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Charliegrs posted:Yes? Why is that so hard to believe. You think Hamas cares about the Palestinian people? Yes. They’re shooting the people trying to exterminate Palestinians. This is a really gross way to try and both sides a genocide.
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May 3, 2024 21:40
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Bar Ran Dun posted:The Saudi’s / Egypt normalizing with Israel would have been an existential problem for Hamas as a group and that’s probably why it all happened. Would the normalization of relations between Saudi Arabia and Egypt stop the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and ended the apartheid?
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May 3, 2024 21:42
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Bar Ran Dun posted:It was known well before the attacks in October 23 that Isreal always overreacts to an extreme degree. They knew before doing the attacks on the scale they did in Oct that the overreaction from Isreal would be extremely bad for everybody in Gaza. They might not have realized it would be genocide bad. So is your position that Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinian people?
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May 3, 2024 21:42
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Civilized Fishbot posted:The belief that politicians, or a political party, care about anything other than their political and personal enrichment is usually deluded and dangerous. I'm sorry, but this is a recapitulation of the hasbara canard of "Save Gaza... from Hamas!!" that paints Hamas as a club of billionaire playboys going on fun private vacations on the UNRWA dime while Gaza starves because they're just inhumanly nasty and ontologically evil. It's one step apart from the thought-terminating blanket designation of "terrorist" to one that appears a little more nuanced but trades the slavering islamophobia for a similarly hairbrained cynicism. Will Hamas attack the pier? Who knows? Does it represent an active threat to their operations in the area because it's literally a beachhead by an armed pro-Israeli force? Can the US or israel or both effectively leverage it against Hamas? Is it worth it to get the food and supplies? Are they established enough that they can ignore or write that area off or would it be too much of an incursion to allow, that it might severely undermine them in part or all of Gaza and mean, therefore, that there will soon be literally no resistance to the IOF stomping around Gaza as they please? I don't know, I'm not fighting for my life and the lives of everyone I care about in Gaza. Maybe, when whatever happens, I will disagree on whatever tactical or pragmatic grounds, but I don't have the ideologically necessary blinders to try to pretend that the actions of Hamas since October 7th and whatever they will do if and when this pier is constructed is because they don't care about the Palestinian people. Jesus. Bar Ran Dun posted:It was known well before the attacks in October 23 that Isreal always overreacts to an extreme degree. They knew before doing the attacks on the scale they did in Oct that the overreaction from Isreal would be extremely bad for everybody in Gaza. They might not have realized it would be genocide bad. If Hamas cared about Palestine they would have let everyone get starved and murdered a little bit more slowly? Is that the argument? Tell me, what do you think SA and Egypt normalizing relations with israel would do to the plight of the Palestinians? Or were those nasty Hamas guys just motivated by all of the billions of UN dollars they got for producing Pallywood videos?
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May 3, 2024 21:46
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I explicitly stated in my post that Biden's course "will certainly cause some people to not vote for Biden on principal" (whether that results in them voting 3rd party or not voting at all). I am aware that the current situation will cause harm for Biden, it just seems clear that the alternative is worse because in that scenario the (roughly equal number of) pro-Israel Democrats aren't just having to make a call on whether they should abstain on principal, but rather whether they should vote for a candidate who much better represents their views. Not only do they have a far stronger reason to defect, but each defection is twice as painful because they will be voting for the other guy rather than not voting. Are you saying pro Israeli Democrats will vote for Trump? What's your proof?
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May 3, 2024 21:46
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Shageletic posted:Are you saying pro Israeli Democrats will vote for Trump? What's your proof? I think they are saying that the Democratic party would lose more votes to Trump by not supporting the genocide than those by having some people vote third party or not turn up by supporting it.
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May 3, 2024 21:58
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Honestly, considering everything else Israel has done, I'm more concerned about one of their soldiers taking pot shots at the pier and then just blaming Hamas for it, hoping that the US will get dragged into the conflict.
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May 3, 2024 21:59
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Randalor posted:Honestly, considering everything else Israel has done, I'm more concerned about one of their soldiers taking pot shots at the pier and then just blaming Hamas for it, hoping that the US will get dragged into the conflict. that was my thought as well given that time they blew up Al-Shifa hospital and were like "uhhhh Hamas did that"
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May 3, 2024 22:05
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:it is completely and utterly insane to think that the people fighting for the freedom of Palestine don't actually care about Palestine. Are they really just mindless savages to you? Oct 7th and decades of suicide bombings showed that yes they are savages. Like I'm no fan of Israel but come on are people really trying to say Hamas are the good guys here? I want freedom for the Palestinians like every other sane person but I draw the line at defending Hamas. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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May 3, 2024 22:06
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Charliegrs posted:Oct 7th and decades of suicide bombings showed that yes they are savages. Like I'm no fan of Israel but come on are people really trying to say Hamas are the good guys here? I want freedom for the Palestinians like every other sane person but I draw the line at defending Hamas. do you consider the IDF "savages"? surely murdering tens of thousands of civilians in indiscriminate bombings is as bad as 10/7 right?
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May 3, 2024 22:09
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Charliegrs posted:Oct 7th and decades of suicide bombings showed that yes they are savages. Like I'm no fan of Israel but come on are people really trying to say Hamas are the good guys here? I want freedom for the Palestinians like every other sane person but I draw the line at defending Hamas. So why are you merely not a fan of Israel while repulsed by Hamas when Israel's crimes are, in every comparison, worse?
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May 3, 2024 22:10
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Lol surely openly and directly calling Palestinians ‘savages,’ literally agreeing that you think it’s the appropriate word, changes the hitler status of that post to ‘not calm’ Surely 
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May 3, 2024 22:10
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theCalamity posted:Would the normalization of relations between Saudi Arabia and Egypt stop the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and ended the apartheid? No idea how it wood have turned out. We didn’t get to find out as Hamas acted in reaction to it. Son of Thunderbeast posted:So is your position that Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinian people? I’m not drawing a conclusion. I’m asserting that: 1) Israel’s overreaction was extremely predictable. 2) Hamas would have been very very aware of 1). 3) They chose to attack in Oct 2023.
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May 3, 2024 22:13
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Charliegrs posted:Oct 7th and decades of suicide bombings showed that yes they are savages. Like I'm no fan of Israel but come on are people really trying to say Hamas are the good guys here? I want freedom for the Palestinians like every other sane person but I draw the line at defending Hamas. Even if you’re glued to the position that Hamas are “savages” (yikes), they’re clearly pragmatic to some degree. Helping Israel further starve the Palestinian people to death doesn’t seem like a pragmatic move to me, given that they probably want to still have at least some Gazans healthy enough to recruit and fight with them. It also seems like bombing the pier wouldn’t endear Hamas to most Gazans.
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May 3, 2024 22:13
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punishedkissinger posted:do you consider the IDF "savages"? surely murdering tens of thousands of civilians in indiscriminate bombings is as bad as 10/7 right? not to mention the kneecapping contest at the march of return, not to mention....all sorts of other things the IDF did even going back to before hamas existed
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May 3, 2024 22:14
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Charliegrs posted:Oct 7th and decades of suicide bombings showed that yes they are savages. Like I'm no fan of Israel but come on are people really trying to say Hamas are the good guys here? I want freedom for the Palestinians like every other sane person but I draw the line at defending Hamas. Anyone of any ethical standing whatsoever has long understood that Hamas are freedom fighters, not terrorists or savages or whatever breathtakingly racist and Islamophobic denigration you want to throw at them. It'd be nice if somehow, magically, their psychotic oppressors would just dissolve into dust one day without any violence, but they're fighting for their lives and the lives of their people. Until Palestine is free, I and anyone with a single ounce of moral clarity will proudly and openly support Hamas and condemn the demoniac zionist entity and the subjugation and depraved wanton violence it imposes.
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May 3, 2024 22:14
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Bar Ran Dun posted:No idea how it wood have turned out. We didn’t get to find out as Hamas acted in reaction to it. Given the nature of Israel and the performative stance of the United States, we can assume that if relations were normalized, the apartheid and ethnic cleansing would continue and possibly make it harder to combat. Are the oppressed not allowed to defend themselves from their oppressors?
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May 3, 2024 22:17
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Charliegrs posted:Oct 7th and decades of suicide bombings showed that yes they are savages. Like I'm no fan of Israel but come on are people really trying to say Hamas are the good guys here? I want freedom for the Palestinians like every other sane person but I draw the line at defending Hamas. idk about this one chief like maybe perhaps reducing an entire group to "savages" is not the best thing you can do
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May 3, 2024 22:36
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Savages! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pImdvmIw0Ec
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May 3, 2024 22:37
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Bar Ran Dun posted:No idea how it wood have turned out. We didn’t get to find out as Hamas acted in reaction to it. Should you not resist occupation if you think the reprisal will kill the people you're resisting for? What's your point
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May 3, 2024 22:37
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punishedkissinger posted:do you consider the IDF "savages"? surely murdering tens of thousands of civilians in indiscriminate bombings is as bad as 10/7 right?
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May 3, 2024 22:59
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It's worth noting, when discussing fault, that over 250 Palestinians were killed in 2023 prior to October. Israel had completely slacked the reins on the settlers. It's more surprising to me that Hamas didn't act until Al-Aqsa was raided again.
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May 3, 2024 23:02
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Reverence posted:What's your point There’s a whole lot of simplistic dualistic thinking happening.
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May 3, 2024 23:03
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Bar Ran Dun posted:There’s a whole lot of simplistic dualistic thinking happening. What’s the simplistic dualistic thinking you’re concerned about? You joined this conversation by answering whether or not Hamas is fighting for Palestinians by saying that they should’ve known that Israel would overreact, the implication being that Hamas ignited this genocide which is basically the propaganda line of “Fee Gaza from Hamas”. You bring up the relations normalization but forget that Israel has been ethnically cleansing Palestinians for decades
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May 3, 2024 23:07
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I'm sorry, but this is a recapitulation of the hasbara canard of "Save Gaza... from Hamas!!" that paints Hamas as a club of billionaire playboys going on fun private vacations on the UNRWA dime while Gaza starves because they're just inhumanly nasty and ontologically evil. It's one step apart from the thought-terminating blanket designation of "terrorist" to one that appears a little more nuanced but trades the slavering islamophobia for a similarly hairbrained cynicism. The people in Gaza don't need to be saved from Hamas, they need to be saved from the State of Israel which is conducting a seige with wild aggression toward civilian life and infrastructure to the point of genocide. Hamas, as the ruling political party in Gaza, is leading the resistance to that seige. Hamas is not inhumanly nasty or ontologically evil. They're a political party that, like the rest of them, responds to political incentives and threats as much as the competencies of its functionaries allow. If you call that cynical, fair enough, but I'd honestly say believing anything else makes you a sucker. Political parties should be assumed to be self-interested until proven otherwise, and I haven't seen the proof otherwise in the case of Hamas or any other political party or firm. Worth noting that saying a political party is self-interested is not the same as saying that everyone involved in it is self-interested. The party's leadership are not laughing to themselves about the hilarious scam they pulled on the Palestinian people or lower-ranking members of the party, how they tricked them into surrendering their lives so leadership can live in luxury. Maybe some small portion of them are like that, and another portion are truly selfish saints who have no capacity for self-interest at all, but I think Hamas's decisions, like that of any political party, are pretty explainable by the idea that the people making those decisions want the party to lead a robust, independent state. quote:Are they established enough that they can ignore or write that area off or would it be too much of an incursion to allow, that it might severely undermine them in part or all of Gaza and mean, therefore, that there will soon be literally no resistance to the IOF stomping around Gaza as they please? I don't know, I'm not fighting for my life and the lives of everyone I care about in Gaza. Yeah, I don't think Hamas is going to "ignore or write ... off" any part of Gaza, at least not publicly, not if they have any choice in the matter, because their entire appeal to the Palestinian people, particularly the men and women they're getting to fight and die for them, is that they are defending Gaza from this horrible seige. I think the pier, as proposed by the US, is functionally equivalent to "the IOF stomping around Gaza as they please." It's the US army and not the Israelis themselves, but they're famously integrated allies. It's only a part of Gaza and not the whole thing, but it's Gaza. It's an enemy presence in Gaza when the whole raison d'etre of Hamas is to combat the enemy's control over Gaza, particularly right now as the enemy is making Gaza into hell on earth. I think for Hamas to allow this pier to exist would be literal collaboration with an enemy state. Even if you totally reject my understanding of Hamas, and you say the party has no self-interest, it will always decide to pursue the welfare of Palestine even if Hamas itself is completely destroyed in doing so - then their militant style of resistance indicates that they would not evaluate collaboration with the US military as congruent with that way of making decisions. quote:Or were those nasty Hamas guys just motivated by all of the billions of UN dollars they got for producing Pallywood videos? The suffering of the Palestinian people at the hands of the Israeli state is extremely real and gravely serious. I didn't say otherwise and the implication that I think otherwise is really offensive honestly. Except for the most literal interpretations, everything I've said about the Palestinian people, I would say about the victims of the Holocaust, and everything I've said about Hamas, I would also say about the political parties that led the Nazi invasions of their countries. The unlikeliness of this pier to succeed in saving Gaza, because of its logistical limitations, because Hamas has not indicated they will tolerate it and I don't know why they would, because it cannot stop the IDF from shooting people and bombing them - just one more reason that this genocide has to end in the way I think we all know it will end, the United States finally pulls Israel's chain tight enough to drag it to the negotiating table. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 23:30 on May 3, 2024 |
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May 3, 2024 23:12
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theCalamity posted:You bring up the relations normalization but forget that Israel has been ethnically cleansing Palestinians for decades No, that’s incorrect. That’s why I list 1) and 2) . These dynamics have been ongoing for a very long time. 1) Israel’s overreaction was extremely predictable. 2) Hamas would have been very very aware of 1). 3) They chose to attack in Oct 2023. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 3, 2024 23:16
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Bar Ran Dun posted:No, that’s incorrect. That’s why I list 1) and 2) . These dynamics have been ongoing for a very long time. And these are the reasons why you think Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians?
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May 3, 2024 23:19
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Bar Ran Dun posted:No, that’s incorrect. That’s why I list 1) and 2) . These dynamics have been ongoing for a very long time. And you bring this up in response to a question of whether or not someone else believed Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinian people. Are we to believe that your answer is a non sequitur? Or do you have a position that you're unwilling to state plainly? Here, I'll even go first: I believe Hamas cares about the welfare of the Palestinian people.
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May 3, 2024 23:20
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Bar Ran Dun posted:There’s a whole lot of simplistic dualistic thinking happening. Bar I may respect you a whole lot, but you are running from answering a question that you don't like because it is forcing you to examine what you wrote out. What you wrote is something that you probably would not have done if you had thought it through some more, but instead you posted from the heart and as such have had to confront that bit of yourself. The search for complexity, for nuance in a situation that has it is a very common one, but it is not always necessary and it is sometimes an active impediment to doing good in the world.
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May 3, 2024 23:21
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Bar Ran Dun posted:No, that’s incorrect. That’s why I list 1) and 2) . These dynamics have been ongoing for a very long time. Someone should have told the guy who killed Earsnt von Rath or the Warsaw Ghetto insurgents that they were only provoking a Nazi overreaction. So much death could have been avoided! If you’re still not getting it Israel would have exterminated or displaced Palestine just as much as the Nazis would have eventually. Hamas chose to provoke them to fight on their own terms instead of die slowly in a way that westerners would find acceptable. Oct 7 wasn’t an inciting incident, as far as the military targets attacked by Hamas and PIJ it was the strategic response to decades of illegal military blockades and acts of war by Israel in order to achieve a clear political objective. If we’re allowed to call victims of genocide savages for fighting back can we call apartheid supporters and both side centrists freaks and cowards, where exactly is the line for  here?
Butter Activities fucked around with this message at 23:31 on May 3, 2024 |
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May 3, 2024 23:25
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Bar Ran Dun posted:No, that’s incorrect. That’s why I list 1) and 2) . These dynamics have been ongoing for a very long time. Israel has been committing slow motion genocide while the world watches for decades. They chose to risk speeding that up rather than die or be expelled quietly. The last time they did a peaceful protest Israel treated it as a shooting gallery. Their snipers had kneecapping contests. Don't act like they're irrationally ignoring a real peace process.
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May 3, 2024 23:33
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punishedkissinger posted:Weird since Biden was strongly supportive of the BLM protests Why is it weird? The American public views the recent events in the Middle East as instigated by Hamas and that's who they are blaming. Biden while he's not a zealous supporter of Israeli like Republicans he's still at a minimum sympathetic. I don't know what else to really say, it is sad but I/P is a low, low priority on voters mind and incredibly unlikely to sway the outcome of the 2024 US Election. It's something that supercharges young educated voters but those are tiny in number and most young people don't vote in the first place. Maybe if Netanyahu actually invades Rafa you'll see some changes but it's already known Biden's relationship with him isn't great anyway.
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May 3, 2024 23:41
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Charliegrs posted:Oct 7th and decades of suicide bombings showed that yes they are savages. Like I'm no fan of Israel but come on are people really trying to say Hamas are the good guys here? I want freedom for the Palestinians like every other sane person but I draw the line at defending Hamas. This is racist as hell. So many have been probated for far less than this. The decades of suicide bombings is a complete lie as it was realized after their advent that they were damaging to the Palestinian cause. Which is why you haven’t heard of it much since the end of the 90s. You are poorly informed then come in labeling people as savages? Go read up about Israeli military actions like the sniping of the Great March of Return and have a look at yourself.
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May 3, 2024 23:41
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Civilized Fishbot posted:The people in Gaza don't need to be saved from Hamas, they need to be saved from the State of Israel... Nice post, I've been thinking along the same lines. I.e. what if making this pier for the aid of Palestinians was never even the point, the ulterior motive being that the US/Israel are only really doing it to delegitimize or keep an eye on the resistance? I.e. Sure Palestinians need the aid, but it would also act as another front for the IDF/US intelligence to monitor the area. Surely Hamas or other resistance groups could have a hard time operating anywhere near there if it is considered to be neutral territory under the eye of the IDF/US? Yet if Hamas or 'Hamas' attacks any US soldier to avoid that scenario, then they're attacking the aid, therein hurting relations among their own people. Seems like a real net win for Israel to propose this. Also I don't know poo poo about avenues for humanitarian aid, but what is stopping the US from just air dropping food and medical supplies? Like, would that not be easier and cause less conflict compared to this weird pier that they demolished housing to construct?
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May 3, 2024 23:52
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Josef bugman posted:Bar I may respect you a whole lot, but you are running from answering a question that you don't like because it is forcing you to examine what you wrote out. What you wrote is something that you probably would not have done if you had thought it through some more, but instead you posted from the heart and as such have had to confront that bit of yourself. JB I’m not asserting an opinion. I’m listing three things that are generally regarded as factual. 1) Israel overreacts to attacks or even perceived attacks. 2) Hamas has been the object of those overreactions. Hamas knows how Israel overreacts. 3) Hamas took action in Oct 23. I’m very pointedly not concluding anything. I think Isreal is committing and intends to keep committing a genocide. My point is that 1-3 are facts, one can support 1) and 2) from a long history. I haven’t seen anyone dispute 3). I haven’t actually seen anyone dispute 1/2. Hamas considered Israeli normalization with Saudis as threatening enough to attack last October knowing the Israelis would react disproportionately. I’m not making a moral judgement about this. It is what it is.
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May 3, 2024 23:55
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Bar Ran Dun posted:JB So to answer the initial question: no, you do not think Hamas cares about the Palestinian people
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May 3, 2024 23:57
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Calling people who are being killed by colonial forces "savages" is certainly an old school bit of genocide rhetoric. And a phenomenally racist one to boot. Ban that person, please.
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May 4, 2024 00:00
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Charliegrs posted:Oct 7th and decades of suicide bombings showed that yes they are savages. Like I'm no fan of Israel but come on are people really trying to say Hamas are the good guys here? I want freedom for the Palestinians like every other sane person but I draw the line at defending Hamas.
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May 4, 2024 00:05
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Gucci Loafers posted:Why is it weird? usually you want to have a good reason to back a violent crack down on peaceful protesters. voters not being engaged with the issue being protested is not that. also, pretty much everything we know about Biden suggests that he is in fact a hardcore Zionist.
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May 4, 2024 00:16
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:So to answer the initial question: no, you do not think Hamas cares about the Palestinian people Hamas is a group. It’s not a person. Groups are not moral actors in the way individuals are. The self interest of groups is less restrained than individuals consequently. Do you think there is a divergence between the interests of Hamas and the interests of the Palestinians? I’m actively refraining from speculation . But you seem to think 1), 2) and 3) imply a conclusion. That’s a problem for you not me. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 4, 2024 00:17
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