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SplitSoul posted:Do you think they'd get more or less influence than when they sold out last time to back Mette Frederiksen? Last election, they even refused to consider asylum camps in Rwanda a dealbreaker and they were still sent packing, sans a quarter of their popular support. They're not getting any influence any way because their only options are to support socialdemokratiet or get shut out. They are trying to do some realpolitik to get invited to negotiations so they at least get to try to pull a bit, but obviously that's going to be less ideologically pure. In the Rwanda camp example, there was no way EL could stop that project by themselves, but by not being completely opposed they could hope to at least get some oversight or something. I do agree that they should go all in on Palestine, especially since it seems like there's a lot more public support than their traditional voter base, but I kinda get not wanting to be labelled antisemitic and just shut out of everything like that happened to Jeremy Corbyn. Basically, I don't think getting socialist thought made into policy is possible in the current political landscape, no matter if the left party goes hard or soft.
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May 5, 2024 05:48
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BonHair posted:Basically, I don't think getting socialist thought made into policy is possible in the current political landscape, no matter if the left party goes hard or soft. This is probably true, but that doesn't make EL's both-sides'ing of a genocide any less contemptible. There is a lot of public support for Palestine, so even from a cynical perspective, they should probably try to capture that. On Rwanda, I think we all know what it looks like when a party collaborates with the people building camps to try to moderate their behavior. It's unlikely that Corbyn could have avoided being accused of antisemitism, look at how that accusation is slung around by Zionists at anyone that even implies Palestinians might be people. EL should not try to moderate in fear of that label, they're going to get slapped with it unless they offer full throated support for Israel. Esran fucked around with this message at 09:11 on May 5, 2024 |
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May 5, 2024 09:07
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It's not like there's a shortage of left-presenting parties that will abandon any and all principles for a shot at influence. Hopeless idealists (which apparently now includes anyone who thinks genocide ought to be opposed) may not be a winning demographic, but it's got to be a bigger catch than trying to siphon your neighbor's base.
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May 5, 2024 10:50
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Esran posted:It's unlikely that Corbyn could have avoided being accused of antisemitism, look at how that accusation is slung around by Zionists at anyone that even implies Palestinians might be people. EL should not try to moderate in fear of that label, they're going to get slapped with it unless they offer full throated support for Israel.
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May 5, 2024 10:58
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:It's not like there's a shortage of left-presenting parties that will abandon any and all principles for a shot at influence. Hopeless idealists (which apparently now includes anyone who thinks genocide ought to be opposed) may not be a winning demographic, but it's got to be a bigger catch than trying to siphon your neighbor's base. Are we counting socialdemokratiet here? Because it's them, SF and EL, the rest are extremely marginal. One good thing about EL is that they rotate out their people so they don't get too Christiansborgbrained. I don't know when Dragsted is out, but I'm betting his replacement will have a "less nuanced" stand on Palestine, by which I mean a firm anti Israel stance. For the record, I agree that they should go all in on calling out the genocide, but I get why they don't. Especially because it would be cool to have been unambiguously on the right side before it hopefully becomes the mainstream opinion.
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May 5, 2024 11:09
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Communism is about failure.
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May 5, 2024 11:30
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Jack Trades posted:Communism is about failure. Communism is about *being* failed, comrade.
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May 5, 2024 12:21
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for every socialist party in our day there are a bunch of internal issues that need to be navigated, including some quite intractable ideological ones which everyone has sort of tacitly agreed to stop talking about. one of the big ones is the division between the meta-political and the practical-political inclinations. for the practical-political types, they see that they can acheive better election results by not saying anything too controversial and focussing on narrow, popular issues (in rødt in norway, for instance, energy policy is a big winner for the party) while de-emphasising the big, radical positions like NATO membership and nominal commitment to socialism. for the meta-political types, the other stuff is a means to the end of building a broader socialist movement which can hopefully - at some point, at some time - change society in a fundamental way. a modern political party is almost necessarily going to be dominated by practical-political types, but a lot of the activist core is made up of people who don't really care whether the party makes 6 or 7% in the polls but who do want very much to explain to everybody why socialism is necessary/why imperialism is bad/why our government is not morally superior to [insert unpleasant regime here]. as a middle-class guy, the things that the party can do for me don't make that big an immediate impact in my life, and so that small electoral edge matters much less than whether i can tell people how much the EU sucks, for instance. the measure of a competent leadership of such a party is the extent to which they can keep a lid on these contradictions. as the full-time parliamentary politicians increase their influence within a party (as they inevitably do for very natural reasons), the meta-politically inclined activist types start getting seriously anxious quite quickly. that tends to culminate in a specific legislative agenda, typically something to do with foreign policy. palestine's a possible such issue, for SV it was the libya bombing campaign, for rødt now we saw the policy of arming ukraine as this sort of issue. the party typically survives if the practical-political types win out, but it will tend to lose a lot of its radicalism very quickly. this leads to a gradual replacement of the party cadres, and a "normalisation" of the party along with an ever-deeper contempt for the "true believers". as we saw with corbyn, this contempt can manifest in outright sabotage of the party itself for factional reasons, but because the meta-political types by definition have controversial opinions this is generally tolerated or even celebrated by polite society. and so it goes. at the moment both EL and Rødt are completely dominated by the "practical" faction and they seem to be quite keen on distancing themselves as far as possible from radicalism - the stance on palestine has generally been decent with Rødt, but the "common sense" on palestine in norway is actually abnormally pro-palestinian for historical reasons
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May 5, 2024 12:29
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Wont't the most successful outcome of continually distancing yourself from radicalism to chase voters be to replace the social democratic party, but in the process have commited yourself to largely the same policies? Radicalism may be unpopular and unrealistic, but if you can convince enough people at least you can make meaningful improvements to society.
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May 5, 2024 14:19
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BonHair posted:I don't know when Dragsted is out, but I'm betting his replacement will have a "less nuanced" stand on Palestine, by which I mean a firm anti Israel stance. His stance is backed by the executive committee, he's not going solo this time. It was their decision that opened up for supporting some of the pro-Palestinian protests after half a year of genocide.
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May 5, 2024 14:22
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Party In My Diapee posted:Wont't the most successful outcome of continually distancing yourself from radicalism to chase voters be to replace the social democratic party, but in the process have commited yourself to largely the same policies? yes, the logical endpoint is a syriza-style situation where you're left with some of the radical baggage and a programme largely indistinguishable from whichever social-democratic or social-liberal party you replaced. avoiding this takes a genuine social movement, as happened when the labour movement seized hegemony from the social-liberals in the twentieth century and formed several honestly quite successful governments.
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May 5, 2024 15:49
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Esran posted:Don't think it would change much, EL already has no moral fiber. quote:27 medlemmer står bag teksten, som lægger op til et opgør med tostatspolitikken og rejser et reelt krav om en afvikling af Israel som selvstændig stat, så der i stedet kan oprettes én stor, sekulær palæstinesisk stat. LOL and may I add LMAO, sure go ahead and try to outright abolish a sovereign nation with all your might as 27 members of a frankly marginal political party, good luck have fun. Of course the creation of Israel and the screwing over of the Palestinians was a huge mistake, but a lot of water has flowed under that bridge since and we can't just naively ctrl-z our way out of it.
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May 6, 2024 18:27
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I don't know why you think "you don't have the might to force your solution through" should be a factor when deciding a party's direction. I guess this must make support for a two-state solution equally ridiculous? Getting Israel to accept that would also require military force. If that's your standard, every party should just go ahead and be fully in favor of genocide, because none of them have the hardware to force Israel or the US to stop. The creation of Israel was not a "mistake" that well-intentioned people just happened to make by accident either. edit: Would you have said the same if this was a party calling for the end of Apartheid in 1980? I don't think they had the guns to force SA to do that. Esran fucked around with this message at 19:13 on May 6, 2024 |
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May 6, 2024 19:07
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KozmoNaut posted:LOL and may I add LMAO, sure go ahead and try to outright abolish a sovereign nation with all your might as 27 members of a frankly marginal political party, good luck have fun.
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May 6, 2024 19:09
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KozmoNaut posted:LOL and may I add LMAO, sure go ahead and try to outright abolish a sovereign nation with all your might as 27 members of a frankly marginal political party, good luck have fun. Yes, I'm sure these members of EL are convinced they can materially affect the nuclear-armed rabid genocide dog by internally trying to nudge their miniscule party in their miniscule country toward the singular moral position, that's what this is about.
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May 6, 2024 20:21
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Esran posted:I don't know why you think "you don't have the might to force your solution through" should be a factor when deciding a party's direction. who do we think we are, cuba???
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May 6, 2024 20:30
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A political party adding "abolish this specific country" is a winning tactic, you're right. It's so simple, badabing badaboom. Unlike a lot of other people, I don't pretend to have simple solutions to ridiculously complex issues. Historically, putting people who promise such things in power does not have a great track record.
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May 7, 2024 06:01
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KozmoNaut posted:Historically, putting people who promise such things in power does not have a great track record. 
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May 7, 2024 09:11
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KozmoNaut posted:A political party adding "abolish this specific country" is a winning tactic, you're right. It's so simple, badabing badaboom.
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May 7, 2024 18:14
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KozmoNaut posted:Unlike a lot of other people, I don't pretend to have simple solutions to ridiculously complex issues. Yeah, it's just so complex. The settler colonialist project with the goal of establishing a racist pureblood utopia and putting Jews at the top of a racial hierarchy can't just end, and wanting that is just too reductive. Thank God you're so smart that you see through such demagoguery. We should instead listen to the good liberals who will explain the nuances of genocide and why the existence of the colonial ethnostate that's less than a century old is sancrosanct. Edit: You can make this facile argument to oppose making literally any change to the status quo. Almost any substantial change is complex. That doesn't preemptively make the goal invalid. I assume in your view, people were fools to want Apartheid to end, because I'm sure that was a ridiculously complex issue as well? Esran fucked around with this message at 18:39 on May 7, 2024 |
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May 7, 2024 18:16
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Let us leave the opposed camps on argument for the one true camp experience: Eurovision *gently caress Israel tho
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May 7, 2024 20:01
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I see, so everyone in Israel is directly complicit and evil? Really? You cannot simply displace an entire populace just like that. Even by overwhelming force that's a massively tall order. There is no simple solution, and both Gaza and the West Bank are too damaged and destroyed by decades of Israel's incursion and land grabs. There has to be a plan and "abolish Israel" is no plan. Honestly, just shut it with your ridiculous strawmen. I have always been and will always be for the freedom and independence of the Palestinian people. And I don't believe in simple solutions to complex issues, no matter how tempting they may be. Edit: perhaps you should try not immediately resorting to demonizing people over slight disagreements. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 20:20 on May 7, 2024 |
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May 7, 2024 20:08
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KozmoNaut posted:I see, so everyone in Israel is directly complicit and evil? Really? You know when people say DTI, they're not talking about killing all Israelis, right? What people generally mean when they talk about the dissolution of Israel in favor of a secular Palestinian state is not that they support the ethnic cleansing of the region, it's that a two-state solution is unrealistic, so the Zionist project should be ended in favor of a shared secular state in which present-day Palestinians and present-day Israelis can live. (Not saying that this is all that realistic either, but the two-state solution is completely dead, Palestine can't survive with Israel as a neighbor) This misunderstanding is why you're getting such strong reactions. KozmoNaut posted:Edit: perhaps you should try not immediately resorting to demonizing people over slight disagreements. I'm not demonizing you. You've expressed the opinion that it is wrong or bad or laughable to call for the end of Israel. I'm trying to explain to you why you're wrong to feel that way, why your reasoning is bad, and asking you to think about how that opinion will age, considering the exact same argument could have been made in favor of Apartheid. And I might be making fun of you a little bit because "Unlike a lot of other people, I don't pretend to have simple solutions to ridiculously complex issues." comes off as incredibly smug. Esran fucked around with this message at 20:38 on May 7, 2024 |
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May 7, 2024 20:33
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Did I state anywhere that the Zionist project should continue? No? Then stop imagining that I did. Putting "abolish the state of Israel" in the political program of a Danish political party is exceedingly silly, and is as blatantly populist as the right-wing parties that people in this thread point and laugh at.
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May 7, 2024 20:43
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 You are saying that it's ridiculous or wrong to call for Israel to be abolished. Israel is the Zionist project. If your objection is that you'd rather have EL put "Work to end the Zionist project" in their party program, then I don't think anyone would object. They mean the same thing. To me, putting "abolish the state of Israel" in a political program is similar to putting "abolish Apartheid" in a political program. I doubt a Danish political party will accomplish it, but it's good to know where they stand.
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May 7, 2024 20:57
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Maybe you should explain in clear language what you think "abolish the state of Israel" means, because you are reading something into that statement that isn't there.
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May 7, 2024 21:03
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Somewhat related question. Who am I supposed to vote for when the only political party that aligns with my views is full of loving idiots?
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May 7, 2024 21:06
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Jack Trades posted:Somewhat related question. I'm planning on casting blank votes until the situation changes and they get their poo poo together, so probably for a while. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 21:21 on May 7, 2024 |
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May 7, 2024 21:19
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Jack Trades posted:Somewhat related question. You're going to need to be *much* more specific
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May 7, 2024 21:19
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Jack Trades posted:Somewhat related question. Quoting for posterity
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May 7, 2024 21:20
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Rust Martialis posted:You're going to need to be *much* more specific Swedish V only seem to employ the most incompetent people.
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May 7, 2024 21:23
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Ending apartheid and the occupation is literally the same thing as abolishing the state of Israel, both are intrinsic to its existence as "Israel". That's what the proposal means. Also, yes, the overwhelming majority of Israelis who support the genocide, and believe either adequate or too little firepower is being used, are all morally complicit. Everyone in the IDF is materially complicit. Jack Trades posted:Somewhat related question. Don't vote.
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May 7, 2024 22:07
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KozmoNaut posted:I see, so everyone in Israel is directly complicit and evil? Really? It’s a goal, not a plan. There does not have to be a plan. You make those after you set your goals. As you have so astutely stated it’s a very complex issue, what would be ridiculous is for them to have made a plan to abolish Israel. Politics is the battleground of ideas, maaaan. Dare to loving dream you coward
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May 7, 2024 22:29
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https://youtube.com/shorts/SAvdH5rYPE8?si=etXsrADDSRZ03mNd
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May 7, 2024 23:59
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May 8, 2024 10:38
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Jack Trades posted:Somewhat related question. You hold your nose and vote for the loving idiots, you hold your nose and vote for a party that doesn't align with your views, you vote blank or not at all, or you join the party and try not to be an idiot to dilute the idiot levels.
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May 8, 2024 14:53
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i'm not a fan of central bankers constantly saying how we need to stop having wage increases to keep interest rates down tbh
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May 10, 2024 19:11
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V. Illych L. posted:i'm not a fan of central bankers constantly saying how we need to stop having wage increases to keep interest rates down tbh They can gently caress off. Also the Norwegian oil fund poo poo where they require payment in NOK and then have to sell NOK to get USD for the foreign part of the fund? or whatever? (I may be wrong about how that works) ... why? just loving why?
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May 10, 2024 21:03
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V. Illych L. posted:i'm not a fan of central bankers constantly saying how we need to stop having wage increases to keep interest rates down tbh
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May 11, 2024 10:36
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V. Illych L. posted:i'm not a fan of central bankers constantly saying how we need to stop having wage increases to keep interest rates down tbh To be fair, they also said we should be doing more yoga. 
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May 11, 2024 11:21
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