The democrats are a waste

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The democrats are a waste

Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed.
B	77	25.50%
K	160	52.98%
M	65	21.52%
Total:	229 votes

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Agnosticnixie: Jan 6, 2015

SimonCat posted:

Many of my family are farmers.

The basic question is are they extracting labor

# ? May 15, 2017 00:24

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 20:33

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

SimonCat posted:

Many of my family are farmers.

they can work at the local kolkhoz then

# ? May 15, 2017 00:24

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

pigdog posted:

This sounds like someone who has read 19th century books on Marxism but missed everything about the implementations in the 20th century.

What if I don't agree with your idea of abolishing private property, indeed suppose I quite like mine?

well they're one step ahead of you apparently

# ? May 15, 2017 00:25

JeffersonClay: Jun 17, 2003; by R. Guyovich

rudatron posted:

Jc in the confederate state: well slavery is bad, but think about the possiblity of unemployment

That's funny, because "there's no difference between wage slavery and chattel slavery" was literally one of the arguments confederates made to defend the peculiar institution.

# ? May 15, 2017 00:39

Agnosticnixie: Jan 6, 2015

JeffersonClay posted:

That's funny, because "there's no difference between wage slavery and chattel slavery" was literally one of the arguments confederates made to defend the peculiar institution.

The argument that relied on that was that it was more benign, which was even more bullshit than claiming it was identical. Which pretty much no one is currently making seriously except to laugh at your lovely positions. Also I'm sure you're aware of Frederick Douglass' comments on sicilian sulfur mines, even if I'm sure you'd disingenuously argue otherwise.

# ? May 15, 2017 00:42

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

no, I mean in the "private ownership of capital" sense, which is the like most important thing

You're technically correct here, but in the greater context of American political discourse "socialism" is usually interpreted in terms of European social democracies (and the things they contain, like universal healthcare etc). It's not unreasonable for someone to hear Pelosi's response and interpret it as a rejection of the ideology associated with Bernie Sanders' movement.

# ? May 15, 2017 01:06

JeffersonClay: Jun 17, 2003; by R. Guyovich

Agnosticnixie posted:

The argument that relied on that was that it was more benign, which was even more bullshit than claiming it was identical. Which pretty much no one is currently making seriously except to laugh at your lovely positions. Also I'm sure you're aware of Frederick Douglass' comments on sicilian sulfur mines, even if I'm sure you'd disingenuously argue otherwise.

Are you thinking of Booker T Washington?

And "nobody is conflating wage slavery and chattel slavery except the people trying to mock you and confederates" is, uh, exactly my point.

# ? May 15, 2017 02:04

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

Ytlaya posted:

You're technically correct here, but in the greater context of American political discourse "socialism" is usually interpreted in terms of European social democracies (and the things they contain, like universal healthcare etc). It's not unreasonable for someone to hear Pelosi's response and interpret it as a rejection of the ideology associated with Bernie Sanders' movement.

Yeah, it didn't exactly exude enthusiasm for reforming American capitalism as it exists today, in all its deregulated glory.

# ? May 15, 2017 02:28

ugh its Troika: May 2, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

In a thread about democrats being a waste and how to theoretically fix this: people unironically talking about ~violent socialist revolution~ to fix America.

Y'all are the part of the democrats that holds endless round tables on completely unrealistic pipe dreams.

# ? May 15, 2017 02:37

Agnosticnixie: Jan 6, 2015

JeffersonClay posted:

Are you thinking of Booker T Washington?

And "nobody is conflating wage slavery and chattel slavery except the people trying to mock you and confederates" is, uh, exactly my point.

Yeah you got me, it was Washington, not Douglass, my bad.

Your point is still disingenuous poo poo. Nobody's arguing the point to defend chattel slavery or exploitation.

# ? May 15, 2017 02:38

Kilroy: Oct 1, 2000

ISIS CURES TROONS posted:

In a thread about democrats being a waste and how to theoretically fix this: people unironically talking about ~violent socialist revolution~ to fix America.

Y'all are the part of the democrats that holds endless round tables on completely unrealistic pipe dreams.

I happen to think it's better to start at what you think is the best possible solution and then try to get as much of that as you can, as opposed to asking "what do the Republicans want to do" then trying to make the best of that.

This does put me at odds with most mainstream and establishment Democrats, but I thought that was the point of this thread. "How to fix this" is kind of optional: not everyone here thinks that's possible.

# ? May 15, 2017 02:57

gtrmp: Sep 29, 2008; Oba-Ma... Oba-Ma! Oba-Ma, aasha deh!

Majorian posted:

It's a shame the Democrats didn't respond with "Here's how we're going to make it better," and instead went with "Hey, everything's great as it is! No change needed."

Yeah, the first time I realized that the Democrats were actually capable of losing an election to Donald loving Trump was when their rebuttal to "Make America Great Again" was "America Is Already Great".

# ? May 15, 2017 03:19

Fiction: Apr 28, 2011

ISIS CURES TROONS posted:

In a thread about democrats being a waste and how to theoretically fix this: people unironically talking about ~violent socialist revolution~ to fix America.

Y'all are the part of the democrats that holds endless round tables on completely unrealistic pipe dreams.

Aren't you a landlord who took pride in evicting a homeless person? I think we all know why you want socialist revolution to be a "pipe dream."

Also, things are violent right now. You just aren't the target of the violence so you see no problem with it.

# ? May 15, 2017 15:04

Eggplant Squire: Aug 14, 2003

Fiction posted:

Aren't you a landlord who took pride in evicting a homeless person? I think we all know why you want socialist revolution to be a "pipe dream."

Also, things are violent right now. You just aren't the target of the violence so you see no problem with it.

Mark Twain posted:

There were two 'Reigns of Terror', if we could but remember and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passions, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon a thousand persons, the other upon a hundred million; but our shudders are all for the "horrors of the... momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty and heartbreak? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief terror that we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror - that unspeakable bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.

# ? May 15, 2017 15:08

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

ISIS CURES TROONS posted:

Y'all are the part of the democrats that holds endless round tables on completely unrealistic pipe dreams.

Indeed, we should join the part of the Dems who think that for every working class voter they hemorrhage, they'll pick up two suburban Republican moderates.

Also, not very many people here are actually advocating a socialist revolution in the near future, violent or otherwise.

# ? May 15, 2017 17:34

Willie Tomg: Feb 2, 2006

If the democrats held roundtables where they talked about inconvenient facts and internal dissonance in intra-party dynamics instead of performatively blowing off voters they really really need like the usual suspects ITT they probably would have nominated a better candidate and won some more elections last year tbqh

# ? May 15, 2017 17:43

Kilroy: Oct 1, 2000

Willie Tomg posted:

If the democrats held roundtables where they talked about inconvenient facts and internal dissonance in intra-party dynamics instead of performatively blowing off voters they really really need like the usual suspects ITT they probably would have nominated a better candidate and won some more elections last year tbqh

It's only purity testing when the left does it. When centrists do it they're just being pragmatic, oh and also because they're not racist, you loving racist.

# ? May 15, 2017 18:51

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

Willie Tomg posted:

If the democrats held roundtables where they talked about inconvenient facts and internal dissonance in intra-party dynamics

Perhaps a caucus of some sort? :smug:

(but ones that take place around the country and without really janky rules)

# ? May 15, 2017 19:00

Name Change: Oct 9, 2005

Is there a third option between corporatist Demonicrats and college Marxists? Because I'd really love to read that pamphlet instead of this poo poo.

You know we're lost in the weeds when "hmm why not appeal to blue collar voters instead of losing elections because of them" is being framed as revolutionary by anybody, whether you are for or against the great socialist re-ordering that passed us by about a century ago.

# ? May 15, 2017 20:52

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

dont even fink about it posted:

Is there a third option between corporatist Demonicrats and college Marxists? Because I'd really love to read that pamphlet instead of this poo poo.

You know we're lost in the weeds when "hmm why not appeal to blue collar voters instead of losing elections because of them" is being framed as revolutionary by anybody, whether you are for or against the great socialist re-ordering that passed us by about a century ago.

may I introduce you to a gentleman by the name of Bernard Sanders

# ? May 15, 2017 20:58

Fados: Jan 7, 2013; I like Malcolm X, I can't be racist!

Put this racist dipshit on ignore immediately!

dont even fink about it posted:

Is there a third option between corporatist Demonicrats and college Marxists? Because I'd really love to read that pamphlet instead of this poo poo.

You know we're lost in the weeds when "hmm why not appeal to blue collar voters instead of losing elections because of them" is being framed as revolutionary by anybody, whether you are for or against the great socialist re-ordering that passed us by about a century ago.

America is so backwards in their free market fundamentalism that a 'great re-ordering' even the 20th century european social-democratic style would be a truly revolutionary thing.

# ? May 15, 2017 20:59

Bob le Moche: Jul 10, 2011; I AM A HORRIBLE TANKIE MORON
WHO LONGS TO SUCK CHAVISTA COCK !

I SUGGEST YOU IGNORE ANY POSTS MADE BY THIS PERSON ABOUT VENEZUELA, POLITICS, OR ANYTHING ACTUALLY !

(This title paid for by money stolen from PDVSA)

Fados posted:

America is so backwards in their free market fundamentalism that a 'great re-ordering' even the 20th century european social-democratic style would be a truly revolutionary thing.

And would be opposed by the ruling class with as much urgency and violence as revolutionary communism used to be, hence why european-style social democracy, which relies on the possibility of peaceful compromise with the bourgeoisie, has no political relevance today.

Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 22:15 on May 15, 2017

# ? May 15, 2017 22:09

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

I have a good idea. We should create a policy where every month the top 10 richest Americans are executed by the government. This would lead to all the richest people panicking and donating/spending money in order to avoid being at the top of the list, resulting in a cascading effect that would greatly decrease income inequality within the space of a few months.

edit: Hm, but the rich might also gift the money to one another in a sort of lethal game of hot potato. Though I guess that would also be okay.

# ? May 15, 2017 22:32

Paradoxish: Dec 19, 2003; Will you stop going crazy in there?

dont even fink about it posted:

Is there a third option between corporatist Demonicrats and college Marxists? Because I'd really love to read that pamphlet instead of this poo poo.

You know we're lost in the weeds when "hmm why not appeal to blue collar voters instead of losing elections because of them" is being framed as revolutionary by anybody, whether you are for or against the great socialist re-ordering that passed us by about a century ago.

I mean, very little of modern western leftism is actually Marxism in any real sense anyway. The problem is that in the US even advocating for social democracy is enough to cause a lot of moderate Democrats to freak out and Republicans to completely lose their poo poo. I guess that's what happens when we spend decades pretending that a right-wing lunatic fringe actually holds reasonable, mainstream positions.

# ? May 15, 2017 22:41

R. Guyovich: Dec 25, 1991

Confounding Factor posted:

I'll say it again, there is nothing more reactionary than a policy that allows free flow of exploitable labor between countries. Immigration is really about worker protections, that's what you neoliberals never get.

hmmmmm

Lenin posted:

Only reactionaries can shut their eyes to the progressive significance of this modern migration of nations. Emancipation from the yoke of capital is impossible without the further development of capitalism, and without the class struggle that is based on it. And it is into this struggle that capitalism is drawing the masses of the working people of the whole world, breaking down the musty, fusty habits of local life, breaking down national barriers and prejudices, uniting workers from all countries in huge factories and mines in America, Germany, and so forth.

# ? May 16, 2017 02:42

Lightning Lord: Feb 21, 2013; $200 a day, plus expenses

I just want a pension.

# ? May 16, 2017 11:30

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

https://twitter.com/zellieimani/status/859883659712647168

quote:

There are certain crimes that if you commit them, you should never be able to participate in the electoral process again. Those crimes include official misconduct, extortion, bribery, closing bridges. And with the exception of crimes touching upon public employment, if you have served your time, then you should be allowed to participate.

We have a Jim Crow system that carries forward. We can connect today�s incarceration nation directly back to slavery; it is exactly the reason they�re doing it. We had lease labor after Reconstruction, and what was that? Put black people in jail, make them work, lease them out to their former owners. And what are we doing today? We have the Correction Corporation of America making money on our misery. And this has got to stop. So, in no uncertain terms, am I going to continue Jim Crow. I�m going to come up here; I�m going to go there and I�m going to go everywhere, and I�m going to tell the truth about what our nation is doing to its own people.

Our nation was built upon two things: the genocide of Native Americans and the enslavement of African Americans. And, today, in the United States of America, right now, Native Americans are standing their ground at Standing Rock against the government of the United States and African Americans are still locked up in prisons and working for corporations as if slavery never ended. And that, my friends, is how we�re going to stop it. The question was, �What am I going to do about it?� If I cannot get the Legislature to bend to the will of my needs as a governor who wants to free the people of this state, then I will use the power of my office to pardon every single nonviolent [alleged offender] and they will vote.

# ? May 16, 2017 12:26

The Kingfish: Oct 21, 2015

That's awesome.

# ? May 16, 2017 12:33

rudatron: May 31, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

JeffersonClay posted:

That's funny, because "there's no difference between wage slavery and chattel slavery" was literally one of the arguments confederates made to defend the peculiar institution.

It's an analogy to demonstrate how broke-brain 'we can't improve their working conditions or they'll be unemployed' is. So long as labor has to be done, someone's getting paid to do it. Clothes aren't going to stitch themselves together.

Your faux-concern of the employability, is nothing but a smokescreen for your disgusting self-interest and greed, the benefits you receive from the the exploitation of third-world workers.

rudatron fucked around with this message at 13:16 on May 16, 2017

# ? May 16, 2017 13:07

Eggplant Squire: Aug 14, 2003

The "sweat shops are a Reasonable Thing and if you don't like them you are the real racist" stuff is why I'm not super confident that Democrats like Hillary actually really care much about social issues which require any sort of sacrifice on the part of privileged people or industry profits. You can also see this in her statement on the DAPL where instead of supporting the Native Americans and protesters being attacked and mutilated she put out a tepid "let's all be nice and make sure everyone is safe" statement as if the two sides were in any way equivalent in use of violence. Even when her friend asked her to stand up for gay marriage in 2008 it was too much since she had to consider the "family values" people so we couldn't get ahead of the public on that civil right.

I mean yeah that's better than the GOP that actively want to return to their halcyon days of pre-Civil War America but that's a really low bar to set as the standard.

Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 13:21 on May 16, 2017

# ? May 16, 2017 13:17

The Kingfish: Oct 21, 2015

rudatron posted:

Your faux-concern of the employability, is nothing but a smokescreen for your disgusting self-interest and greed, the benefits you receive from the the exploitation of third-world workers.

It would be easier if this was true. JC doesn't post like that because he is a 1%er. He apologizes for capital because he has internalized neoliberal ideology to the extent that he can't imagine a scenario where conditions are improved for exploited people absent the free market.

# ? May 16, 2017 13:56

mcmagic: Jul 1, 2004; If you see this avatar while scrolling the succ zone, you have been visited by the mcmagic of shitty lib takes! Good luck and prosperity will come to you, but only if you reply "shut the fuck up mcmagic" to this post!

https://twitter.com/politico/status/864583752026120192

Democrats are a waste.

# ? May 16, 2017 22:05

Phi230: Feb 2, 2016; by Fluffdaddy

pigdog posted:

This sounds like someone who has read 19th century books on Marxism but missed everything about the implementations in the 20th century.

What if I don't agree with your idea of abolishing private property, indeed suppose I quite like mine? That's quite a quagmire that has to be solved with bullets. There is no way other than totalitarianist terror to keep any kind of society together after eliminating all that pesky property and these who had it, or were fighting to have it. Not only have "brilliant" ideas such as this caused and will inevitably cause massive civil wars with millions of deaths, but even the most wretched homeless of today's capitalist America are living a life preferable to the misery, poverty, and terror that follows. The situation in America is still very very far from revolutionary, and even the poorest have better opportunities and are living great lives compared to the majority of the planet. It can be so, so, so much worse.

Look somebody doesn't know the difference between private property and personal property

# ? May 16, 2017 22:16

NewForumSoftware: Oct 8, 2016; by Lowtax

mcmagic posted:

https://twitter.com/politico/status/864583752026120192

Democrats are a waste.

# ? May 16, 2017 22:17

Phi230: Feb 2, 2016; by Fluffdaddy

Let's prevent the most popular politician in America from running for higher office!

The Democrats!

# ? May 16, 2017 22:19

Lightning Lord: Feb 21, 2013; $200 a day, plus expenses

Phi230 posted:

Look somebody doesn't know the difference between private property and personal property

Unfortunately most people don't. That's definitely a messaging problem.

# ? May 16, 2017 22:20

D.N. Nation: Feb 1, 2012

What is it with leftists getting suckered by Politico headlines? I think Sarah Jones stumbles on one a week.

Read the article. Markos kinda calling him a dick is as bad as it gets. Also, there's this:

quote:

Staffers and aides are willing to give him time, for now. But they worry that Sanders won�t decide until too late for many of them to be able to go to other campaigns if he sits 2020 out, and that frustrates them. They worry that he hasn�t processed what really running again would entail, and is convinced it would be lightning in a bottle again.

�From the senior leadership on down, one of the biggest problems we faced was not enough middle management who knew that and now he has a real opportunity to lock those people down now, whether through Our Revolution or his Senate campaign, and there doesn�t appear to be any effort to do that,� said one member of his 2016 campaign.

drat you Bernie staffers! How dare you besmirch his name!

# ? May 16, 2017 22:24