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Briefly in regards to lead: the industry in general is moving towards lead-free primers and recommends the use of TMJ/CMJ rounds (total metal jacket) or polymer/powder coated rounds for indoor ranges. For the former the bullet is completely encapsulated in a (generally) copper jacket (as opposed to FMJ which leaves the base exposed), for the later it's completely coated in a plastic coating. As for shotgun shells lead shot was banned for the hunting of waterfowl in '91. The most common shot now is steel. also richochets can and do transfer back to the shooter depending on the angle. Annapolis PD had to replace their range a couple of years back because the design directed shots back to the firing line, which wasn't helped by 15 years worth of bullets in the backstop Party Plane Jones fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Jul 25, 2018 |
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Jul 25, 2018 01:15
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I like how you conveniently forget that there are shotguns out there too. Grab your shotgun, load up steel birdshot and have a go at a rock, preferably at dusk. Don't forget to bring safety goggles as there will be sparks and steel pellets going everywhere. Yes, shooting at the ground is a thing during rabbit hunt, outside the gun range. There might be hard surfaces at the range too. Also lol if you think it's the shooter that is going to suffer from the ricochets. In general though, it is a really non issue with lead ammunition outside birdshot in wetlands, areas where lead is already banned. It is especially a non issue on a range where an excavator can scrape off and replace the berm every now and then. Do you have an aneurysm too when you see a car enthusiast use lead counterweights in car tires? Or is it because the lead in this particurlar case hails from the ever dreaded gun you're having a hissy fit?
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Jul 25, 2018 01:30
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Party Plane Jones posted:Briefly in regards to lead: the industry in general is moving towards lead-free primers and recommends the use of TMJ/CMJ rounds (total metal jacket) or polymer/powder coated rounds for indoor ranges. For the former the bullet is completely encapsulated in a (generally) copper jacket (as opposed to FMJ which leaves the base exposed), for the later it's completely coated in a plastic coating. Yes, the industry (including ranges as stated) is largely moving away from lead and other countries have successfully banned or limited its use to scenarios that are not being discussed in this thread. This is why it is entirely fascinating to watch a "reasonable gun owner" need to cling to its use and deliberately exaggerate, if not completely fabricate, the impact of using an alternative. quote:Grab your shotgun, load up steel birdshot and have a go at a rock, preferably at dusk. Don't forget to bring safety goggles as there will be sparks and steel pellets going everywhere. Yes, shooting at the ground is a thing during rabbit hunt, outside the gun range. Steel shot from a shotgun blast ricocheting off a natural "rock" at any distance over 15m or so shot at a low angle trajectory as done in rabbit hunting would only return in the direction of the firer in extremely rare circumstances and would likely do so with so little forces as to barely pierce proper brush attire. The pepper from this shot outside of a direct cone of fire would cause minimal injury unless the shooter basically broke all rules of hunter safety and etiquette, and at that point we might as we start "what if'ing" and planning laws around Dick Cheney blasting people in the chest. Also LOL at "WHEN DOING DUMB THING WEAR SAFETY GOGGLES" as if you shouldn't be doing that already when hunting with shotguns you loving idiot. Reasonable gun owner: Safety equipment is for chumps. The reason I don't respond to your ridiculous strawman and ad hom attacks, and why this is seriously funny to me, is because my family raises squirrel, deer, and rabbit hunting dogs. I have spent nearly 40 years of my life hunting. I have a significant number of family members who draft wildlife management and conservation policy, co-run large hunting collectives owning significant wildlife refuge or hunting acreage, run state/federal wildlife/game programs, etc. etc. And their biggest pain in the rear end are people like you who will fabricate reasons why they should be allowed to do anything they want with whatever they want however they want based on myths and exaggerations.
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Jul 25, 2018 02:37
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QuarkJets posted:It was an answer to the question being asked, not the question that you just made up. Maybe go back and re-read both posts but next time don't huff a bunch of glue beforehand. Here let me help: The answer clearly dodge the spirit of the question, which, and correct me if I'm wrong Noshtane, was to prompt Vitalsigns to share a specific vision of what he wants a gun control system to look like. In my post you are misreading the intent behind the word fantasy, the "fantasy" here is that he could create any kind of regulatory framework he want, which presumably would be something "reasonable." Instead he basically just responded idk, stricter I guess? and gave the last country mentioned as an example. To be fair, I think Swedish style regulation would be pretty good for the US too. I want to see people itt think a little bit beyond vague call to action. Sometimes I feel like gun control advocates in America are flailing blindly in the night, with no idea where they're going or how to get their. There's a serious lack of vision. The result is effort spent on systematically poor policy subject to constitutional challenges and low potential to substantially reduce homicides, injuries, and suicides. If Noshtane is right and legal gun owners are not contributing substantially to the rate of violent deaths in Sweden, then I would agree with him that his country should not further restrict guns. Some people here seem to literally believe its impossible to change anyone's mind on the issue. I might suggest those people take the time to look at the trend of opinion polls on the issue, because it doesn't support that belief. Some people think that there can be no common ground, and liberal Democrats will ultimately just be able to force the issue and have their way. Well I admire your faith, but faith I'm afraid its misplaced. American's opinion on gun control is about where it was in the early 1990s. Just having a lot of support isn't enough. There has to be a real plan, and that will probably require compromising somewhere on something. This is not an issue to get dogmatic about, because any little bit of progress we can make will save lives. There's no time to waste, because before we know it this moment may pass and not come again for another generation.
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Jul 25, 2018 03:35
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Squalid posted:The answer clearly dodge the spirit of the question, which, and correct me if I'm wrong Noshtane, was to prompt Vitalsigns to share a specific vision of what he wants a gun control system to look like. Vitalsigns gave a vague answer and also a very specific answer: VitalSigns posted:I'd trade America's for pretty much any other OECD country's gun laws. Sweden's for example. I don't care about your interpretation of my interpretation of the word "fantasy", I'm just pointing out that VitalSigns answered the question in a completely satisfactory way.
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Jul 25, 2018 05:40
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Squalid posted:I want to see people itt think a little bit beyond vague call to action. Sometimes I feel like gun control advocates in America are flailing blindly in the night, with no idea where they're going or how to get their. There's a serious lack of vision. The result is effort spent on systematically poor policy subject to constitutional challenges and low potential to substantially reduce homicides, injuries, and suicides. If Noshtane is right and legal gun owners are not contributing substantially to the rate of violent deaths in Sweden, then I would agree with him that his country should not further restrict guns. I love that nobody reads the thread and we just rehash the same arguments in an endless Groundhog Day cycle.
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Jul 25, 2018 06:30
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Swedish guns kill people too, just not in Sweden. Reminder that Sweden is also an important arms exporter. They really should ban guns, all guns.
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Jul 25, 2018 06:45
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Party Plane Jones posted:hi please stop posting in this thread if all you're going to do is threadshit 24/7; even vitalsigns puts more effort into posts than you do You're not making sense. The only people "threadshitting " are the people who demand no changes ever. Do you really believe that the fact that noone can be trusted with guns is a joke? This whole topic is deadly, so decrying the blunt statements that must be made to cut through propaganda is downright a dangerous habit. The concept of mass gun culture and ownership is intrinsically backwards and anti-life. Its proponents must be spoken too without lousy "centrist" buffers. That simple, the blood is already on so many hands. I can only thank God that my home state managed to avoid any school shooting events since 1990 as other states see theirs rise and rise.
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Jul 25, 2018 06:48
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archangelwar posted:
I have seen dogs injured by ricocheting steel shot, going out almost 90° from a pile of broken boulders. No the injuries where not very serious but they did not strike the eyes so it could very well be worse had luck not been with them. And if you thought I was serious when I suggest you'd shoot a rock, lol right back at you. My point is that it's a well known fact that steel ricochets in a way lead don't. As for strawmen, I see that they are in no short supply from your part, not once has I suggested that one should be able to do anything they want with whatever they want, that is just a figment of your imagination. I have suggested that lead is a perfectly good metal in bullets and that shooting done in a range is to prefer to shooting out in the wild as backstop minimizes metal in nature. If you disagree with any of those two points, please bring arguments and leave the strawmen at home.
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Jul 25, 2018 12:38
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Noshtane posted:I have suggested that lead is a perfectly good metal in bullets and that shooting done in a range is to prefer to shooting out in the wild as backstop minimizes metal in nature. I don't "disagree" they are just irrelevant, as statistic do not bear out a relevant increased danger due to steel shot ricochet in the real world (just your fevered imagination) and backstops exist at ranges regardless of metal used. These are not arguments, they are distractions. Red herrings. They are incantations you chant for your magic totem. Edit: You seriously sound like the worst hunter with the worst hunter safety I have ever heard. No wonder you fixate on the infinitesimally small differences between steel and lead shot for game hunting, you are the type of hunter that will shoot his friend's face off because he had the audacity to stand in a place near something you want to destroy. Edit 2: lol, I can hear you now "Hey boys, the dogs rustled up a rabbit, time to shoot at the whole mess of em!!! Let God sort it out!" archangelwar fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Jul 25, 2018 |
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Jul 25, 2018 15:15
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archangelwar posted:I don't "disagree" they are just irrelevant, as statistic do not bear out a relevant increased danger due to steel shot ricochet in the real world (just your fevered imagination) and backstops exist at ranges regardless of metal used. These are not arguments, they are distractions. Red herrings. They are incantations you chant for your magic totem. Again with the jumping to conclusions, attacks on person and strawmen. Is a civil debate so far beyond you? Why do you always assume that it is I who do the irresponsible stuff you accuse hunters of doing? Never did I say I shot the dogs, but I have been hunting a lot with lots of different people and have seen things happen. Reducing risk is alpha and omega when hunting as you should know. If you ever feel that you can take an avoidable risk with weapons or ammunition when going hunting, please do us all a favor and stay home. Lead shot reduces the ricochet risk and not by an insignificant amount. The fact that you so vehemently deny the risk of ricochets with steel shot and appears to assume that steel is functionally identical makes me doubt that you have hunted as much as you claim, anyone who have used both can tell that there is a difference in range and risk for ricochets. Also if you assume that it is easy to always have a line of sight free from rocks, I'd invite you to a grouse hunt in the Swedish mountains above the treelines. You'd time and time again come on situations where you'd either fire into rocks or abstain from shooting. Or you use soft shot because it eliminates any potential risk. There are of course bismuth alloy shots but they literally cost 10x the compared to lead so it's a hard sell for many hunters, especially since lead does the job just fine as long as you stay away from lakes and wetlands.
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Jul 25, 2018 16:43
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So we need to have lead shot at target-shooting ranges to...protect...the dogs??? Which are there because ????
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Jul 25, 2018 16:47
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Ain't no rule says a dog can't shoot in a range.
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Jul 25, 2018 16:53
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VitalSigns posted:So we need to have lead shot at target-shooting ranges to...protect...the dogs??? Which are there because ???? A fun fact is that Sweden has banned lead shot on skeet ranges but not in hunting outside of wetlands. They allow lead in hunting because it reduces risk for dogs, hunters and the forest industry. On the ranges they assume it's easy enough to clear stones from the skeet range. Lead is still allowed in shotgun slugs and rifle bullets both in hunting and range shooting. edit: As for why they banned lead shot on the range, I heard it's because it would lead to high cost in clean up as most of the shot is spread over a large area and not collected in the backstop. Also since many ranges are closet to populated areas, it's prudent to not spread pellets of lead all over the place. Noshtane fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Jul 25, 2018 |
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Jul 25, 2018 17:06
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Noshtane posted:They allow lead in hunting because it reduces risk for dogs, hunters I like how you keep grasping at straws and drafting new incantations like "think of the dogs!!!" You still have not demonstrated a statistically relevant correlation between hunting injuries while rabbit hunting with steel vs. lead shot nor have you addressed the fact that there are fundamental differences between injecting steel and lead into the ground (or into your food). Reasonable gun owner: "Steel introduces an infinitesimally small risk of richochet more than lead in these incredibly contrived circumstances therefore lead should be legal without consideration for any other factor"
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Jul 25, 2018 18:03
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"Eat lead motherfucker!!" sounds a hell of a lot better than "Eat steel motherfucker!!" and I'm pretty sure all gunfuckers have the exact same fantasy of dropping those three words as they prepare to unload on a home invader
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Jul 25, 2018 18:18
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No one should care about weird edge cases involving gun control in Sweden. Including people that live there.
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Jul 25, 2018 18:20
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archangelwar posted:there are fundamental differences between injecting steel and lead into the ground (or into your food). Tbf the argument probably makes more sense if you prime your brain first by eating enough lead-tainted meat.
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Jul 25, 2018 18:23
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Gun safety is very important to me *shoots at a rock for fun*
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Jul 25, 2018 18:37
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archangelwar posted:I like how you keep grasping at straws and drafting new incantations like "think of the dogs!!!" You still have not demonstrated a statistically relevant correlation between hunting injuries while rabbit hunting with steel vs. lead shot nor have you addressed the fact that there are fundamental differences between injecting steel and lead into the ground (or into your food). As far as I know this research you ask for, Steel vs. Lead injuries, does not exist. The lack of research does not mean that all is cool though and the concerns of hunters who have experienced incidents should not be dismissed out of hand. But fore real; sean10mm posted:No one should care about weird edge cases involving gun control in Sweden. Including people that live there. This is correct, Swedish guns are not that much of a problem to begin with and lead vs steel is a loving non issue, from the US to Japan it is one of the least issues regarding guns. Of the myriad of serious issues that the US has with guns, issues that kills multiple people a day, it is astounding that the gunchat got derailed by the use of lead shot in the Swedish mountains and gun ranges. If we need to debate it further, would it not be better to take it to TFR? Here's a D&D question that's been bugging me for a bit; why did the left abandon the guns? I've spoken to a few of really old guard communists, they where of the opinion that the workers should arm themselves as the government, police and military will all happily use guns brutalize the workers to the benefit of the capital elite. Prominent communists and socialists such as George Orwell, Marx and Mao where also of the opinion that guns in the hands of the proletariat was a good thing as far as I know. When and why did the change happen.
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Jul 25, 2018 19:06
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Ograbme posted:Gun safety is very important to me *shoots at a rock for fun* No, remember there is a rabbit and a pack of dogs between you and the large, sheer, igneous, ferrous/mineral boulder (which are extremely common and unavoidable in the grassy rabbit hunting volcano fields) less than 15m away. It isn't "for fun" don't you dare tell me what to do with MAH FREEDOMS.
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Jul 25, 2018 19:10
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Noshtane posted:As far as I know this research you ask for, Steel vs. Lead injuries, does not exist. The lack of research does not mean that all is cool though and the concerns of hunters who have experienced incidents should not be dismissed out of hand. Reasonable gun owner: "Don't you dare draft legislation without considering my plethora of anecdotal evidence that I am sure exists somewhere if someone were to look hard enough given an infinite timeline and infinite monkeys with infinite typewriters!"
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Jul 25, 2018 19:12
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Noshtane posted:Here's a D&D question that's been bugging me for a bit; why did the left abandon the guns? I've spoken to a few of really old guard communists, they where of the opinion that the workers should arm themselves as the government, police and military will all happily use guns brutalize the workers to the benefit of the capital elite. Prominent communists and socialists such as George Orwell, Marx and Mao where also of the opinion that guns in the hands of the proletariat was a good thing as far as I know. When and why did the change happen. two points: A: there is a difference between revolutionary communism and democratic socialism. marx wanted the proletariat to violently overthrow the existing powers, he didn't advocate for gun ownership for self-defense. obviously if your goal is an actual revolution, you need weapons. democratic socialists want to work through the system, through votes and campaigning, hence the "democratic" part. there is no need to arm the global proletariat if you expect salvation to arrive through the ballot box. B: when marx was writing about guns, the balance of powers between the state and the proletariat was vastly more even. nowadays, communication is easily spied on, you can't fight drones with your hunting rifle, and even ordinary police in the US have enough military equipment to overthrow a small country. violent revolution and the overthrow of the bourgeoisie simply isn't a feasible option anymore. if you want coherent leftist arguments for gun ownership, you'd need to turn to, e.g., the black panthers, not current-day revolutionary marxists. arming black people is something we could have an actual discussion about. "the proletariat will rise"... isn't.
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Jul 25, 2018 19:13
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archangelwar posted:Reasonable gun owner: "Don't you dare draft legislation without considering my plethora of anecdotal evidence that I am sure exists somewhere if someone were to look hard enough given an infinite timeline and infinite monkeys with infinite typewriters!" Okay, I will try to find what research there is, happy?
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Jul 25, 2018 19:14
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So, what's the going nominal over/under on weeks before the NRA is implicated in specific criminal activity or activities in relation to comforting hostile foreign interests?
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Jul 25, 2018 19:18
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The idea that US communists (highest popular vote total in 2016: The Party of Socialism and Liberation. Popular vote: 74,405 or .05%) has the numbers to win a civil war and overthrow the US government is delusional.
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Jul 25, 2018 19:24
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botany posted:two points: As for violent revolution in contrast to the ballot box, an argument I've heard from the old communists was that the gun in the hand of the people was necessary to defend the democracy itself as they believed that the capitalists would use force sooner than accept the result of a socialism elected through democracy and the argument is not entirely without merit, looking especially at historical events in South America. If things would have improved should the populace have been armed in Chile or Argentina when things went to poo poo, maybe not, but that was the argument of a 70 year old marxist at least. Another argument as for the need of guns among the worker is just that the capitalists would need tanks and planes to suppress the people. Unarmed people can be controlled by uniformed police in the day and masked hoodlums disappearing people in the nights. It essentially boils down to, would you prefer to live under the boot of the fascist or in a hellish civil war should the worst come to happen. Black Panthers I need to read up on, don't know much about them but I feel that it's something I ought to know more about. Any tip on where to start?
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Jul 25, 2018 19:29
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Seventy four thousand people, even Americans, is a large enough throng to storm the White House, probably also the Capitol. But the bourgeoisie has been extremely successful in instilling into the people a very strong aversion to violence as a means of political participation, so...
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Jul 25, 2018 19:29
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VitalSigns posted:The idea that US communists (highest popular vote total in 2016: The Party of Socialism and Liberation. Popular vote: 74,405 or .05%) has the numbers to win a civil war and overthrow the US government is delusional. Depending on what branch of communism you adhere to, the party is there to guide the people when the masses begin to stir, not in itself act as an army that will overthrow the people. Looking at the US right now, the people are stirring sort of, which is exactly when the communist party should rise to form this unconscious struggle into a targeted revolution. This is what the old progg music taught me at least
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Jul 25, 2018 19:36
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What kind of metal-tipped lawn dart is safest for my kids?
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Jul 25, 2018 19:41
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Seventy four thousand people, even Americans, is a large enough throng to storm the White House, probably also the Capitol. You need to be able to hold more than that to win a civil war. Noshtane posted:As for violent revolution in contrast to the ballot box, an argument I've heard from the old communists was that the gun in the hand of the people was necessary to defend the democracy itself as they believed that the capitalists would use force sooner than accept the result of a socialism elected through democracy and the argument is not entirely without merit, looking especially at historical events in South America. If things would have improved should the populace have been armed in Chile or Argentina when things went to poo poo, maybe not, but that was the argument of a 70 year old marxist at least. Probably but in that case you need to military to change sides, see Syria(or Francoist Spain) for what happens when the military decides to back the dictator. South America isn't a good analogy to the US because there's no hyperpower to fund a military coup of the US, like the US was there to do in South America. In any case, even the glorious people's revolution of workers and peasants and office drones will still need to have some standards for who is allowed to have weapons (unless you think arming serial killers is a grand idea). And even if you were depending 100% on the people without any military support, your tacticlol small arms collection isn't going to do it, you'd want to stockpile explosives, RPGs, etc do you support private ownership of those without restriction?
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Jul 25, 2018 19:43
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Ograbme posted:What kind of metal-tipped lawn dart is safest for my kids? As long as you give them the darts when they are young enough, then it should be lead. Lead is more toxic than steel and thus the babies will grow up physically unable to lob the darts at each others' skull. Because we are only concerned about ricochets in this analysis, it is therefore immaterial to consider whether 2 living vegetables is a preferable outcome to 1 dead healthy child.
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Jul 25, 2018 20:10
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VitalSigns posted:Probably but in that case you need to military to change sides, see Syria(or Francoist Spain) for what happens when the military decides to back the dictator. The army is supposed to be made up of the people is it not? It has always been a thing within many forms of communism that the sons of the proletariat should join the military or complete conscription to their best effort as to increase the ability of the proletariat to fight back come the revolution. What I didn't understand is when the change happened, from "arm the populace", a thing still going strong in the 60s, well after the advent of social democracy, to "only the police(i.e the bludgeon of the capitalists against the workers) should have guns". Whom should be able to own what can be debated but here in Sweden during the cold war, it was envisioned that the common hunting rifle would be most effective guerrilla weapon come the Soviet occupation and as such the government made efforts to get more rifles into the hands of people through permissive laws and national shooting competitions and the like. It is worth noting though Sweden had universal conscription at the time so every man had gone through training in the use of arms. Now I know that there is literally no scenario that has even a remote possibility that would end up with the US under foreign occupation but I'm sad to say that the same regarding the US becoming increasingly repressive towards minorities, socialists, poor and other "undesirables". At the same time we have seen armed nutjobs face off with armed police and occupy federal bulding and getting away with it. Why wouldn't the same be possible for armed socialists?
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Jul 25, 2018 20:19
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disarm all cops E: if the US government becomes even more oppressive to minorities they're doing it with popular support so the idea a civil war would succeed against the military and the majority of the fash-supporting population is silly
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Jul 25, 2018 20:20
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Noshtane posted:The army is supposed to be made up of the people is it not? It has always been a thing within many forms of communism that the sons of the proletariat should join the military or complete conscription to their best effort as to increase the ability of the proletariat to fight back come the revolution. the majority of gun owners in the US would fight on the side of the fascists, not against them. and again, your hunting rifle doesn't do poo poo against drones or even against your average SWAT team APC
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Jul 25, 2018 20:23
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How well did hunting rifles work for...hm idk... let's say Poland or Hungary or Czechoslovakia or Latvia or...
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Jul 25, 2018 20:34
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VitalSigns posted:How well did hunting rifles work for...hm idk... let's say Poland or Hungary or Czechoslovakia or Latvia or... I do like the stories about how guns would have helped oppressed populations like German Jews, but confiscation laws were passed that made them helpless. Guns, can't stop an oppressive power from taking your gun away, but can definitely stop them from outright killing you or help you wage a successful civil war against the full military might of a nation.
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Jul 25, 2018 20:57
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Their neighbors who were turning them in left and right in order to steal their homes and businesses were just waiting for a Good Jew With A Gun to kick off the revolution against Hitler so they could join in, too bad the Jews had given up their arms or everything would have been different...
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Jul 25, 2018 21:06
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:Lol no it doesn't haha. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQksl83azfY 
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Jul 25, 2018 21:24
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Noshtane posted:Here's a D&D question that's been bugging me for a bit; why did the left abandon the guns? limiting it to the US, the urbanization of the liberal left and the radicalization of right-leaning gun rights groups, combined with systemic persecution of radical left militant minority political groups the 60s-70s wave of political assassinations of left-leaning political figures in the US probably didn't help either
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Jul 25, 2018 21:50
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