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VikingofRock posted:How was the Guardian in general against enemies that were weaker than L+4? I feel like most classes feel pretty bad against an enemy that strong, and L+4 fights are comparatively rare, so while this trip report is still valid (and you should still definitely send your feedback to Paizo), you might be getting a bit of a skewed perception of the class if you are judging primarily based on that encounter. Yeah, L+4 fights are rare outside of the final fight of an AP, and are supposed to have a serious risk of a TPK.
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May 6, 2024 21:23
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VikingofRock posted:How was the Guardian in general against enemies that were weaker than L+4? I feel like most classes feel pretty bad against an enemy that strong, and L+4 fights are comparatively rare, so while this trip report is still valid (and you should still definitely send your feedback to Paizo), you might be getting a bit of a skewed perception of the class if you are judging primarily based on that encounter. It functioned ok during the on-level fight. Certainly much better. At that point the DR feels much more like it matters so Intercept Strike is more useful. Taunt is also much more functional, mostly because of encounter math. Also Raise Tower Shield + Armor Prof's high AC means that Hampering strikes becomes a big problem for your opponents as they are gonna have trouble connecting to get rid of you. However, the biggest problem I have is that 4e Defenders felt like guys who were out there contributing as active participants, and part of their kit was "Might be a good idea to target me, just sayin'" Whereas this guy feels much more passive, like a bodyguard who jumps in front of punches, or a tar pit. I'm sure some people are going to love that but I found it really yucky. I had more here about how busted Hampering Strikes was and such but there's nothing else much to say. The class is just a big miss for me personally. Even in the on-level fights I was thinking about how a Fighter can do a lot of the same things, functionally, and actually has real offense.
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May 6, 2024 21:34
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i feel like that says as much about fighter simply being the strongest martial rather than guardian being the weakest, but both are simultaneously true
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May 6, 2024 22:08
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Mister Olympus posted:i feel like that says as much about fighter simply being the strongest martial rather than guardian being the weakest, but both are simultaneously true One of the reasons I tested a Level 7 Guardian was because of the non-martial weapon proficiency advancement, this was the "catch up" level, and - at least in my opinion - there's absolutely nothing this class can do that makes it "deserve" a -2 to hit on certain levels vs. standard martials. I just do not know what they were trying to do with this class.
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May 6, 2024 22:38
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Just got done with our most intense session of Stolen Fate yet and it wasn't because of any combats, we breezed through those, but because of an hour long philosophical debate between two characters (spoilers for the end of stolen fate)About the nature of free will and whether or not we should agree to help the Norns. Funnily enough what ultimately swayed the debate and made us oppose the Norns wasn't actually that we reached any kind of agreement, but simply the fact that they threatened to kill the 'traitor' PC who wouldn't agree to their plan and erase them from existence. At this point my character, who had basically been angling to work with the Norns out of nihilism, decided that actually if they were going to kill her friend she was going to stand with him, and if that was to be her Fate so be it. This completely turned the discussion around and we actually managed to convince the Norns to let us go and do our own thing. I feel a little bad for the two guys who didn't participate much and clearly just hoped to move on though.
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May 6, 2024 22:44
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Sorry to chain post but in the interest of fairness: here's a guy who plays PF2e Champion who tried the Guardian and liked it (and thinks it's a better tank than the Champ!). A nice change of pace from the sourpuss grumblings of an old 4e-head like me. https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1clrgc7/guardian_early_feedback_warning_very_long/ The interesting thing is I agree with almost everything he said, but the degree of severity is way off. For example, he mentions the Stride -> Taunt -> Raise Shield turn, and the fact that all but one party member has to play extremely tight to the Guardian for Intercept Strike to work, but didn't seem to hate that as much as I did. Man, I hated it!
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May 6, 2024 22:59
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Sorry to chain post but in the interest of fairness: here's a guy who plays PF2e Champion who tried the Guardian and liked it (and thinks it's a better tank than the Champ!). A nice change of pace from the sourpuss grumblings of an old 4e-head like me. yeah this was an interesting one to read, just because the arguments and conclusion don't seem to match up personally if i was going to conclude my essay saying 'it's quite comparable to this other class, except the other class is also a full caster with spells' that would be the most dire indictment i could possibly levy rather than a mild criticism
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May 6, 2024 23:15
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I haven't played the new Guardian yet, but from looking over it it definitely doesn't seem like it's as good as existing alternatives that do the same thing. Champions have the same armor proficiency and specialization in their kit, and a Champion with Retributive Strike grants the exact same DR as Intercept Strike at a more flexible range. The distinction of Intercept Strike diverting the damage to the Guardian doesn't mean a whole lot if the Guardian doesn't naturally have any self-healing or something to make their HP more economical than anyone else's even before Retributive Strike giving the champion a free non-MAP attack at the same time. Champion even has Lay on Hands for self-healing, so Guardian really ought to have some sort of innate temp HP generation. Unless I somehow missed it Guardian doesn't even seem to get Quick Shield Block, which seems like a massive oversight for the 'tanking' class. Taunt is a neat ability, but it seems a little counter-intuitive. The bonus to attacks against you obviously relegates it to only be used against stuff unlikely to attack you (enemies that would have to move or disengage from your allies to attack you), but even without that bonus it would still be a wasted action against something focused on you so I don't know why they felt that was necessary. You can effectively get taunts for free with your Raise Shield actions via the class feat, but the effect is still gated by a Will save too. As other people have mentioned Hampering Sweeps is basically broken, but it's just a 2nd-level feat so you could easily snag it with an archetype as early as 4th on any other class anyway. The class itself could use some improvements to its core features. I've actually had a character idea for awhile that abused all the Hobgoblin 'taunt' feats and snagging Antagonize from Swashbuckler to force enemies to waste their actions attacking a character with a tower shield and Champion AC, and it's really disappointing that Guardian doesn't seem like a better fit for that than Champion is when that's clearly what it's going for. Vanguard Warden fucked around with this message at 23:32 on May 6, 2024 |
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May 6, 2024 23:19
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Vanguard Warden posted:Champions have the same armor proficiency and specialization in their kit Slight correction: Champs get their 2 of their armor proficiency advancements (Master and Legendary) a few levels later, and get Armor Specialization at Level 7 instead of Level 1, and as far as I know never get Greater Armor Specialization. Overall, at level 17 they're exactly the same as a Guardian except they don't have the Guardian's Greater Armor Specialization, which doubles their rune value for resistance granted by their armor specialization (an additional 3 points more resistance at level 18, lol). "You are known for your suit of armor more than the person inside." That's the description for the Guardian's Mastery feat at level 19. The actual difference: A Guardian wearing plate at that level has 3 whole points of resistance to slashing damage over a Champion, who - by the way - is thought of as a person and not as an ambulatory suit of armor! Wow!
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May 7, 2024 00:19
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To be fair, Guardian Mastery also giving them a fake Legendary reflex save by way of Super Mega Bulwark is neat. Just, uh, shame about most of the rest of the class.
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May 7, 2024 00:28
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Reminds me of pacifist clerics in 4E, except the 4E pacifist cleric was actually good. I think being a pacifist healer or a purely-defensive tank is dumb, but I understand that it appeals to some people. I don't think the game supports the playstyle, though, so you'd have to do a hell of a lot of work to design those characters to not end up a net negative for the party.
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May 7, 2024 00:39
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the funniest thing is guardian, either as a main class or a multiclass, is probably the key to making evil champion workable with their selfish reactions. and it's telling that the comparable effect on a guardian is one from a set of subclasses that's generally agreed to be very bad at their intended role
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May 7, 2024 01:18
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Slight correction: Champs get their 2 of their armor proficiency advancements (Master and Legendary) a few levels later, and get Armor Specialization at Level 7 instead of Level 1, and as far as I know never get Greater Armor Specialization. Overall, at level 17 they're exactly the same as a Guardian except they don't have the Guardian's Greater Armor Specialization, which doubles their rune value for resistance granted by their armor specialization (an additional 3 points more resistance at level 18, lol). Ah yes, all of the core classes follow only one or two progression templates for that stuff so I always miss it when they make minor tweaks like that. And yes, Champions don't get Greater Armor Specialization but it's not only a small and specific bonus but also doesn't stack with the resistance from Intercept Strike or Mitigate Harm anyway. Mister Olympus posted:the funniest thing is guardian, either as a main class or a multiclass, is probably the key to making evil champion workable with their selfish reactions. and it's telling that the comparable effect on a guardian is one from a set of subclasses that's generally agreed to be very bad at their intended role Ooh, that is a fun idea. Dipping Tyrant or Antipaladin for the reaction would be a great way to punish anything that attacks you after the taunt, and with Quick Intercept at 8th you could even chain Intercept Strike directly into the Champion reaction to force-trigger it. Vanguard Warden fucked around with this message at 02:35 on May 7, 2024 |
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May 7, 2024 02:25
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atelier morgan posted:yeah this was an interesting one to read, just because the arguments and conclusion don't seem to match up If they said "hot take, Warpriest is the best at being a melee fighter in heavy armor", I'd agree with you. However, their argument was "hot take, Warpriest may be the best tank", and I think that may just be a big-brained hot take. After all, the crux of the entire conversation around Guardian is that tanking is about leaping into the middle of a fight and controlling the flow of combat and who attacks what and whether Guardian is actually good at that. For Warpriest to be the best tank, their full spellcasting would have to handle the entire weight of letting you control opponents in a fight since you're otherwise completely reliant on grappling and tripping to do that and since grappling gets in the way of spells you can only do one or the other. (They don't even get attacks of opportunity.) Does the divine spell list have enough controlling tools to make that playstyle work? I haven't looked at the divine spell list in that light, but I wouldn't be surprised if it could. But can it do enough to actually fulfill the tank fantasy better than the Champion or the theoretical improved post-playtest Guardian? I doubt it, even if can take as many hits as them.
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May 7, 2024 02:46
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I think the idea is that Protection domain Clerics get a focus spell as a reaction to take some of the damage a target takes in their stead, and the Share Life divine spell just makes you take half of all damage a target suffers for 10 minutes. Less preventing enemies from attacking allies and more just redirecting the damage around artificially. Certainly not as satisfying as putting a monster in a headlock.
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May 7, 2024 03:25
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Meanwhile I played a session with a lvl12 Commander and it was great fun. Class is great.
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May 7, 2024 03:38
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:It functioned ok during the on-level fight. Certainly much better. At that point the DR feels much more like it matters so Intercept Strike is more useful. Taunt is also much more functional, mostly because of encounter math. Also Raise Tower Shield + Armor Prof's high AC means that Hampering strikes becomes a big problem for your opponents as they are gonna have trouble connecting to get rid of you. However, the biggest problem I have is that 4e Defenders felt like guys who were out there contributing as active participants, and part of their kit was "Might be a good idea to target me, just sayin'" Whereas this guy feels much more passive, like a bodyguard who jumps in front of punches, or a tar pit. I'm sure some people are going to love that but I found it really yucky. My first thought when I read the class was that it has, like, no good enforcement mechanic.
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May 7, 2024 03:57
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Got my Howl of the Wild PDF. happy to answer questions. A few highlights: Minotaurs rule, weremoose are a thing, there’s a bunch of new animal instinct barbarian animal options, including a Tyrannosaurus with a D8/DeadlyD12 bite and a seperate agile follow up, and, a Spider Instinct that gives a zero damage web shooter ranged attack. Yes, spider man is a barbarian. Archetypes include a stance dancer claw attack build that cartwheels between attacking in a hand/claw attack and hand standing and attacking with talons on its feet, a wing-fighter archetype that includes support for spell casting and aerial bombardment alchemists, and a literal Blue Mage/Gau archetype. Oh, and Merfolk have a 9th level feat that lets them ditch their tail and walk on legs whenever they want. This feat is at the same level as the Siren’s Song feat. So basically, they have to choose between legs and their voice.
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May 8, 2024 13:11
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Ooh my Howl of the Wild PDF is available for download, too! Time to get skimming!
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May 8, 2024 14:30
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Chevy Slyme posted:Oh, and Merfolk have a 9th level feat that lets them ditch their tail and walk on legs whenever they want. This feat is at the same level as the Siren’s Song feat. So basically, they have to choose between legs and their voice. Ursula strikes again 
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May 8, 2024 14:47
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Want to hear more about the blue mage archetype.
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May 8, 2024 16:55
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It looks pretty interesting, but I could see it being pretty dependent on the GM. They did the blue mage thing where you have to see the attack or identify the attack, so if the GM isn't paying attention you couldn't get the abilities. Although, the template would probably work with other monster abilities and a good GM could probably homebrew some stuff pretty easily to add more feats.quote:REND MIMICRY [one-action] FEAT 4 I missed this at first, but they also appear to have access to some older feats along with the new ones in the book. quote:Additional Feats: 4th Animal Empathy (Player Core 158), Crane Stance (Player Core 2), Gorilla Stance (Player Core 2), Tiger Stance (Player Core 2), Wolf Stance (Player Core 2); 8th Crane Flutter (Player Core 2), Gorilla Pound (Player Core 2), Tiger Slash (Player Core 2), Wolf Drag (Player Core 2). Edit: Just a bit more information. They have feats for the monster abilities ferocity, rend, "electrogenesis" (enemy emits electricity when attacked), petrifying gaze, trample, roar and pounce. gurragadon fucked around with this message at 17:19 on May 8, 2024 |
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May 8, 2024 17:10
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Absalom canonically has unions, so I wrote up a post expanding on that and giving advice to GM's about incorporating labor organizations in their games. Mostly Absalom-focused, but has some ideas that work in other places/settings.
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May 8, 2024 17:25
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I am very excited for Howl of the Wild. Are the Witch patrons in there? I've been told there's one that is fungus themed.
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May 8, 2024 18:05
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gurragadon posted:It looks pretty interesting, but I could see it being pretty dependent on the GM. They did the blue mage thing where you have to see the attack or identify the attack, so if the GM isn't paying attention you couldn't get the abilities. Although, the template would probably work with other monster abilities and a good GM could probably homebrew some stuff pretty easily to add more feats. starts chanting diegetic diegetic diegetic diegetic
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May 8, 2024 18:23
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Hellioning posted:I am very excited for Howl of the Wild. Are the Witch patrons in there? I've been told there's one that is fungus themed. Three new witch patrons. The Devourer of Decay is about scavengers and rot - fungi are explicitly cited as an option, as are various other on theme creatures and types. Their Hex applies Frightened that can’t be reduced below 1, and you can end the frightened to heal an ally who lands a crit on the target, and your familiar can apply Sickened to wounded enemies when you hex/sustain. The focus spell inflicts a fungal disease that enfeebles and can slow as it progresses each round. The Ripple in the Deep is your kraken/oceanic megafauna/Cthulhu patron; the hex conjures tentacles to wrap around your foes face impairing their vision or blinding them, and the familiar conjures waves that push enemies away. The higher level focus spell summons spectral sharks to do damage, and you get a free sustain if you deal slashing damage (because the sharks are attracted to the blood) The Whisper of Wings is bird/insect themed. Hex spell lets you designate a target (you can be the target) and an enemy’s and if the enemy moves towards the target they have to make a will save or take damage for doing so. The familiar gets to fly. The focus spell lets your familiar grow big wings to give an ally cover as a reaction while they move.
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May 8, 2024 18:59
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Those are so much better than most existing Witch patrons after remaster lmao. Are they all Primal spell list patrons or are they Occult? Also: does this include new lessons for the Witch feats, or is it just patrons? Clerical Terrors fucked around with this message at 19:09 on May 8, 2024 |
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May 8, 2024 19:06
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Chevy Slyme posted:Three new witch patrons. The Devourer of Decay is about scavengers and rot - fungi are explicitly cited as an option, as are various other on theme creatures and types. Their Hex applies Frightened that can’t be reduced below 1, and you can end the frightened to heal an ally who lands a crit on the target, and your familiar can apply Sickened to wounded enemies when you hex/sustain. The focus spell inflicts a fungal disease that enfeebles and can slow as it progresses each round. Excellent, I enjoy all of these! Thank you.
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May 8, 2024 19:23
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Those witch patrons sound great, might be tempted to play a caster again.
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May 8, 2024 19:26
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Clerical Terrors posted:Those are so much better than most existing Witch patrons after remaster lmao. Are they all Primal spell list patrons or are they Occult? Each new patron has a new lesson (that’s the higher level focus spell I referred to) and all three are Primal. There’s three other new feats for any witch. A level 2 that gives you a single action to make your familiar do damage to a swarm (that triggers swarm weaknesses), a reaction to a creature reaching 0 hit points that allows you to read a “fortune” of what damage type will be good; for the next round; all allies that do damage of that type are treated as hitting a weakness of your witches level. And a 6th level feat to buff witches armaments. They’re still garbage. But slightly more flavorful garbage?
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May 8, 2024 19:30
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Chevy Slyme posted:a reaction to a creature reaching 0 hit points that allows you to read a “fortune” of what damage type will be good; for the next round; all allies that do damage of that type are treated as hitting a weakness of your witches level My Spinner witch is very interested in this.
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May 8, 2024 19:45
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kingcobweb posted:Absalom canonically has unions, so I wrote up a post expanding on that and giving advice to GM's about incorporating labor organizations in their games. Mostly Absalom-focused, but has some ideas that work in other places/settings. I'd buy a whole book just for this.
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May 8, 2024 20:26
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Kyrosiris posted:My Spinner witch is very interested in this. PORTENTS OF THE HARUSPEX 2 REACTION FEAT 4 CONCENTRATE PREDICTION WITCH Trigger A creature within 30 feet is reduced to 0 Hit Points in a way that doesn't destroy their body. Although the divinations of a haruspex traditionally require organs and lengthy interpretation, you've learned how to glimpse the future in a more simple fashion by reading creatures' wounds. The glimpse of the future gives guidance on what tools are best to use next. Roll 1d12 to determine the damage type favored by your prediction. The next time before the end of your next turn that you or your allies deals that damage type to an enemy, that enemy has weakness equal to your level against that damage. [D12 table goes here; acid, bludgeoning, Cold, Electricity, Fire, Mental, Piercing, Poison, Slashing]
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May 8, 2024 20:42
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Big Mouth Billy Basshole posted:Those witch patrons sound great, might be tempted to play a caster again. Remaster Witch was already very good, but these patrons are nothing short of amazing. Especially because the only other primal patrons were on the weaker side in terms of utility (Silence in Snow was only really good for the 1-action cantrip).
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May 8, 2024 21:42
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Chevy Slyme posted:Roll 1d12 to determine the damage type favored by your prediction. The next time before the end of your next turn that you or your allies deals that damage type to an enemy, that enemy has weakness equal to your level against that damage. Oh drat, that would be really good in a party with an alchemist since they can pull whatever damage type they want out of nowhere and bombs still damage via splash on a miss regardless. It's only a 4th-level class feat too, so you could pick it up through an archetype as early as 8th.
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May 8, 2024 22:07
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Clerical Terrors posted:Remaster Witch was already very good, but these patrons are nothing short of amazing. Especially because the only other primal patrons were on the weaker side in terms of utility (Silence in Snow was only really good for the 1-action cantrip). Devourer of Decay seems significantly better than the other two. The winged one feels lackluster to me, but I suppose if you are straining your familiar ability budget to fit flying (and really leaning hard into active familiar play) you can make something interesting there. Ripple is fine.
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May 8, 2024 22:26
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the_steve posted:Ursula strikes again I also forgot to mention, in this extremely Disney book, along with that, and the obvious Awakened Animal shenanigans… there is a new Zoophone muse for bards that is literally just “be a Disney Princess and sing to animals and make friends with all of the animals and have them defend you from harm.”
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May 8, 2024 23:11
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Chevy Slyme posted:I also forgot to mention, in this extremely Disney book, along with that, and the obvious Awakened Animal shenanigans… there is a new Zoophone muse for bards that is literally just “be a Disney Princess and sing to animals and make friends with all of the animals and have them defend you from harm.” 
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May 9, 2024 01:03
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atelier morgan posted:yeah this was an interesting one to read, just because the arguments and conclusion don't seem to match up Right, but if he's saying that he's also saying the champion is quite comparable to the warpriest. If you take a warpriest and fill their spell slots with damage mitigation spells they can mitigate damage like a champion or guardian (until they run out of spell slots). A warpriest who fills all available slots with Heal will be able to cast it 13 times at level 5. After that he loses his "damage mitigation" abilities. While Champions and Guardians have things that are once per round or once every 10 minutes all day long. So if you are at a table where the casters go nova with spells and then have a long rest after 2 fights the warpriest will be awesome, but if at your table the party can't afford to spend 20 of every 24 hours resting so you have to do many fights per day and casters are regularly tapped out then the martials will pull ahead of the warpriest.
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May 9, 2024 07:12
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Facebook Aunt posted:Right, but if he's saying that he's also saying the champion is quite comparable to the warpriest. If you take a warpriest and fill their spell slots with damage mitigation spells they can mitigate damage like a champion or guardian (until they run out of spell slots). the conclusion of this is that a wood kineticist with guardian tree and healing fruits on tap is the best damage mitigator in pf2
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May 9, 2024 07:16
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