1865–1957) (world-famous composer of romantic music) Aleksis Kivi (1834–1872) (national author) Elias Lönnrot (1802–1884) (anthropologist)
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May 4, 2024 09:23
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my greatest finn vote is for all the finnish goons who have ever wrought their fey boreal havoc on these fine forums
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May 4, 2024 09:54
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wow, maybe chill it with the insults a bit?
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May 4, 2024 10:07
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Fish of hemp posted:Risto Ryti. Loved him in Star Wars: Shadows of the Empire
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May 4, 2024 11:05
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Grimnarsson posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suuret_suomalaiset no tove jannson??? smdh at finlands inability to appreciate their most truly important national hero
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May 4, 2024 12:53
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Some Guy TT posted:no tove jannson??? smdh at finlands inability to appreciate their most truly important national hero
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May 4, 2024 13:42
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the mythology of ww2 in europe is deeply pernicious in ways which i have only relatively recently started to fully comprehend
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May 4, 2024 14:02
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V. Illych L. posted:the mythology of ww2 in europe is deeply pernicious in ways which i have only relatively recently started to fully comprehend All the white nations wanted to murder jewish people and communists but were so hosed up and stupid they managed to mess everything up in just the right way to ensure they had to infight then they made a whole load of organisations to ensure they only fought the real enemies
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May 4, 2024 14:49
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pascha tonight... shoutout to the yiayas and babushki who stand and sing through the whole thing while everyone else is dying to sit down and look at phone
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May 4, 2024 19:03
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i say swears online posted:Arkansas does in fact claim to be the birthplace of queso Ted Cruz tried to make it an official senate queso challenge and got his rear end beat
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May 4, 2024 19:08
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Orange Devil posted:Che was a class traitor (laudatory) The biggest friction with Che and Fidel is the machismo.
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May 5, 2024 01:04
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and now more communist comics from early 1940 about finlands greatest national hero general mannerheim   
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May 5, 2024 21:53
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i thought marmaduke was about a large dog 
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May 5, 2024 21:58
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the way this comic nonchalantly discusses mannerheim as if hes this common household name fascinates me did everybody in the united states know who this guy was in 1940 or just the communists also were americans generally promannerheim or antimannerheim what did they think the winter war was about
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May 6, 2024 01:28
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FDR did a couple of speeches about poor little Finland during the Winter War. There wasnt much else going on in Europe so it got a lot of media attention. The yanks even made a film about it in 1940!
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May 6, 2024 01:59
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Raskolnikov38 posted:i thought marmaduke was about a large dog the original marmaduke was murdered by the cia for his political views and replaced with a trained canine Some Guy TT posted:and now more communist comics from early 1940 about finlands greatest national hero general mannerheim i get the sentiment, but i gotta say that's a really bad caricature of mannerheim
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May 6, 2024 04:57
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Cerebral Bore posted:i get the sentiment, but i gotta say that's a really bad caricature of mannerheim
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May 6, 2024 05:22
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Not much, what's moomin wit u?
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May 6, 2024 05:32
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No their army didn't hang onto the swastika longer than was strictly needed.. The Finnish Defence Forces used the swastika during the Continuation War (1941 to 1944) as a vehicle identification symbol because by then we were in a loose alliance with the Germans, and they had some German troops fighting over here in addition to the material support we got from them, so I guess it made sense during the war, lovely as it is. But that poo poo was dumped immediately after the Continuation War, and we had to then fight a second, more different war to kick the nazis out of Lapland. At the time this comic went into print, we were either fighting the Winter War or had just come out of it (November 1939 - March 1940) against the Soviets, who -- and I stress this -- were still literally allied with the nazis under the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and happily dividing up Europe between the two of them. You're probably thinking of the the Finnish Air Force who definitely did do that, for stupid historical reasons. It didn't have anything to do with the nazis (although hang on to that thought for a bit) and instead was painted on the first Finnish Air Force plane ever, received as a gift in 1918 from the Swedish count Von Rosen who used the swastika as his own personal good luck symbol or some poo poo. And then it became the symbol for the air forces and that was that. That's all very reasonable but after Hitler did his poo poo, they really should have changed it instead of explaining this to everyone for ~50 years until they finally changed it. Except still not completely, because the FAF flying academy STILL uses the god drat thing today. But about that "didn't have anything to do with the nazis" thing? Let's do a quick search on this von Rosen guy. quote:Count Carl Gustaf Bloomfield Eric von Rosen (2 June 1879 in Stockholm – 25 April 1948 Skeppsholmen, Stockholm) was a Swedish honorary doctor, patron, explorer, ethnographer, prominent figure in the Swedish upper class and a leading figure in Sweden's own national socialist movement in the 1930s. Oh... quote:Von Rosen became brother-in-law to Hermann Göring when his wife's sister, Carin von Kantzow, married Göring Oooohhh... So yeah, we super double secret triple should've replaced the loving swastika on our roundels decades before we finally did, because at best it was a really bad look, and at worst the guy was actually a secret Swedish nazi and duped us into painting a nazi insignia on our planes for ~80 years.
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May 6, 2024 14:02
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I really want to ask that dude why there’s footage of the Finnish Churchill talking and shaking hands with hitler if he’s such a hero for defeating the Soviets but I don’t think the BSS mods would look kindly on that derail
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May 6, 2024 14:03
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look if we had to ostracize everyone who shaked hands with hitler how would we ever rebuild a free democratic europe
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May 6, 2024 14:09
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there’s also the whole thing about the Soviets basically offering more land than they would have taken from the Finns that the Finns bluntly refused to acknowledge thinking Nazi germany would back them up in the negotiations prior to the winter war
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May 6, 2024 14:10
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Some Guy TT posted:a secret Swedish nazi idk dude it doesn't sound that secret to me
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May 6, 2024 14:13
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vyelkin posted:idk dude it doesn't sound that secret to me only a master of subtlety could design something like this 
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May 6, 2024 14:19
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vyelkin posted:idk dude it doesn't sound that secret to me
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May 6, 2024 15:36
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Raskolnikov38 posted:there’s also the whole thing about the Soviets basically offering more land than they would have taken from the Finns that the Finns bluntly refused to acknowledge thinking Nazi germany would back them up in the negotiations prior to the winter war It was some swamp land in exchange for the best agricultural land Finland had. It wasn't exactly fair deal.
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May 6, 2024 15:47
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much like current day Ukraine, was it a fairer deal than what they eventually got/(will get)
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May 6, 2024 17:32
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Some Guy TT posted:only a master of subtlety could design something like this Wait a minute... *Moves propeller aside* Good lord, there's a Swastika under here!
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May 8, 2024 03:51
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