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Jay Rust
Sep 27, 2011

cheetah7071 posted:

I heard you like maps

This "Tinto Maps" series feels like it more clearly encapsulates the purpose of this weird slow-roll announcement. They clearly lay out what they want feedback on: maps are hard, surely we've made some mistakes, let's fix them together before we actually launch. And if you filter by dev posts, Pavia has four or five times gone "thanks for the suggestion, I've forwarded it to the team". The core game mechanics are much harder to change on a whim according to forums feedback (though they've made at least two changes already that I've noticed), but shifting some borders slightly so that people from all over the world can go "wow! they got my home exactly right!" is the exact kind of thing that outsources well to internet nerds

I prefer it when trade goods are icons on the map and not text. Could someone with a paradox forum account post this post on their forum? Thx!

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Jay Rust
Sep 27, 2011

I have a eu4 ux comment too: let us hide completed missions on the mission screen

Theswarms
Dec 20, 2005

MonsieurChoc posted:

Now add the disasters.

I need dwarfs for a game to be good.

Roadie
Jun 30, 2013

disjoe posted:

They realized the key to success is to just make all the new mission trees super OP.

That’s not a veiled criticism, it’s great.

Cue Syndrome memes, etc etc.

mfcrocker
Jan 31, 2004



Hot Rope Guy
I'm not convinced Austria needed a free PU over Castille, but it sure is fun

Jay Rust
Sep 27, 2011

In my Inca game it’s 1570 and AI Austria has all of Great Britain and most of France (France also doesn’t exist), I’m guessing this is from their new missions?

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk
College Slice

Jay Rust posted:

In my Inca game it’s 1570 and AI Austria has all of Great Britain and most of France (France also doesn’t exist), I’m guessing this is from their new missions?

no, the mission tree doesn't really give them anything they didn't already have besides Spain. I'm guessing England was a random lucky PU. France probably got broken when Austria inherited Burgundy and declared on them.

A Buttery Pastry
Sep 4, 2011

Delicious and Informative!
:3:

cheetah7071 posted:

I heard you like maps

This "Tinto Maps" series feels like it more clearly encapsulates the purpose of this weird slow-roll announcement. They clearly lay out what they want feedback on: maps are hard, surely we've made some mistakes, let's fix them together before we actually launch. And if you filter by dev posts, Pavia has four or five times gone "thanks for the suggestion, I've forwarded it to the team". The core game mechanics are much harder to change on a whim according to forums feedback (though they've made at least two changes already that I've noticed), but shifting some borders slightly so that people from all over the world can go "wow! they got my home exactly right!" is the exact kind of thing that outsources well to internet nerds
I'm not sure I really understand the motivation for choosing 20th century coastlines. Like, for sure, choose it as the base map which you then improve on, but I feel like you're missing out on a lot of historical flavor in a place like the Netherlands by not portraying it closer to what it looked like historically. Hell, even if you gently caress up the exact location of a given coastline/body of water, including a string of lakes in Holland would still overall be more accurate than portraying it as land. High(er) accuracy should trump precision.



Obviously there's the issue of things changing during the period the game covers, but then just choose like 17th century coastline as a happy medium. If you only get really good maps somewhere else in the middle of the 19th century, then use those, and don't give a poo poo about temporal inconsistencies across the map.

e: This might become a bigger issue when it comes to land use. The amount of deforestation that happened in Europe during this period is immense, so going with later maps could completely change the balance in a region, depending on how terrain affects things.

A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 06:33 on May 11, 2024

Detheros
Apr 11, 2010

I want to die.



Thanks for deccing on me Britain, I appreciate the free Entire Caribbean.

Jay Rust
Sep 27, 2011

You know, I don’t really get why attacking a colonial nation as a native doesn’t call in the mother nation

oddium
Feb 21, 2006

end of the 4.5 tatami age

because it used to and spain/portugal/france/england were shipping over their entire 150k armies to the new world all the time instead of being a threat in europe

Jay Rust
Sep 27, 2011

It does mean that some guy is telling the king of Spain “a hundred thousand incans are descending on new spain, they aim to conquer and convert all of mexico“ and the king just goes like “yikes well good luck to new spain“

It means that Portugal will defend the Galápagos Islands to the bitter end, but be pretty much ok with an invasion of all of Portuguese Brazil

Pretty funny :D

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

:geno: Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

cheetah7071 posted:

I heard you like maps

This "Tinto Maps" series feels like it more clearly encapsulates the purpose of this weird slow-roll announcement. They clearly lay out what they want feedback on: maps are hard, surely we've made some mistakes, let's fix them together before we actually launch. And if you filter by dev posts, Pavia has four or five times gone "thanks for the suggestion, I've forwarded it to the team". The core game mechanics are much harder to change on a whim according to forums feedback (though they've made at least two changes already that I've noticed), but shifting some borders slightly so that people from all over the world can go "wow! they got my home exactly right!" is the exact kind of thing that outsources well to internet nerds

Very perplexed by the province of Roman Flanders...

TheFlyingLlama
Jan 2, 2013

You really think someone would do that? Just go on the internet and be a llama?



iirc it's usually called "romance flanders" or occasionally "walloon flanders" with earlier english calling it "welch flanders" so roman is a little odd

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man


I have an inca game going that just got to the age of absolutism.

I've been enjoying leaving the colonial nations with just 1-2 provinces so they keep colonizing for me. I think I'm going to invade Europe now.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

:geno: Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

TheFlyingLlama posted:

iirc it's usually called "romance flanders" or occasionally "walloon flanders" with earlier english calling it "welch flanders" so roman is a little odd

Genuinely entertained that Johan refuses to just label the Roman Empire as the Roman Empire, but Flanders can have little a Roman, as a treat.

JosefStalinator
Oct 9, 2007

Come Tbilisi if you want to live.




Grimey Drawer
Stupid Saxon Flanders...

Reveilled
Apr 19, 2007

Take up your rifles
I find that every time I play in Europe these days I end up butting up against the HRE's religion mechanics and desperately wishing they'd been designed differently.

I feel like the empire should start out in religious peace, not having Catholic be the official religion. Then there could be a series of imperial incidents relating to religion that culminate in the leagues being enabled in the age of absolutism, so that the league war actually starts roughly on cue instead of a century early.

Like, it's dumb that if the electors end up majority protestant they literally cannot elect a protestant emperor pre-war even though fear of that the exact thing was one of the primary causes of the Thirty Years War. It's also dumb that protestant victory also forbids reformed emperors and electors unless an incident about it passes, even though, again, one of the sparks that caused the thirty years war was the Calvinist elector palatine attempting to usurp the throne of Bohemia and depose Austria as Emperor.

Hopefully EU5 has a better system!

canepazzo
May 29, 2006



Mughal decision for Deccan seems busted - even with a minus 100 LD from the event, it pops out at 100% liberty desire from its size. I'm Mughals so I am gigantic already having India/Persia/Turkey/Egypt all under my direct control, over half a million soldiers, so it shouldn't have such a high LD. I don't remember ever having issues with LD with Deccan in the past, first time I had them popout disloyal straight away.

I do have another vassal, Somalia, but even combined they are a fraction of my development and army.

Private Speech
Mar 30, 2011

I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.


Reveilled posted:

the Calvinist elector palatine attempting to usurp the throne of Bohemia and depose Austria as Emperor.

To be fair the Bohemians didn't exactly mind, it was less usurpation and more rebellion against the Catholic Austria with him being a convenient choice which led to the war. I don't think there was a realistic prospect of him becoming the Emperor without a war (or that there was a significant distinction between him and the other protestants at the time).

Wiki posted:

Matthias, Holy Roman Emperor died on 20 March 1619. Although his successor, the future Emperor Ferdinand II, had previously been crowned King of Bohemia, the Estates of Bohemia now refused to recognise him as their king. Fearing an invasion by Imperial forces, the Estates sought an alliance with the other members of the Lands of the Bohemian Crown (Silesia, Lusatia, Moravia) and on 31 July 1619 at Prague, these states formed the Bohemian Confederacy, dedicated to opposing the Habsburgs; under the terms of this agreement, Protestantism became virtually the state religion of the Bohemian lands. In August 1619, the general parliament of all the Bohemian lands declared that Ferdinand had forfeited the Bohemian throne. This formally severed all ties between Bohemia and the Habsburgs and made war inevitable. Ferdinand of Bavaria, Archbishop of Cologne predicted this decision would lead to twenty, forty, or sixty years of war.

The preferred candidate of Bohemians as their new king was the Elector of Saxony, but he let it be known he would not accept the throne. This left Frederick as the most senior Protestant prince available, since no one else was willing to risk conflict with the emperor. In August 1619, the chances of Frederick becoming King of Bohemia became greater when Gabriel Bethlen launched an anti-Habsburg revolt in Royal Hungary. This was also precisely the period when Ferdinand was travelling to Frankfurt for his coronation.

Private Speech fucked around with this message at 13:06 on May 13, 2024

Groke
Jul 27, 2007
New Adventures In Mom Strength

Alikchi posted:

Huh. That’ll be enough to get me to buy this dlc (eventually)

Correction: It's not that the Aztecs are re-formable; turns out that if you kill them and replace them you can ADOPT THEIR MISSION TREE without changing your tag. This is weird and broken in awesome ways.

Oh and their government mechanics.

Groke fucked around with this message at 13:39 on May 13, 2024

Reveilled
Apr 19, 2007

Take up your rifles

Private Speech posted:

To be fair the Bohemians didn't exactly mind, it was less usurpation and more rebellion against the Catholic Austria with him being a convenient choice which led to the war. I don't think there was a realistic prospect of him becoming the Emperor without a war (or that there was a significant distinction between him and the other protestants at the time).

Fair on the first part and true on the second, but that only further underscores how weird it is that by default the Lutherans stab any Calvinist allies in the back any time the protestants win the war, and if they are made to go back on that decision the only other possible outcomes are religious peace (letting the catholics back in) or making reformed official (banning Lutheranism).

Do any of the big modpacks do anything with these mechanics to make them fit history a little better (later leagues, possible protestant emperors pre-war)? I tend to play pretty vanilla when I'm not playing Anbennar, but I'm considering trying to mod in some changes myself if there's not already something available.

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man


The thing is that the religious wars in the game chronologically map onto the 16th century wars between the Catholic League and the Schmalkaldic League and the timing of the council of Trent, but then they smoosh some 30yw stuff into it too.

KOGAHAZAN!!
Apr 29, 2013

a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider

Reveilled posted:

Do any of the big modpacks do anything with these mechanics to make them fit history a little better (later leagues, possible protestant emperors pre-war)? I tend to play pretty vanilla when I'm not playing Anbennar, but I'm considering trying to mod in some changes myself if there's not already something available.

Dei Gratia was the big Reformation/30YW rework in the ye olde EU3 days and what's left of it is part of M&T now, IIRC. But there's probably a whole mess of HRE stuff layered on top of it. As well as the regular M&T stuff, of course.

Reveilled
Apr 19, 2007

Take up your rifles

CommonShore posted:

The thing is that the religious wars in the game chronologically map onto the 16th century wars between the Catholic League and the Schmalkaldic League and the timing of the council of Trent, but then they smoosh some 30yw stuff into it too.

To be sure, there were religious conflicts in the HRE that overlap with the period in which the league war happens in game, but its not just a matter of some 30 years war stuff getting smooshed in, the actual mechanics are explicitly intended to model the thirty years war, so it's smooshing the entirety of the 30 years war in.


KOGAHAZAN!! posted:

Dei Gratia was the big Reformation/30YW rework in the ye olde EU3 days and what's left of it is part of M&T now, IIRC. But there's probably a whole mess of HRE stuff layered on top of it. As well as the regular M&T stuff, of course.

Thanks! I'll give it a look, see how they handled it.

If I did make a mod for it myself, I'm thinking the sequence should go something like this:
1. The HRE starts in a state of religious peace. Possibly double the heretic prince IA penalty to compensate since peace halves it.
2. About 10 years after the event "The Reformation Branches Out", if an elector or the emperor is not Catholic, a new imperial incident, The Peace of Augsburg fires. It has three choices:
  • "Enforce the Emperor's Faith" which makes the Emperor's faith the faith of the empire and enables the religious leagues; [So basically current EU4, with the exception that the Emperor can be leading the protestants]
  • "Cuius regio, eius religio" which maintains religious peace, gives members a bonus to missionary strength (which will help protestants more than catholics due to religious zeal and centres of reformation), the emperor can enforce religious unity on converting theocracies under ecclesiastical reservation. [Historical]
  • "Mandate religious freedom" which gives members a significant penalty to missionary strength, reduces relations with all electors who haven't taken humanist or innovative ideas, triggers an event sequence where the pope tries to gather a coalition against you and declare war to enforce catholicism. [Ahistorical, probably for players only unless the emperor has humanist ideas]
3. If the empire has no official faith, set a flag for the emperor's faith at the time of the Peace of Augsburg. If an emperor of another religion is elected, an event fires which enables the religious leagues (because it's clear the balance of power has been upset).
4. After 1600, if the religious leagues have not been enabled, an imperial incident with a MTTH of about 20 years, "Rising Religious Tensions" can fire, halved if the emperor or any elector is a Zealot, again, two choices this time:
  • "Enforce religious unity" makes the Emperor's faith the faith of the empire and enables the religious leagues. [Historical 30 years war]
  • "Curtail the extremists" similar to the Shadow Kingdom incident, this gives the Emperor a timer, 10 years to attempt to defuse the religious tensions--they get a new diplomatic interaction, "enforce religious peace", and must convince 4 electors and any other HRE member above a certain size to agree to the Peace of Augsburg. If they succeed and the peace was "Cuius regio, eius religio" missionary strength bonus is doubled for all members and the heretic prince modifier on Imperial Authority is halved. If the peace was for religious freedom, all members get religious unity bonuses and an even more significant penalty to missionary strength, but the heretic prince modifier on Imperial Authority is removed altogether.

FeculentWizardTits
Aug 31, 2001

It's been a bit since I checked in with this game. Does fighting Spain still mean you also have to invade all its New World colonies if you want any hope of reaching 100% warscore?

Box wine
Apr 6, 2005

ah crap
No, I doubt anyone steps foot in the new world minus aztec and inca runs now.

SurgicalOntologist
Jun 17, 2004

I'm doing a Granada run, and I did the approach of trying to strengthen in Africa rather than trying to knock out Castile and Portugal right away, so I'm fighting them periodically from 1500-1550 (already did it once but started over since my save was corrupted for achievements). New world provinces take like 1% war score so what I'm doing is not bothering to colonize the New World (focusing on Africa) and then in my first few wars with Castile/Portgual, I only took 1-3 provinces in Europe (typically I am limited by aggressive expansion as I've also been expanding in Italy), then 5-15 provinces in the New World. So after a few wars I have quite the colonial empire, without sending any armies or even colonists across the Atlantic.

Although it's true that I don't think you can reach 100% war score without going over there. Except for a mechanism such that if you 100% occupy the main war target, there is a countdown to 100% war score. It's still difficult though because they often have some colonies or provinces that haven't yet formed a colonial nation. I haven't needed to reach 100% but I'm still not strong enough, it's 1530 in my current run and in my last war I still had to peace out earlier than complete domination to preserve manpower (and because I could already take as much as I was comfortable with due to AE).

Edit: my biggest challenge is France, they got a union with Naples after I blew up Aragon, ate 1/4 of Iberia after I weakened Castile, also got lower Britain, most of the low countries, and expanding into Germany. I managed to grab Catalonia and Mallorca in a quick war when they had their armies in England but they're going to be a challenging end boss to get the Rereconquista.

SurgicalOntologist fucked around with this message at 16:39 on May 14, 2024

AAAAA! Real Muenster
Jul 12, 2008

My QB is also named Bort

With a big enough colonial empire you'll be richer than god so you'll probably fine in the long run.

Jay Rust
Sep 27, 2011

In my inca game i've started invading north africa and now i'm just thinking, i don't want any of this land really, the trade flows the wrong way and everyone hates me

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk
College Slice
you can't let that stop you from conquering

Kurgarra Queen
Jun 11, 2008

GIVE ME MORE
SUPER BOWL
WINS

cheetah7071 posted:

you can't let that stop you from conquering
Indeed, it sounds like a problem to be solved by conquering more land, not less!

gurragadon
Jul 28, 2006

All EU5 really needed for me was trade flow being dynamic. Even modeled with a penalty for going against trade winds or w/e.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk
College Slice
The new Hungary is probably the fastest I've ever become unstoppable. By 1470 I had Poland, Lithuania, Burgundy, and Bohemia, and by 1500 added Austria and Naples. The mission tree gives subjugation CBs on all electors, which I used to grab the ones with >100% war score. At that point eating Germany with a giant co-co-co-belligerent chain wasn't even particularly hard, I had enough subjects to avoid unmanageable overextension, and even with 300 AE the coalition was too scared to actually form, which really surprised me. I did have enough AE mods that England, Portugal, the Ottomans, and the Mamluks weren't eligible to join but I really expected a coalition headed by France and Spain to form along with the Italians. Even in my world conquest I never really felt this strong relative to the big European powers; they happily coalitioned me in that run even as I held all of Asia. But Hungary holding central and eastern Europe is too scary I guess.

Roadie
Jun 30, 2013

Groke posted:

Correction: It's not that the Aztecs are re-formable; turns out that if you kill them and replace them you can ADOPT THEIR MISSION TREE without changing your tag. This is weird and broken in awesome ways.

Oh and their government mechanics.

What are the conditions for that? Is it a decision on adopting Aztec culture and controlling provinces, or what?

Edit: Oh, here it is. You do have to be Nahuatl and have a capital in Central America or Mexico, but that's about it.

I wonder what the most shenanigans results will be from this...

Roadie fucked around with this message at 23:01 on May 14, 2024

Groke
Jul 27, 2007
New Adventures In Mom Strength

Roadie posted:

What are the conditions for that? Is it a decision on adopting Aztec culture and controlling provinces, or what?

Edit: Oh, here it is. You do have to be Nahuatl and have a capital in Central America or Mexico, but that's about it.

I wonder what the most shenanigans results will be from this...

Also, just verified this as working via console: If you adopt the Aztec mission tree, and then form a tag with its own mission tree, you keep BOTH.

Possible new Three Mountains cheese:

Bugger off to the New World ASAP, kill Mexico, flip Nahuatl, take the missions. Eat all the colonies, etc. Maybe flip Hindu at some point for the CCR etc. -- as a New World pagan tag you can do this by decision if you own a single Hindu province, yes? Maybe take the Mandate of Heaven, since you are pagan. Then establish Sunset Colonies everywhere and feed most of the old world to them.

Optionally, form Japan in the sequence somewhere (yes you DO get the whole Japan mission tree AND the Mandate missions while still keeping all the Aztec ones); unless they've fixed it since 1.36 Japan also has a mission that lets you take the Mandate mid-war regardless of your religion and at no war score cost (all you have to do is destroy Korea first which shouldn't be much of a problem if you own the New World) so you can go Hindu first instead of waiting. Although this would necessitate a true one-tag so no sunset colonies. If you want to be completely ridiculous, form Alaska before Japan and keep Alaskan ideas (Hindu Alaska EoC with Admin ideas would get like 85% CCR).

Reveilled
Apr 19, 2007

Take up your rifles

Groke posted:

Also, just verified this as working via console: If you adopt the Aztec mission tree, and then form a tag with its own mission tree, you keep BOTH.

Possible new Three Mountains cheese:

Bugger off to the New World ASAP, kill Mexico, flip Nahuatl, take the missions. Eat all the colonies, etc. Maybe flip Hindu at some point for the CCR etc. -- as a New World pagan tag you can do this by decision if you own a single Hindu province, yes? Maybe take the Mandate of Heaven, since you are pagan. Then establish Sunset Colonies everywhere and feed most of the old world to them.

Optionally, form Japan in the sequence somewhere (yes you DO get the whole Japan mission tree AND the Mandate missions while still keeping all the Aztec ones); unless they've fixed it since 1.36 Japan also has a mission that lets you take the Mandate mid-war regardless of your religion and at no war score cost (all you have to do is destroy Korea first which shouldn't be much of a problem if you own the New World) so you can go Hindu first instead of waiting. Although this would necessitate a true one-tag so no sunset colonies. If you want to be completely ridiculous, form Alaska before Japan and keep Alaskan ideas (Hindu Alaska EoC with Admin ideas would get like 85% CCR).

Is there a reason to flip Hindu as opposed to Mayan? IIRC Mayan gets 20% CCR while Hindu only gets 10%.

Groke
Jul 27, 2007
New Adventures In Mom Strength

Reveilled posted:

Is there a reason to flip Hindu as opposed to Mayan? IIRC Mayan gets 20% CCR while Hindu only gets 10%.

It's way easier to do in most situations. And you actually do get 20% with the upgraded monument, as well as a hefty lower autonomy in territories from another monument. If you are for example going for a Hindu EOC or Hindu Mughals strategy, then both of those monuments are either in your early expansion path, or quite close to it, anyway. And with the rest of the Hindu monuments you get a bunch more nice bonuses as well.

Reveilled
Apr 19, 2007

Take up your rifles

Groke posted:

It's way easier to do in most situations. And you actually do get 20% with the upgraded monument, as well as a hefty lower autonomy in territories from another monument. If you are for example going for a Hindu EOC or Hindu Mughals strategy, then both of those monuments are either in your early expansion path, or quite close to it, anyway. And with the rest of the Hindu monuments you get a bunch more nice bonuses as well.

Fair point, forgot about the Harmandir Sahib's authority effect. Though I was meaning more in the specific situation of "a three mountains run where you bugger off to the New World ASAP", going Mayan is pretty easy to do there.

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Sybot
Nov 8, 2009
Tinto Talks #12

Rather than adding a bunch of hardcoded systems for all the different kinds of ways nations interact outside of standard diplomacy, they have added the concept of 'International Organisations' , a highly flexible and moddable generic system. This covers everything from quasi-nations like the HRE and Shogunate, to religious organisations like the Catholic Church, to tributary networks, to temporary organisations like coalitions.

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