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The only way I think Sanders runs again in 2020 is if Dems are desperate and no one else look capable. He can do more good being a party elder and working in the Senate.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:33
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Proud Christian Mom posted:The Democrats are quickly running out of states that aren't California/New York to find politicians that can bring together multiple disparate groups. They have to start turning this around now. welcome to the thread friend
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Nov 12, 2016 23:34
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docbeard posted:I think he would, but I think he's also trying his damnedest to set things up so he won't be. Trying to pull the party* back together and back on point, championing Ellison (rather than himself) as DNC chair, even if he's doing it all out of ambition it feels more like ambition for influence in the Senate (which I would feel really good about him getting) than for taking another stab at the big chair in 4-8 years. Dude will be 79 in 2020. This isn't meant to sound like ageism. I just suspect he literary doesn't know if he'll want to put himself though that toil for two years before his 80th birthday because it's emotionally and physically brutal for anyone. Kicking this party's rear end into shape and getting good people running things for the next 50 years is a totally doable legacy he can start working on three days ago.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:35
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Clearly the solution to a party with an incredibly shallow back bench is to not select the guy who has the best record of building grassroots support but instead pick someone else based on an ideological purity test.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:35
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Humidora posted:Goku only had 30 minutes in SSJ3 form and almost beat Majin Buu, therefore he can now turn into a Saiyan God 
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Nov 12, 2016 23:38
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Question: Do independents and the working class even give a poo poo about Progressiveism? Doesn't going balls deep progressive also potentially turn off swathes of voters?
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Nov 12, 2016 23:44
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Xelkelvos posted:Question: Do independents and the working class even give a poo poo about Progressiveism? Doesn't going balls deep progressive also potentially turn off swathes of voters? Progressivism isn't a real ideology to begin with, it's more of a tautology. What really matters is the agenda.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:45
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Xelkelvos posted:Question: Do independents and the working class even give a poo poo about Progressiveism? Doesn't going balls deep progressive also potentially turn off swathes of voters? Well the south was just fine with the New Deal and Great Society until black people started being included. The answer is you have to offer these people something targeted at them in particular. They don't give a poo poo about poor black people in NJ or NY.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:47
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Xelkelvos posted:Question: Do independents and the working class even give a poo poo about Progressiveism? Doesn't going balls deep progressive also potentially turn off swathes of voters? They don't care about the more academic progressive things like asking people their pronouns when you meet them, but the parts about asking the rich to pay their fair share and creating a social net for the poor do seem to pique their interest.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:48
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Xelkelvos posted:Question: Do independents and the working class even give a poo poo about Progressiveism? Doesn't going balls deep progressive also potentially turn off swathes of voters? Not if they ditch stupid poo poo like identity politics and gun control and start pushing legitimate working class legislation. Less celebrities, more New Deal. Face it, gun control is never gonna happen and there are a ton of midwest independents that would be warm to economically leftist ideas if you promise not to take their guns. It's such a stupid loving plank at this point that does nothing but alienate people. If Clinton flat out had a Republican stance on guns would dyed in the wool Democrats vote Stein?
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Nov 12, 2016 23:48
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Xelkelvos posted:Question: Do independents and the working class even give a poo poo about Progressiveism? Doesn't going balls deep progressive also potentially turn off swathes of voters? I doubt they care about the term 'progressivism' but they would probably enjoy 'hey we would actually like you to be able to take care of your families' a fair bit. The question becomes how to win what would ultimately be a war of 'the other side is lying to you' narratives, which is something we have not really been great at for a while.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:48
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docbeard posted:I think he would, but I think he's also trying his damnedest to set things up so he won't be. Trying to pull the party* back together and back on point, championing Ellison (rather than himself) as DNC chair, even if he's doing it all out of ambition it feels more like ambition for influence in the Senate (which I would feel really good about him getting) than for taking another stab at the big chair in 4-8 years. even if he's doing it for ambition, he could literally just reform the party and set the foundation for 30 years of elections and he'll be in the history books for a long drat time lol
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Nov 12, 2016 23:49
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There is no reason whatsoever to drop the identity politics stuff because the point of adopting and pushing the economic poo poo isn't to get Literally Every White Trump Supporter. It's to get back the labor vote (of all demographics) that the dems kicked the gently caress out.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:50
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The gun control poo poo needs to be minimized though. It's the definition an albatross.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:51
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docbeard posted:I doubt they care about the term 'progressivism' but they would probably enjoy 'hey we would actually like you to be able to take care of your families' a fair bit. The good thing is that next time, we get to say "No, really, the other side is lying to you. They have been at the helm and ain't poo poo changed. Also, we cleaned our house of those Clintonites. Sorry about that one."
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Nov 12, 2016 23:51
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Oh Snapple! posted:The gun control poo poo needs to be minimized though. It's the definition an albatross. lets minimize violence through getting rid of lead in our water, better education, and ending poverty. then we can tackle guns.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:52
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Oh Snapple! posted:There is no reason whatsoever to drop the identity politics stuff because the point of adopting and pushing the economic poo poo isn't to get Literally Every White Trump Supporter. It's to get back the labor vote (of all demographics) that the dems kicked the gently caress out. This. Also loving the new title.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:52
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docbeard posted:I doubt they care about the term 'progressivism' but they would probably enjoy 'hey we would actually like you to be able to take care of your families' a fair bit. actually loving do it in states like NY and CA where we have majorities it will be really hard for republicans to call us liars when we can say "gently caress you, look at what we can do when we have majorities"
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Nov 12, 2016 23:53
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Gringostar posted:actually loving do it in states like NY and CA where we have majorities Whatever happened to that ballot initiative for single-payer health care in Colorado, anyway?
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Nov 12, 2016 23:55
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Cubey posted:he doesn't need 8 years my man. run in 2020 with a young progressive like gabbard as vp in case he eats it during office, if he makes it the whole term he retires after one term and hands the reigns to someone like him but younger. sanders is spry as hell. the man has a good decade left in him
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Nov 12, 2016 23:56
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Gringostar posted:actually loving do it in states like NY and CA where we have majorities All the blue states ARE already much more better off than red states.
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Nov 12, 2016 23:56
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Venom Snake posted:All the blue states ARE already much more better off than red states. I know that, but poo poo like affordable housing is a pretty huge issue there and implementing actual socialist solutions to those problems need to happen e: also poo poo like healthcare and childcare
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Nov 12, 2016 23:58
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP_J6gmJYiU think trump can do this lol?
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Nov 12, 2016 23:58
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Gringostar posted:I know that, but poo poo like affordable housing is a pretty huge issue there and implementing actual socialist solutions to those problems need to happen Well oh course. I'm just saying that blue states will continue to get better while Red states continue to slide into hell and it's going to sharpen the divide further.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:00
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docbeard posted:Whatever happened to that ballot initiative for single-payer health care in Colorado, anyway? It failed to pass by a large margin, unfortunately. Almost 80% against.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:01
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Oh Snapple! posted:There is no reason whatsoever to drop the identity politics stuff because the point of adopting and pushing the economic poo poo isn't to get Literally Every White Trump Supporter. It's to get back the labor vote (of all demographics) that the dems kicked the gently caress out. I think identity politics actually backfired this cycle. There really is a difference between telling someone "Racists should be compelled to forsake their racist ways using shame and force" and "Black/Hispanic/gay/trans people deserve the same freedom and opportunities as everyone else" even if both are true. I think identity politics has a tendency to focus on the former and lose sight of the latter.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:04
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Yeah, as an academic, a lot of social justice discourse comes out of academia and is just as smarmy and self-righteous as the rest of academia is. Shockingly, this isn't appealing to those outside of the ivory tower. Not saying that trans folks need to just accept being misgendered to heal divisions with the working-class but discourse has to change. And, honestly, it falls on whites, men, the cisgendered, and heterosexuals to go and do that bridge-building with "deplorables." We need a nuanced position where we don't pressure PoC to get over their anger while simultaneously communicating with the working-class without screaming them down. It's going to be tricky.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:09
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Hillary will run again in 2020. She will lose by a larger margin. Comey will be her vp.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:13
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Hillary Clinton Blames F.B.I. Director for Election Loss http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/us/politics/hillary-clinton-james-comey.html
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Nov 13, 2016 00:13
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Mr. Jive posted:I think identity politics actually backfired this cycle. There really is a difference between telling someone "Racists should be compelled to forsake their racist ways using shame and force" and "Black/Hispanic/gay/trans people deserve the same freedom and opportunities as everyone else" even if both are true. I think identity politics has a tendency to focus on the former and lose sight of the latter. I don't think id politics themselves backfired, I think they were completely and utterly misused, largely because they took the first tone you mentioned there. Hillary outright saying that at least half of Trump's voters were racist was dumb, for instance, because it's such a huge number that every single one of his voters is going to feel like they were attacked regardless of which part of his messaging actually appealed to them.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:16
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The problem with identity politics isn't that it seeks equal rights for all citizens, it's that it typically deludes that messages from 'all citizens deserve equal rights; all citizens deserve economic relief' into 'just this one specific group needs help, the rest are fine, totally' and that pisses off whichever group is currently absent from the narrative
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Nov 13, 2016 00:18
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Basically, it inadvertently divides the proletariat into camps against perceived preferential treatment, when it should be replaced with a wider, class based philosophy seeking to advance everyone, equally.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:19
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https://twitter.com/liamvhogan/status/797413179370287104
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Nov 13, 2016 00:20
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Peel posted:anyway, the heavy focus on reforming democratic economic stances, while important, imo continues to obscure a point itt: that the #1 threat to democratic success in future elections, and one of the key causes of the disaster on election day, is republican attempts to prevent minorities voting. they already have met with success and now they control more state governments, the justice department, and might have more of the supreme court. on the face of it making sure their base is allowed to vote at all in future elections is the most important task for the democratic party right now. hopefully obama will still try to do this even though his position is much worse I can keep reposting this ad infinitum. My cold dead hands while locked in rigor mortis will continue to repost this same post on this same comedy forum until the DNC actually takes this seriously.
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Nov 13, 2016 00:22
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Fullhouse posted:so allow workers to file labor complaints regardless of their residence status and that all goes away, and you still have a hard-working labor class who, as a reminder, commit LESS crimes than native-born citizens (https://www.americanimmigrationcoun...campaign=Buffer) and actually NOTICEABLY REDUCE crime rates in communities that have high numbers of recent immigrants moving in (http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10940-013-9210-5) I linked crime statistics to Trumpeters and they just told me to get hosed. They didn't seem to be interested in facts. Sad! Thoguh posted:They're opposed to having competition for the dwindling number of low skill jobs from people who accept terrible pay and working conditions because they are even more desperate than everybody else. It is so much cheaper and much less illegal to just mandate a fair wage for ALL workers (thus removing the benefit of hiring illegal immigrants) than building a loving Wall and deporting them all. Also a fair wage mandate will actually help the working class. Wow! NO! Keith Ellison only! Sharia law now! quote:Clinton and Clinton campaign staff pointing blame everywhere else but at themselves. gently caress you! You are all the loving worst! Aaaah! quote:Donna Brazile tweeting inspirational quotes. Can we bring back tar and feathering?
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Nov 13, 2016 00:27
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good news! https://twitter.com/ckilpatrick/status/797525996744429568
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Nov 13, 2016 00:30
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there should be a rule where u cant post in this thread if u haven't called your DNC person to yell about keith and gotten at least one other person to do so too
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Nov 13, 2016 00:30
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Peel posted:anyway, the heavy focus on reforming democratic economic stances, while important, imo continues to obscure a point itt: that the #1 threat to democratic success in future elections, and one of the key causes of the disaster on election day, is republican attempts to prevent minorities voting. they already have met with success and now they control more state governments, the justice department, and might have more of the supreme court. on the face of it making sure their base is allowed to vote at all in future elections is the most important task for the democratic party right now. hopefully obama will still try to do this even though his position is much worse glad princess di quoted this because i meant to reply to it earlier for real, please keep bringing this stuff up. it's very easy to get stuck talking about economics over and over again and things like the race component can too easily get lost even if the folks doing most of the talking dont mean for them to be. posts like yours keep the issues in there and keeps us honest on them, and that is extremely valuable
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Nov 13, 2016 00:32
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Larry Parrish posted:Basically, it inadvertently divides the proletariat into camps against perceived preferential treatment, when it should be replaced with a wider, class based philosophy seeking to advance everyone, equally. Is there a way to frame this in idpol terms that won't cause the fury of a thousand suns?
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Nov 13, 2016 00:32
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this was good. slay queen  https://twitter.com/CNNPolitics/status/642098739272773632
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Nov 13, 2016 00:32
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