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Amused to Death posted:Al Jazeera is reporting the army says it plans to suspend the constitution, dissolve parliament and call for fresh elections if the situation isn't resolved(spoiler: it won't be). Tomorrow should be interesting. I'm not really sure if this whole "mobs and/or the military should be allowed to overthrow democratically leaders" thing is a precedent that a freshly democratic country should be setting...
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Jul 2, 2013 20:48
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Dr. Tough posted:I'm not really sure if this whole "mobs and/or the military should be allowed to overthrow democratically leaders" thing is a precedent that a freshly democratic country should be setting... The military thing is concerning, but I'm all for mobs overthrowing incompetent / dishonest rulers and holding new elections whenever they want. It's probably a more meaningful expression of popular will than ticking a square on a piece of paper. It's their right to dissolve the social contract the moment it's not working. Why should they suffer for three more years, just for the sake of "process"? Especially when there's not even a formal, stable democracy established yet. OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 20:51
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Dr. Tough posted:I'm not really sure if this whole "mobs and/or the military should be allowed to overthrow democratically leaders" thing is a precedent that a freshly democratic country should be setting... At least they're leading it straight into new elections than a direct military junta. They need to develop a tradition of democracy, true, but I think it could be argued that the Muslim Brotherhood's autocratic and opaque model of rulership was strangling democracy in the crib. edit: And as Owlbot said, the military only did this after even bigger protests than the original revolution. They couldn't reasonably claim this as precedent if they simply acted on their own.
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Jul 2, 2013 20:51
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Dr. Tough posted:I'm not really sure if this whole "mobs and/or the military should be allowed to overthrow democratically leaders" thing is a precedent that a freshly democratic country should be setting... Most revolutionary movements go through a couple of governments before they settle down. Lacking someone like George Washington who has credibility with both the people and the military they tend to be pretty unstable for the first five years.
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Jul 2, 2013 20:57
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OwlBot 2000 posted:The military thing is concerning, but I'm all for mobs overthrowing incompetent / dishonest rulers and holding new elections whenever they want. It's probably a more meaningful expression of popular will than ticking a square on a piece of paper. It's their right to dissolve the social contract the moment it's not working. Why should they suffer for three more years, just for the sake of "process"? Especially when there's not even a formal, stable democracy established yet. Mob rule has an awful tendency to lead to anarchy or dictatorship. See: 1st century BC Rome. Letting the military overthrow people is just going to lead to straight up caesarism.
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Jul 2, 2013 21:01
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Dr. Tough posted:Mob rule has an awful tendency to lead to anarchy or dictatorship. See: 1st century BC Rome. Letting the military overthrow people is just going to lead to straight up caesarism. There's some alternative interpretations of that, wherein Caesar actually was supportive of the people rather than just the patricians and made things better for the masses which (in theory) ultimately led to his assassination. In other words, "Caesarism" that serves the needs of the people is better than fake "democracy" which merely pretends to represent the people. Genuine democracy is better than "Caesarism", of course, but that takes time and revolutions aren't always perfect the first time around. OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 21:06
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Squalid posted:Maybe you should reevaluate what you believe. I mean there are plenty of Imams floating around who advocate terrible attitudes towards women but there are also plenty of christian preachers doing the same. Without serious cross cultural studies of muslim communities around the world I just don't believe you can make any strong claims regarding specifically Islamic attitudes towards women. This is my point though, it's not Islam specifically, it's how certain regions decide to interpret Islam. I mean take Indonesia, world's largest Muslim nation, their sexist problems don't seem really any different than all of east Asia.(Patriarchal as hell, but not to the same institutional extent as some places in the mid-east). It's just in some countries to different extremes conservative culture that already exists just uses Islam as a way to rationalize their opinions, and those ideas seem to hold more social sway than they do in other places, like as you mentioned Albania, and numerous other Muslim nations as well. I mean yeah we have shithead preachers here as well, it's just they lack the devoted following or legal clout to get people devoted enough to say blow up a bus of women from a women's university or ban women from 70 university majors because women were becoming the majority of graduates and preachers though that was against divine social norms. e: I mean, if the middle east was reversed, and just Israel was Muslim while most of the area was Jewish with a whole lot of ultra-Orthdox Jews being present in some countries, there's a decent chance we'd be having this same conversation with Judaism replacing Islam. But as the poster below says, you can't just create a clean divide between religion and culture. Dr. Tough posted:Mob rule has an awful tendency to lead to anarchy or dictatorship. See: 1st century BC Rome. Letting the military overthrow people is just going to lead to straight up caesarism. Perhaps, it's a real possibility, but we'll have to see how the military plays this out.(Although some would argue the Egpytian military already has its own version of deep state going on in the background though regardless of whether the nation is democratic or not) Amused to Death fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 21:08
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Look, I'm honestly not that hopeful for Egypt's immediate future. I think that they're either going to end up with a civil war and/or a new dictator.
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Jul 2, 2013 21:12
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Squalid posted:Fine. Cool. I'll believe it. Just show me the evidence. Something. Anything. just stop posting your horrible common sense bullshit. All I hear right now is opinions, assumptions and unsupported assertions. Don't have any? Maybe you should reevaluate what you believe. I mean there are plenty of Imams floating around who advocate terrible attitudes towards women but there are also plenty of christian preachers doing the same. Without serious cross cultural studies of muslim communities around the world I just don't believe you can make any strong claims regarding specifically Islamic attitudes towards women. I mean Albania is overwhelmingly Muslim but that hasn't stopped Albanians from permitting the existence of a traditional class of transexuals. The overwhelming focus on arab society in any discussion of Islam doesn't help. The sharp distinction that is being made between 'culture' and 'religion' doesn't make much sense. A nation's culture and the worldview of its inhabitants are at least partly shaped by its traditional religious beliefs, even if it's currently a secular society - the same way Protestantism left its mark on modern Scandinavia. No, Islam doesn't directly lead to misogyny for the simple reason that it doesn't have an independent existence as an ultimate cause or as a monolithic concept, it is something that exists only in specific societies and in specific people's heads as a collection of rituals, attitudes and beliefs. Different societies will interpret and adapt it in different ways, which is why there's such a huge difference between Albania and Afghanistan. You're right that it's a multi-dimensional phenomenon. At the same time, the form that Islam does take in much of the muslim world definitely shows a pronounced misogynistic streak, and particularly among devout muslims. To return to your example, if Albania is relatively liberal by muslim standards, it's because it's a mostly secular society where religion isn't seen as particularly important to begin with. Taking all of this into consideration, I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing that there's a correlation between misogyny and the intensity of people's Islamic beliefs.
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Jul 2, 2013 21:12
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It's not conservative muslims roaming the streets sexually harassing women so you two are going to have to find some other angle to attack in your argument. If everyone in Cairo had walked around with an "intensity" of religion it would be a safer place for women. You're lost.
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Jul 2, 2013 21:32
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Svartvit posted:It's not conservative muslims roaming the streets sexually harassing women so you two are going to have to find some other angle to attack in your argument. If everyone in Cairo had walked around with an "intensity" of religion it would be a safer place for women. You're lost. This is what I posted on the previous page: Phlegmish posted:All of this certainly plays a role, but the basic reality seems to me that the men who commit these acts just have poor impulse control, lack basic empathy and know that they can get away with it. Everything else is mostly just an a-posteriori excuse. People were reporting on the prevalence of sexual harassment in Egypt before the revolution, and much of it involved women wearing the hijab who weren't really 'transgressing' any norms other than leaving their homes. So yes, I agree. However: 1) Those conservative muslims are the ones ideologically justifying and excusing this behavior. 2) As I stated before, religion has an indirect effect on a nation's culture and influences its people regardless of whether or not they still believe. It's the same way that the West has been deeply and permanently influenced by Christian theology. Again, this discussion is going nowhere because it's impossible and pointless to completely disentangle culture and religion.
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Jul 2, 2013 21:43
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Crosspost from the pictures thread. What it looks like to be in the helicopter near Tahrir Square that's getting tagged by all of those laser lights. 
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Jul 2, 2013 21:45
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Squalid posted:Yeah this isn't a youtube comments section; don't spout horrible bigoted poo poo if you can't support it with evidence. Egypt isn't really an oil-based economy like the Gulf.
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Jul 2, 2013 22:08
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Eh the Middle East is far from the only patriarchal religion on earth, it is just gets the most ire from Americans at the moment. Hell, even Japan which is an extremely advanced economy has vast issues with sexual harassment and misogyny, and the US has plenty of its own issues.
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Jul 2, 2013 22:16
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Apparently Morsi has responded forcefully to the millions of protesters in the streets and the threat of a coup from the army with a tweet: Translation seems to be about how he is going to stick to his constitutional legitimacy and asking the military to please withdraw their ultimatum.
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Jul 2, 2013 22:21
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Deteriorata posted:Apparently Morsi has responded forcefully to the millions of protesters in the streets and the threat of a coup from the army with a tweet: Now my Twitter feed is full of people mocking his use of social media to make important announcements in a serious situation like this.
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Jul 2, 2013 22:26
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Deteriorata posted:Apparently Morsi has responded forcefully to the millions of protesters in the streets and the threat of a coup from the army with a tweet: This is a really passive-aggressive, spineless way to address the looming end of his administration.
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Jul 2, 2013 22:29
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Xandu posted:Egypt isn't really an oil-based economy like the Gulf. Actually come to think of it the other north african arab states seem rather progressive compared to Egypt. Am I wrong?
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Jul 2, 2013 22:29
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Ardennes posted:Eh the Middle East is far from the only patriarchal religion on earth, it is just gets the most ire from Americans at the moment. Both can be pretty patriarchal, but the ME does have a lot more young men than the graying societies in East Asia. When you throw in legal polygamy, it doesn't help. All that being said, I don't think it can be proven that a lack of young women leads to more rape (or even that rape is actually higher in Egypt/ME), just throwing it out there.
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Jul 2, 2013 22:31
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Deteriorata posted:Apparently Morsi has responded forcefully to the millions of protesters in the streets and the threat of a coup from the army with a tweet: I repeat. This guy is boned.
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Jul 2, 2013 22:33
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Svartvit posted:It's not conservative muslims roaming the streets sexually harassing women so you two are going to have to find some other angle to attack in your argument. If everyone in Cairo had walked around with an "intensity" of religion it would be a safer place for women. You're lost. If that were the case, Cairo would be more like Riyadh. Deteriorata posted:Apparently Morsi has responded forcefully to the millions of protesters in the streets and the threat of a coup from the army with a tweet: Well since he asked nicely...
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Jul 2, 2013 22:35
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Morsi's on national TV right now!!!!
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Jul 2, 2013 22:36
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Morsi is reportedly giving a national address shortly. Will be very interesting, hopefully he jumps as if he doesn't odds are some people will die. /edit: So far sounds like hes staying. ukle fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 22:36
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Sounds like he's staying, we're in for a bloodbath.
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Jul 2, 2013 22:42
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Morsi may be staying but the army is holding firm as wellquote:"The doctrine and culture of the Armed Forces do not allow the adoption of any 'military-coup-based' policies. The Egyptian military always stands by the will and aspirations of the glorious Egyptian people for change and reform." Well, tomorrow should be interesting.(When is the actual deadline?) e: A spokeswoman for the MB political arm also sounded pretty wishy-washy about Morsi quote:In an interview with Al Jazeera, Alaa Moustafa, a spokeswoman for the Freedom and Justice Party, the political wing of the Muslim Brotherhood, said the party was committed to democracy and the president would call for a national dialogue to let every party take part.
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Jul 2, 2013 22:42
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Amused to Death posted:Morsi may be staying but the army is holding firm as well 14:30 UTC
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Jul 2, 2013 22:43
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Welp.quote:Morsi Defies Egypt Army’s Ultimatum to Bend to Protest
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Jul 2, 2013 22:43
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This is thematically and literally the same speech as the one they gave last Wednesday. Blaming the unrest on "the remains of Mubarak's regime" and "32 families that control Egypt's economy" and "what a great constitution we've made". "There's legitimate anger in the youth but it's being abused by the dark forces that hate democracy and legitimacy and I will not address these evil-doers, but I will address the real genuine opposition" "I have a responsibility to the people that elected me, the constitution created by the people, to the revolution." Ham fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 22:46
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Have stopped watching it as I don't like watching someone who's likely to be dead in the next few days. He's not even considering other people's positions, he is basically mad with power.
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Jul 2, 2013 22:51
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The blood of Egyptians is very important to me. Very. very. VERY!! I hope someone kept a "shara3iyya" count for this speech...
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Jul 2, 2013 22:52
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It's possible that he expects some kind of outside intervention or that if he stalls he might regain the initiative, but more likely he just doesn't know what else to do and hopes that everyone's bluffing.
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Jul 2, 2013 22:54
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menino posted:When you throw in legal polygamy, it doesn't help. Uh...
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Jul 2, 2013 22:54
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He's screaming his head off about traitors and lowlifes and people who hate the country's legitimacy and religion. "Please don't insult the military institution and preserve it alongside me"
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Jul 2, 2013 22:55
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Ham posted:He's screaming his head off about traitors and lowlifes and people who hate the country's legitimacy and religion. This is full meltdown mode...it's unbelievable.
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Jul 2, 2013 22:55
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I AM THE PRESIDENT OF EGYPT "Violence is a vicious trap that we will never get out of.....but let me go ahead and invite civil war between protesters tonight"
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Jul 2, 2013 22:56
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Ham posted:He's screaming his head off about traitors and lowlifes and people who hate the country's legitimacy and religion. Am I a bad person for wanting his rant to end up like the famous Scanners scene?
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Jul 2, 2013 22:57
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His body language is loving terrible. Re-extending invite for discussion regarding national unity and constitutional changes to opposition groups. "There is no alternative to elective legitimacy" Except perhaps the revolution that brought your party to power. "God will not let down Egypt and it's people" Ham fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 23:00
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One of President Morsi's final quotes will seriously be "it's a trap"...
az jan jananam fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Jul 2, 2013 |
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Jul 2, 2013 23:09
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More traps and slopes and narrow tunnels with uncertain ends. The price is now our children and institutions, which we have to maintain. It is too large a price to be placed in a dark narrow tunnel. I send a message of love and appreciation for Egypt's people, but invite them to stand with me and with elective and constitutional legitimacy, to prove to the world our democracy. You should all protest to keep me. Legitimacy is the only shield for future threats. I will not accept any that aim to question my legitimacy. That is not acceptable. That is not acceptable. NOT ACCEPTABLE. I say it again, Egypt will only move forward with my legitimacy. We can have discussions and reforms, but legitimacy over all.
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Jul 2, 2013 23:13
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quote:"The doctrine and culture of the Armed Forces do not allow the adoption of any 'military-coup-based' policies. The Egyptian military always stands by the will and aspirations of the glorious Egyptian people for change and reform." Somebody doesn't understand what coup means. ed ^^^^ Super boned.
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Jul 2, 2013 23:16
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