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linoleum floors posted:
Let me introduce you to a movie called Doctor Strangelove.
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May 21, 2013 01:24
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What's up with people thinking that (are we still spoiling things?)Kirk coming back from the dead suddenly renders his sacrifice, and every thing he learned over the course of the film meaningless or invalid? Even before he dies, Kirk tells Spock that he now knows he has a long way to go before he is truly the captain the Enterprise needs. Also, it's not like Kirk knew he would be saved by Khan blood when he knocked Scotty out and went into the reactor. Even before that I felt that Kirk was genuinely remorseful over the situation he had gotten the crew into because of his desire for revenge. You can hear it in the way he begs Marcus to spare the crew, and in his voice when he tells that same crew "I'm sorry." Kirk knew he hosed up BIG TIME not listening to Scotty and everyone who tried to warn him that the mission stank of immorality and maybe worse. When they re-christen the Enterprise Kirk literally gives a speech that emphasizes turning inward and looking for peace, and understanding, instead of lashing out and going on the warpath when one is attacked. Don't get me wrong, I think it would have been daring to have Kirk just be dead and I agree with other posters that the final chase scene and Khan blood thing seems tacked on, but I never expected Kirk to stay dead. This is now a blockbuster franchise, after all.
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May 21, 2013 01:35
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I loved every sequence in the movie up to the last 10 minutes. (The "Shuttle to Kronos relationship fight" was fantastic, but the line "Let me speak Klingon to them!" was lame as hell. That doesn't sound like how someone would address a friend, a superior officer, or even just another human being. The last ten minutes featured a faceoff between Spock and Khan, on a FLYING BUS. What does a flying bus have to do with anything? It really, really should've been set at Star Fleet Academy, since the movie was about the morality of the actions taken by Starfleet. It was also weird that Khan, who was set up as undefeatable in combat, was taken on by Spock...and ultimately defeated by "being shot in the back". Not to mention that there was a two week time skip, followed by a one year time skip. After the entire movie seemed to take place within a week or so, it seemed like the "least objectionable" ending, instead of the one that fit the rest of the film. Even the closing quote didn't make sense. "My mentor always told me the Captain's Oath...a 5 year mission..." WHAT? Chris, go back, you skipped a paragraph. Shame it came out the same weekend as Iron Man 3, that's got to hurt the bottom line.
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May 21, 2013 01:46
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bobkatt013 posted:I just rewatched the series and Uhura was hitting on Spock in the show. Well she did until her entire personality got erased and they had to teach her from the ground up. Yeah precisely. It was a thing in TOS that Uhura would occasionally tease Spock a little bit.
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May 21, 2013 01:48
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Alchenar posted:It's a bit hard to suspend disbelief on that point when the film establishes that: It's very simple. The Enterprise is ALWAYS the only ship in the sector. ALWAYS.
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May 21, 2013 02:02
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Golden Bee posted:The last ten minutes featured a faceoff between Spock and Khan, on a FLYING BUS. What does a flying bus have to do with anything? It really, really should've been set at Star Fleet Academy, since the movie was about the morality of the actions taken by Starfleet. It was also weird that Khan, who was set up as undefeatable in combat, was taken on by Spock...and ultimately defeated by "being shot in the back". I don't know how much of this I need to spoiler so I'm going to spoiler it all. Aren't Vulcans supremely strong and athletic? Like even to the point where they're about as strong as a gene-spliced superhuman such as Khan? And it wasn't like Spock was having a field day kicking his butt, they showed Khan resisting the nerve pinch and overall winning the fist fight until he takes about 4 or 5 stun blasts allowing Spock to get some kind of advantage on him.
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May 21, 2013 02:10
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AndyElusive posted:I don't know how much of this I need to spoiler so I'm going to spoiler it all. Yes
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May 21, 2013 02:12
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Yeah, Vulcan has a thinner atmosphere and higher gravity. Also, everywhere is an active volcano. Stands to reason vulcans are stronger than your factory-standard human.
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May 21, 2013 02:15
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Kirk also did not use the two handed back punch, and that is why he lost.
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May 21, 2013 02:23
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This movie was really loud and fast-paced and the more I think about the story, the less satisfying it feels. It definitely feels like a step down from the prior installment. But it was entertaining.
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May 21, 2013 02:43
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bobkatt013 posted:Kirk also did not use the two handed back punch, and that is why he lost. When they make the third movie, they better have him use the flying burrito technique.
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May 21, 2013 02:49
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It's just not Star Trek without the blatantly visible stunt guy stand-ins.
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May 21, 2013 03:14
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bobkatt013 posted:Kirk also did not use the two handed back punch, and that is why he lost.
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May 21, 2013 03:21
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Saw the movie yesterday. After reading this thread and others without spoilers I braced myself for a lackluster showing. However I enjoyed the movie. It is not perfect but frankly probably about as good as you can get for a mainstream Star Trek movie(though I must wonder what a Nolan Star Trek would be like). Not sure how much it was discussed but I liked much of Giancchino's soundtrack for the first film and some of his other works and believe this film also had some nice nuggets which are not bad considering the genre. Anybody who has seen the film, indulge me and listen to this. Even in the future a simple piano conveys emotion. Surely that must garnish some merit? I love how a scifi film like this is scored on on brass, percussion, and woodwind and not some technobeat soundtrack.
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May 21, 2013 03:23
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fenix down posted:Good point! But that leaves you open to shirt-ripping of course. Back punch + shirt rip = instant win
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May 21, 2013 03:23
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Styles Bitchley posted:It is not perfect but frankly probably about as good as you can get for a mainstream Star Trek movie(though I must wonder what a Nolan Star Trek would be like). It wouldn't have FTL drives. In other words, it wouldn't be a Trek movie.
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May 21, 2013 03:27
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I'm a sucker for both film soundtracks and consistency. So while I liked Giacchino's soundtracks to the new Trek films, the consistency nut in me would love some more musical callbacks. Goldsmith's theme and Klingon motif from The Motion Picture especially.
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May 21, 2013 03:30
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Styles Bitchley posted:Saw the movie yesterday. After reading this thread and others without spoilers I braced myself for a lackluster showing. However I enjoyed the movie. It is not perfect but frankly probably about as good as you can get for a mainstream Star Trek movie(though I must wonder what a Nolan Star Trek would be like). The spoilers to me looked like a bigger deal in accidental mouse overs than they were in the movie itself. The various callbacks aren't entirely great but the film works either way. I still consider the main title music for ST09 to be one of the best cues of the modern era.
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May 21, 2013 03:35
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Wasn't there some sort of Vulcan Kung Fu? Wasn't this in the first film when he was a kid? I was expecting more out of that other then bar room brawling.
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May 21, 2013 04:03
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TheBigBudgetSequel posted:Also: I wish things had gone more this way: Cumberbatch isn't Khan, but is one of the Botany Bay cryo people, and all his actions are to free Khan, and continue their work. I would have enjoyed that more. From a million pages ago but "this." There's no reason that Admiral Robocop had to walk up to the same pod and easily could have thawed out another Augment superman named John Harrison. That would have been awesome, actually, and then no matter how badass he is we'd be terrified to discover that Khan is still out there and an even bigger badass than Harrison. Perfect setup for a sequel down the road and doesn't trigger spergrage like this.
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May 21, 2013 04:14
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Odoyle posted:From a million pages ago but "this." There's no reason that Admiral Robocop had to walk up to the same pod and easily could have thawed out another Augment superman named John Harrison. That would have been awesome, actually, and then no matter how badass he is we'd be terrified to discover that Khan is still out there and an even bigger badass than Harrison. Perfect setup for a sequel down the road and doesn't trigger spergrage like this. Unless you're bored of supermen and you don't want to turn Star Trek 3 into Pirates of the Caribbean 3.
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May 21, 2013 04:19
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computer parts posted:Unless you're bored of supermen and you don't want to turn Star Trek 3 into Pirates of the Caribbean 3.
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May 21, 2013 04:23
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Strange Matter posted:Heck they could have just said that one of the differences in this timeline is that Harrison gets defrosted instead of Khan, and but since all of the supermen are pretty much unstoppably freaks he's just as dangerous. Yeah, but that doesn't really solve the problem. If you mention Khan at all and never show him, you set up people wanting him for a future villain or give them massive blue balls. If you don't mention him, then you've got one of the more iconic factions from TOS, but taken away the iconic leader, and people would be criticizing the film for doing that. Basically, if your end goal is "I want to cover everything about genetically enhanced people in one movie" then the antagonist has to be Khan.
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May 21, 2013 04:45
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Golden Bee posted:Shame it came out the same weekend as Iron Man 3, that's got to hurt the bottom line. I think you have your timelines mixed up. Iron Man 3 came out two weeks earlier. enough time for Kirk to die and be brought back to life
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May 21, 2013 04:54
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AndyElusive posted:I don't know how much of this I need to spoiler so I'm going to spoiler it all. Spock also had to rip a bit off the ship and beat Khan with that to do any real damage, which was a nice callback to Space Seed where Kirk does the same thing.
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May 21, 2013 06:23
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To answer a few questions: Q: Why didn't the other Federation ships help them out? A: Help who out? It's two Federation ships duking it out with each other, and then in the space of 15-20 min, it all resolves itself. Both comms are down also, btw. Keeping in mind that it's stupid and slightly racist to say that black = evil Q: Why didn't they just use one of Kahn's friends' blood to revive Kirk? A: McCoy discovers the fact that Kahn's blood has restorative properties WHILE Spock is chasing him down, and Kahn's blood is the only blood that we know for certain has said properties. Maybe the others have it. Maybe they don't. Also, it would kind of destroy nearly all the character development if Spock just destroys Kahn in a rage.
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May 21, 2013 06:32
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Guilty posted:To answer a few questions: Also, the movie started with the captain and first officer of every other nearby Starfleet vessel getting shot to bits, something I doubt was fixed by the time Kirk got back. Add in Admiral Banzai most likely having the authority to order a stand down/"Kirk has gone rogue" (which would be SO hard to sell to everyone after he just got over being busted down to cadet), and it makes perfect sense.
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May 21, 2013 07:29
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My only real question at this point is why, in the name of all that is holy, out of all the action scenes in movie history, WHY would you quote Godfather Part III? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJRVOvho_RA
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May 21, 2013 07:37
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This film is perfect for a guy like me, who never really loved Star Trek and whose only favorite Star Trek movie is The Wrath of Khan. Because I never revisit that, Star Trek Into Darkness serves up a delightful inversion of my hazy recollection of the only Star Trek film I really, really liked. As such, I'm impervious to its flaws. To me, this was the perfect second half to the '09 reboot — just as good, with an emphasis on cutting back on the cheese that keeps me at arm's length from every pre-Abrams iteration of Star Trek. Let's hope the summer blockbuster streak, which began with an Iron Man 3 that I liked far more than I expected, continues with Fast 6.
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May 21, 2013 08:21
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Outlaw Vern reviews it, had the same reaction I didquote:Party’s over, though. Trekkos want their poo poo back. I’ve heard complaints from fans about the new ones not being truly in the spirit of the old movies and syndicated tv series. I mean it seems weird to be mad at the filmatists for having fun things happen instead of just people having long conversations in one room while looking at a screen with a picture of space and then walking down a hallway and then going back to the first room, but I do think they’re probly semi-legitimate grievances. STAR TREK did carve out its own niche where it’s different from the other shows, and is about explorers and talking and philosophy or whatever. So maybe some of the new movies shouldn’t be about fighting an evil warlord. And if you guys all agree you want to go back to the approach they had for the previous 20 years then I’m fine going back to only watching one every six or seven years and then saying “Yeah, that was fine I guess. James Cromwell is always good.” Overthinking It also just did a long podcast on the movie.
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May 21, 2013 09:56
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AndyElusive posted:You played the video game? You poor, poor soul. I have. I'm about 80% through it, I paid $2 to Redbox to do so, and eh, I've been having fun. v  v The Gorn look pretty cool.With the new direction and success of the JJ-Trek movies, a game should be so easy to put together. Instead, we get a 5/10 (at best).
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May 21, 2013 10:22
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I honestly cannot believe some of the negativity people are directing towards this film. For instance: people saying that it is thematically muddled, or without a central message, or what have you. The central theme or question is "How we deal with the concept of death defines us." Kirk will not allow Spock to die, and is willing to break all of the most important rules of Starfleet to save his life and those of his crew. Uhura tells Spock that he is selfish for facing death without emotion, and he responds with a beautiful soliloquy on why he cannot allow himself to become emotional in the face of death, not again. Khan takes this to the extreme, believing his crew to have been killed and lashing out at those responsible. Christ, the film is called "Into Darkness", it isn't hard to work out the theme. The most important example of this is Kirk's reaction to his own death, and I am shocked to read that people felt that Kirk experienced no character growth throughout this film. Christopher Pine as Kirk is equal if not better to Shatner at playing the character of Kirk, and with his growth between these two films he earned the tears he received from me at his death. In the beginning he refuses to see the consequences that his actions have, and goes after Khan without thinking after the attack on Starfleet. He puts his entire crew in severe danger, and gets many crew members killed, and still persists in trusting his gut instincts. This doesn't equal a lack of character growth, it is showing that even after everything he has experienced to the contrary, he still won't admit that he's just a stubborn bastard. Having him in place of Spock in the reactor gives us not just a character reversal but a thematic reversal: in TWOK, Spock made the most logical move by entering the core and saving the crew. Here, we have Kirk holding onto the support structure, using the Kirk dropkick in a brilliant Easter Egg to kick the reactor back together. When Spock goes to him we see that he is finally realising the consequences of his stubborness, and he says "Spock, I'm scared". This is the line I wanted out of Shatner's Kirk throughout the entire run of the series, and it made me feel so bad for him. I suppose that really, it's because I'm a bit of a stubborn bastard myself, and I have been in situations before where I had a realisation that my hard-headedness had led to dire consequences. Zachary Quinto's take of Spock takes Spock at his most interesting and amplifies it. I love having a young Spock who is not in firm control of his emotions, but one where emotions are seething just below the surface. I never bought in the original series that the Vulcans were an emotional race who were in control of their emotions, they always just seemed like robots. Quinto's Khan yell had far more emotional resonance for me than Kirk's in WOK. Cumberbatch's Khan is better than Montelbahn's. I watched Space Seed and Wrath of Khan in the lead-up to seeing this one, and I was shocked at how uncompelling I found him in WOK. Space Seed is up there as one of my favorite episodes, but in WOK I find him to be a dull scenery-chewer. His lifting of Chekov with one arm is dwarfed by Cumberbatch's "beating" at the hands of Kirk of Qo'Nos as far as showing his physical superiority (not to mention his beating of the guards on the Venegence). As far as people who are saying that he was only a physical villain, WOK's Khan outsmarted Kirk (which isn't exactly a difficult task). STID's Khan out-logiced Spock, and the line about cold corpses in the trailer that I hated turned out to be a wonderful punctuation to his trumping of Spock. Minor comment, but I loved how the Klingons were handled. Uhura's delivery of the Klingon dialogue sounded intimidating and impressive, just as Klingon should, and their re-packaging of space-faring Somali pirates really works for me. Loved the dropship style, and as my partner noticed, how their surrounding of the shuttle was exactly like in the Kobayashi Maru. Another area in which this movie excelled over WOK is in the humor department. There were so many little touches and hilarious dialogue that I had a grin on my face the entire time. Kirk: "Are you two going to be able to work together on this?" Uhura: "Definitely." *storms off* Spock: "...Unclear". Another: Kirk: "Oh my god, are you guys fighting?......what is that even like?" As far as little touches, the best example I can think of is during the lead-in to the spaceshot between the two vessels, when Kirk and Khan are standing in the airlock. Khan gets down into a little crouch, and a couple of seconds later Kirk sheepishly imitates him. Were there plot-holes or scenes I didn't like? Yes. As I didn't find Khan in WOK very compelling as above, I hated the scene with Old Spock acting like Khan had been that big a deal. Had his death been at Khan's hands I could have understood his reaction, but really what did Khan do to deserve the "greatest threat the Enterprise ever faced" moniker? Also, I agree that the distances in space were not conveyed accurately. When we went from space battle to suddenly falling through Earth's atmosphere, it was jarring and pulled me out of the movie. That being said, Trek has always been full of logic stretches and plotholes, so it didn't bother me that much. All in all, of the Trek movies I have seen, I would put this as second behind TMP, then ST09, then WOK. Action-packed, with emotion and important questions for the audience to boot. Highly entertaining, and I can't wait to see what this crew will do next!
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May 21, 2013 10:38
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I'm not saying that's a bad write-up, but ... I think how many people complain that "the method of travel used in this movie that is violating the laws of physics and is absolutely literally forever in any way impossible moves a bit faster than I think it should" is an interesting observation. It's like, we have a very strong intuition of how fast something should move between places when it's using a means of travel that's many times faster than anything, anything at all, could ever move. Why? People are less concerned about the fact that it's impossible what they're doing, than about the feeling that they're doing the impossible a bit too quickly. And yeah, for some, I know it basically boils down to having gotten a feeling of how quick warp should be from previous movies. But even there, it's absolutely, completely inconsistent. I also think Star Wars has travel speeds that'll move you halfway across the galaxy within hours, so it's not even vaguely consistent across all of scifi.
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May 21, 2013 11:21
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I think this is somewhere where the ol' warp factors would've been handy, geekazoid as the concept kind of is.
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May 21, 2013 11:40
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Cingulate posted:I'm not saying that's a bad write-up, but ... The problem is that the film is edited to make it internally inconsistent. You want to tell me you can do magic? Fine, I believe you. But when you wave the wand and say the magic words and different things happen each time then I'm going to suspect that something is wrong. In the first film it takes a couple of minutes to get from Earth to Vulcan. But if you asked me how long it takes them to get back from Vulcan to Earth I'd say 'several hours' based on all the things that happen in between. Similarly in the first half of the film I thought the trip to Kronos took 'a period of time' that could've been anything up to several days but later it clearly takes seconds. Ships travel at the speed of plot. That's fine. But when the speed of plot constantly changes then it looks like bad pacing and editing. Compare and contrast to The Undiscovered Country, where the Enterprise goes to several places, all at the speed of plot and ships arrive just at the right time (Spock to beam up Kirk, Sulu at Kitomer). But it never feels contrived and there's the same sense of 'it takes time to get from place to place' throughout the film.
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May 21, 2013 12:11
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While not great, I really enjoyed Into Darkness. It had its share of plot holes and questionable moments and was very predictable, but overall it was a pretty good movie. I don't get how people can complain that is not like the old Star Trek movies; its not supposed to be! The last halfway decent Trek movie was First Contact, and in my opinion both the new movies absolutely blow every other Star Trek movie out of the water up to and including WoK.
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May 21, 2013 12:43
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echoplex posted:I am delighted that the stupid loving forklift truck from 09 reappeared in this one. I was looking for it and they delivered. I noticed the poo poo out of that truck, you better bet that I did.
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May 21, 2013 13:20
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Nessus posted:I think this is somewhere where the ol' warp factors would've been handy, geekazoid as the concept kind of is. Yeah, it kind of bugged me that they were all "the Vengeance can't catch up to us at warp!" Yes it can, idiots, it just goes faster warp.
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May 21, 2013 13:22
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Aatrek posted:Yeah, it kind of bugged me that they were all "the Vengeance can't catch up to us at warp!" Yes it can, idiots, it just goes faster warp. Actually I was cool with that, I'd assumed that at this point in JJTrek's timeline the technology just doesn't exist to precisely track down a ship at warp and run it down. There's a shipyard hidden at Saturn and in 2009 the Enterprise is blind until it arrives at Vulcan - sensors are generally not very good and there is consistency that until that point being 'at warp' means you are in a bubble where you can't really see out and people can't really see you.
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May 21, 2013 13:28
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Auron posted:both the new movies absolutely blow every other Star Trek movie out of the water up to and including WoK. As a life long Trek nerd who is old enough to remember when the Star Trek universe consisted solely of TOS and whatever happened at lasts nights game of Star Fleet Battles, I totally agree with you. I probably would have argued with you over TWoK, but after watching it as a prelude to going to the new film, for the first time I really noticed just how awful the acting is. Ricardo is okay but as much as it pains me to admit, everybody else is really phoning it in. I mean I know none of the original crew were Oscar winners, but they were much more on their game by the time they got to The Search for Wales.
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May 21, 2013 13:53
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