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What's with the obsession with 3D-izing 2D games? Why are polygons seen as an automatic improvement over pixel art? I'm talking about even nominally good-looking games like Dragon Quest VIII. Does it really rock anyone's socks to climb stairs as a 3D character as opposed to just entering a stairs tile?
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Nov 13, 2020 18:26
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Disco Pope posted:I haven't played those, but that sounds okay. Recently, Hollow Knight kind of has it (even though I love that game and the character design itself). Skull Girls has it. It just makes things look a little cheap to my eyes, but I also realise that this is kind of subjective and unreasonable. Oh, so an actually controversial opinion I hold, is that Cuphead looks just like a Tex Avery cartoon, and that Tex Avery cartoons are kinda fuckin dull. I think the animation, as in, the frame rate and smoothness is really nice, but the actual artistic content, like, screenshots, are hella boring. I was really hoping they were gonna do the cliche thing of it becoming like, corrupted somehow, either glitchily, or ghostly, or even that over done classic, lovecraftian, because the art style is just so staid.
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Nov 13, 2020 18:29
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Vegetable posted:What's with the obsession with 3D-izing 2D games? Why are polygons seen as an automatic improvement over pixel art? I'm talking about even nominally good-looking games like Dragon Quest VIII. Does it really rock anyone's socks to climb stairs as a 3D character as opposed to just entering a stairs tile? Game developers were certainly obsessed with it more than the players were. Pretty sure it was pushed by marketing.
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Nov 13, 2020 18:30
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Chomp8645 posted:Developers who are good and not clowns tailor their features to what the AI can handle in any strategy game where multiplayer isn't the main focus. The Total War team figured out a while ago some things during siege battles like "the AI is very dumb about approaching a city from multiple sides, but can handle approaching it from one side well enough" and "if the AI must get individual pieces of siege equipment in the right places to not to be 100% stuck outside, they will frequently become 100% stuck outside". Total War Shogun 2 is trash because AI can pull out 1st tier armies out of its rear end if they do it inside the fog of war, so you can expect that any tiny corner you missed will spawn a full stack of mooks which will then burn your industries and siege your city. Also, blocking their ports does absolutely nothing because the AI is not running an economy, its just running a simulation made to match the player if they are doing otherwise fine. And overtake the minute the player actually needs to attend to the trash mob armies pouring in from every direction. Its just unnecessary grind and makes otherwise good game an absolute slog to play through in single player campaign.
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Nov 13, 2020 20:28
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steinrokkan posted:Have they figured out how to make the Civ 6 AI be able to capture cities yet? funnily enough the only AI faction that's any good at capturing cities is barbarians because they're designed to attack and kill anything they can see with no consideration for strategic retreating or unit preservation
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Nov 13, 2020 20:44
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i hear a lot of complaining about ai in various games but what do you guys think are the smartest ai you have encountered in games? who is doing it right?
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Nov 13, 2020 20:53
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IMO Hitman has some really good AI, considering it has to follow multiple different types of routines (regular patrol, combat, scripted sequences, search sequences) which all have to be able to switch between each other on the fly. It also models things like information flow between people - it's possible for only a subset of people to be aware of your disguise, but that number will keep increasing as they tell other people. If you elude the AI it will also do stuff like continue searching your last known location rather than just psychically know where you are. Sometimes the AI is a little 'funny,' but it almost never breaks or feels unfair - very impressive considering the intricate clockwork levels of Hitman.
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Nov 13, 2020 21:24
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Earwicker posted:i hear a lot of complaining about ai in various games but what do you guys think are the smartest ai you have encountered in games? who is doing it right? "Smart" AI is massively complex and thus bug ridden and self contradictory. The best AI is one that does a good job of filling a simple role. Actually, I need to clarify that a bit. Current technology make make very "smart" AI that's good at optimizing complex systems with known rules, but bad at making "smart" like we intuitively understand smart to mean, doing clever and tricky things that surprise you. No AI I've seen makes you feel like you're even remotely close to facing off against a even a dumb human opponent.
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Nov 13, 2020 21:41
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Earwicker posted:i hear a lot of complaining about ai in various games but what do you guys think are the smartest ai you have encountered in games? who is doing it right? starcraft 2 does it right. its AI understands the rules of the game, and how to play by them, and it has a list of major viable strategies it's capable of pursuing based on known pvp plays and builds. the easier the difficulty is set to, the lower the cap on its permitted actions per minute, and the fewer strategies it can access. technically blizzard's vanilla sc2 AI can feel like it plays like the deep blue of starcraft, but only because it can in theory have almost infinite apm. it isn't capable of doing highly complicated strategies like cheeses and it won't execute certain plays such as blocking your expansion. it doesn't cheat and it only knows what it scouts like a human player. and, like a real person, you can cripple it by preventing it from getting intel on you so it has to select its build blind. but it will fight somewhat like a human and i've seen it spam dozens of static defense buildings in its last-stand base rather than surrender lol
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Nov 13, 2020 21:48
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The White Dragon posted:starcraft 2 does it right. its AI understands the rules of the game, and how to play by them, and it has a list of major viable strategies it's capable of pursuing based on known pvp plays and builds. the easier the difficulty is set to, the lower the cap on its permitted actions per minute, and the fewer strategies it can access. technically blizzard's vanilla sc2 AI can feel like it plays like the deep blue of starcraft, but only because it can in theory have almost infinite apm. it isn't capable of doing highly complicated strategies like cheeses and it won't execute certain plays such as blocking your expansion. wow it doesn't throw up a gg and quit? such bm, smh
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Nov 13, 2020 22:39
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It does when it thinks that it's about to lose, but they do drag it out a fair bit especially because it keeps sending workers to rebuild bases all over the map.
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Nov 13, 2020 22:41
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So Prodeus... it's not really good. it want's to be classic oldschool shooter and a modern game with all the glitter. But basically it want's to be *that particular sprite shooter but in real 3D 2020* and it kinda sucks. TTK and overall speed is not great, doesn't create any flow just waiting periods. The gore is overly annoying, no proper separation between a kill and a hit since everything is covered in blood.fx particle bullshit. The soundtrack is really loving boring and my personal bar is probaly kinda low for this. The sound mixing is way overkill. The overall issue the devs seem to not get is this boring metaphor "less is more" because it would be so much in this case. It's a rather slow shooter so just make its moment to moment stuff actually intense and diverse (as in not ever HIT generates a view filling blood fountain) instead of leveling everything at 20% over maximumg, making it boring. Oh and disabeling JUMP when you're sprinting will be the most loving worst descision ever in every game. Disgusting.
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Nov 13, 2020 23:28
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ishikabibble posted:this is 100% because you grew up in the SNES/etc era Actually my first console was the N64. I'd played a few SNES games at a neighbor's house but the first game I actually engaged with was Ocarina of Time. 3D is necessary for some specific game types and completely unnecessary for others, and I love 2d games for delivering just as much enjoyment for less investment than many 3d games. They take up less space on your hard drive and cost less but generally can deliver just as much fun, assuming it's a decent game. I don't dislike the 3d formula or anything, I still have heaps of 3d games but I'm glad that we have such a wealth of game types these days. Ugly In The Morning posted:They’ve gone down a bit from cartridge based stuff, often without even adjusting for inflation. I remember 80 dollar N64 games back in the day. Not that surprising since nearly everything technology related has gotten cheaper as technology improves. Games are easier to make, distribute, and sell than ever, maybe not including super expensive games that are on the cutting edge of graphical tech and need to hire actual actors and such.
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Nov 14, 2020 00:18
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Earwicker posted:i hear a lot of complaining about ai in various games but what do you guys think are the smartest ai you have encountered in games? who is doing it right? doom does it right op the AI doesn't try to trick you into thinking it's as smart as a player, and the designers don't try to force it to accomplish clever things that it's not smart enough to accomplish the cyberdemon walks at you and shoots missiles and it works just fine
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Nov 14, 2020 02:06
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dota 2 openai team was dope to watch
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Nov 14, 2020 03:02
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Since Hollow Knight is free right now, I installed it and started playing again. Finished the first area and the 2 bosses there. Neither boss is hard at all, though I died on each one time as I had to relearn how they worked. I probably could have finished on the first try but I was a bit aggressive at first. Dunno why anyone thinks the beginning of this game is hard.
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Nov 14, 2020 03:33
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Der Kyhe posted:Total War Shogun 2 is trash because AI can pull out 1st tier armies out of its rear end if they do it inside the fog of war, so you can expect that any tiny corner you missed will spawn a full stack of mooks which will then burn your industries and siege your city. Also, blocking their ports does absolutely nothing because the AI is not running an economy, its just running a simulation made to match the player if they are doing otherwise fine. And overtake the minute the player actually needs to attend to the trash mob armies pouring in from every direction. This was true at release but has since been patched out so the AI follows a more “believable” growth and spawn locations.
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Nov 14, 2020 03:38
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Waltzing Along posted:Since Hollow Knight is free right now, I installed it and started playing again. Finished the first area and the 2 bosses there. Neither boss is hard at all, though I died on each one time as I had to relearn how they worked. I probably could have finished on the first try but I was a bit aggressive at first. It was boring. Not difficult just tiresome.
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Nov 14, 2020 04:24
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Waltzing Along posted:Since Hollow Knight is free right now, I installed it and started playing again. Finished the first area and the 2 bosses there. Neither boss is hard at all, though I died on each one time as I had to relearn how they worked. I probably could have finished on the first try but I was a bit aggressive at first. The game is really long and mostly easy if you're any good at games. There's probably some extra stuff to do that is pretty challenging but by the end of that overly long game I was too tired of it to bother with the extra ending and dlc or whatever.
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Nov 14, 2020 04:44
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I died a bajillion times to every hollow knight boss, and I never even came close to beating the extra-hard bosses from all the free dlc. all you goons are too good at videogames for your own good Overall I enjoyed it, but for a metroidvania it was really bad at signaling what your new power opened up or where you should head next, and I spent a bunch of hours just randomly running back and forth across the game map trying to figure out where to go next. RPATDO_LAMD fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Nov 14, 2020 |
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Nov 14, 2020 05:06
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The White Dragon posted:it doesn't cheat and it only knows what it scouts like a human player. and, like a real person, you can cripple it by preventing it from getting intel on you so it has to select its build blind. but it will fight somewhat like a human and i've seen it spam dozens of static defense buildings in its last-stand base rather than surrender lol I was going to bring up the SC2 AI, but... you're 100% wrong on the AI not cheating. I've never heard of any 'apm limiters', but the AI absolutely does have a 'maphack' and every time you see a scouting worker-unit find your hidden expansion, it's because the AI already knew it was there and is doing a courtesy scout to give advance warning and keep up the smoke and mirrors. At higher difficulties it gets resource advantages, but if you're playing skirmish matches on 'brutal' the AI has already done it's job and you should be playing vs humans. This is all in reference to the shipped AI, and not aftermarket projects like AlphaStar or the SC1 GUI competitions for students. edit: sorry that came out kinda harsh. I think it's a vote in sc2's favor that it's totally plausible that there's no cheating going on, it's that solid. Slightly less good is the Sins of a Solar Empire AI, which needs a minor resource boost to stay competitive but still fulfills its role in amusing players and posing a threat. You'll note both of these are RTS games, where the player is hampered by their ability to multitask in realtime. I can't think of any really solid turn-based ones for computer games that isn't Chess or Go or whatever. Serephina fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Nov 14, 2020 |
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Nov 14, 2020 05:07
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I remember being blown away by the AI in FEAR a long time ago. The AI in the new XCOM games is good. The game is consistently challenging but it never feels like the game is cheating.
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Nov 14, 2020 05:28
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WILDTURKEY101 posted:I remember being blown away by the AI in FEAR a long time ago. FEAR used Goal-Oriented Action Planning, which is why it appears "smarter" Some videos I found interesting on this topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bbhJi0NBkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaOLBOuyswI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm7K68663rA
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Nov 14, 2020 06:14
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Fear also had great feeling AI because they had a million callouts. It really impressed me when they yelled "Flashlight beam!" after forgetting to turn my torch off, or yelled like, "He's by the photocopier!" I'm not sure if that's really been replicated to the extent.
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Nov 14, 2020 06:17
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A lot of good AI design is smoke and mirrors, but that doesn't make it any less impressive. I think it works better when enemies work on their own terms rather than trying to stand in for human players.
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Nov 14, 2020 06:24
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I've been playing 3d all stars, and I think sunshine might be a bad game.
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Nov 14, 2020 06:26
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Vegetable posted:What's with the obsession with 3D-izing 2D games? Why are polygons seen as an automatic improvement over pixel art? I'm talking about even nominally good-looking games like Dragon Quest VIII. Does it really rock anyone's socks to climb stairs as a 3D character as opposed to just entering a stairs tile? I think it's because it's easier and cheaper to produce. A lot of great 3D artists are surprisingly not actually very good at drawing, let alone 2d animation. You can animate and tweak a character a lot quicker with a rigged 3d model and keep it at a high FPS. It's not often that it's a great look or aesthetic overall though and doesn't help they generally feel like the barest of iterations of some default sidescrolling thing included with their dev software or copy pasted from tutorials.
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Nov 14, 2020 06:43
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3d is WAY more flexable. 2d you either draw every single thing you want of break up the pieces and look like a flash animation. Unpop opinion: I die a little inside every time the scripts and routines that make up every computer enemy is called AI when it is explicitly not AI, I don't know who started that but they are a dick.
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Nov 14, 2020 09:29
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AI doesn't actually mean anything using it to refer to enemy scripting in videogames is much less of a sin than using it for lovely black-box machine learning algorithms though
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Nov 14, 2020 09:36
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"You can pet the dog in this game" became horrifically lame like four years ago. The people who still get excited over it are basically telling chuck norris jokes
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Nov 14, 2020 09:40
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Caesar Saladin posted:Fear also had great feeling AI because they had a million callouts. It really impressed me when they yelled "Flashlight beam!" after forgetting to turn my torch off, or yelled like, "He's by the photocopier!" I'm not sure if that's really been replicated to the extent. Installed it a while back and it still holds up. The scary parts are just tedious these days since so many other games have done it better since but the shooting is still up there partially because the AI is so drat good. Another thing that impressed me was that I didn't need to do poo poo to get it running. Just went into options, set it to 1080, slammed every visual to max and it ran at around 400FPS. That's some solid programming considering it's 15 years old.
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Nov 14, 2020 10:05
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:AI doesn't actually mean anything Yes it does, it is intelligence brought about artificially. Skynet is AI, androids in Blade runner are AI, computer game enemies and neural nets aren't.
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Nov 14, 2020 10:08
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yeah and every game is a role playing game if you think about it durrrrrrr
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Nov 14, 2020 10:11
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good ai is "overpowering, but stupid", the fun of fighting against an AI is in using human smarts to overcome a numerical/resource advantage, in strategy games anyway
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Nov 14, 2020 11:18
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I want a koopa to be smart enough to feel fear
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Nov 14, 2020 11:19
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when i play computer games i assume the computer player is fully sentient, like the characters from ReBoot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evNm73xTuZY&t=45s
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Nov 14, 2020 11:57
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Do they get deleted if they lose?
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Nov 14, 2020 12:54
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Flannelette posted:Yes it does, it is intelligence brought about artificially. Skynet is AI, androids in Blade runner are AI, computer game enemies and neural nets aren't. Well, the trouble is you're saying contradictory things there. If you take two light sensors and attach them to wheels, such that more light = more power, where the sensors are connected to the wheels on the opposite side, you'll get a car that chases a light. It appears to be 'intelligent'. All you're calling intelligence there is 'emergent' behaviour, a behaviour that seemed more than the sum of the code. But that's literally all neural nets do. An android or skynet will likely be a bunch of neural nets. I like the AI in legends of runeterra draft mode for providing the options
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Nov 14, 2020 12:58
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We are so loving dumb and primitive we can't even make a brain yet
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Nov 14, 2020 13:03
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Rutibex posted:when i play computer games i assume the computer player is fully sentient, like the characters from ReBoot And now I'm picturing all the AIs meeting in a virtual pub after you're done for the night.
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Nov 14, 2020 13:14
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