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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
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160 | 52.98% |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Our level of political discurse has gotten so hosed up, so shattered, and so morally screwed, that a good amount of people on this very site think anyone who wants to start or run any kind of business are flat out evil. No, I haven't seen this level of hate on this site, in fact, there are tons of goon run small businesses, like that jerky guy.
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May 19, 2017 03:20
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:I'm not a Nihilist I'm just saying, as proven by this thread. Man how did you even find your way here? Your two examples of how "hosed up" our political discourse is are equally relevant to the mid-19th Century. Ever hear of Marx? Or slavery? You don't need to badmouth Reddit to impress me. Just refer to it snarkily and ironically like the rest of us.
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May 19, 2017 03:22
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UHC for everyone but small business owners, imo
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May 19, 2017 03:26
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WampaLord posted:No, I haven't seen this level of hate on this site, in fact, there are tons of goon run small businesses, like that jerky guy. It came up in our previous discussions when I indicated the I believe raising minimum wage universally across the nation to $15 would be damaging to small businesses and a boon to big business. At that point in the conversation people were defending big businesses over small businesses because they can handle a raise in minimum wage better. Never mind the fact that they can handle that raise in minimum wage better because they destroyed and cannabilized everything small business had in this country and the point that they purchased legislation to ensure their profitability via tax loopholes. To me big business is the greatest danger in the history of our country. But people around here start spewing "How dare a company exist if it can't pay it's workers the minimum wage" you know, despite the fact that you're raising it on them. Or That retail is dying as are many cities. Or online competition. Or a thousand other factors affecting a businesses profitability. They pay the same tax rate as big businesses do, but have very little of the advantages large businesses have, and you all seem to act like businesses only serve one value: to make money, e.g. by making profit and distributing it to either it's workers or owners. But that's the most reductionist, capitalistic view of business there can be. Small businesses have inherent value beyond their ability to produce profit and wealth and serve as important anchoring points in our community and culture. And you don't throw them away just because they can't pay the bills. Especially if you're raising their bills. But I guess liberals on here like their local pizza shop run by that old 65 year old italian couple being shut down and replaced with a pizza hut? I loving don't. ISeeCuckedPeople fucked around with this message at 03:30 on May 19, 2017 |
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May 19, 2017 03:28
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small businesses: inherently valuable workers for small businesses: nah
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May 19, 2017 03:34
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flashman posted:UHC for everyone but small business owners, imo 99% tax rate on small business owners.
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May 19, 2017 03:37
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Everyone in inherently valuable. It's a false choice fallacy that you are purporting here, that one can not worry about the effects of raising the minimum wage on small business entities that provide unique character and cultural touchpoints across this nation, and also worry about the millions of people who work for said small businesses. Like I said, gross oversimplification of policy and decision making as well as dilution of argument's into binary moral choices of A or B continues to be a indicator of how fractured and brainwashed Americans are today. We can help small businesses while raising the minimum wage for every American, but that doesn't mean every state or county needs a $15 minimum wage.
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May 19, 2017 03:39
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My pizza may get 1 dollar more expensive so people can not be working and living in poverty. Business taxes are on profits so unless small ma and Pa are actually taking in loads of cash they can just pay themselves and pay income tax rates like everyone else? Why should tax be structured beneficially for them?
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May 19, 2017 03:40
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Everyone in inherently valuable. It's a false choice fallacy that you are purporting here, that one can not worry about the effects of raising the minimum wage on small business entities that provide unique character and cultural touchpoints across this nation, and also worry about the millions of people who work for said small businesses. I agree with you here, in some places it should be higher than 15 dollars you are right.
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May 19, 2017 03:42
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People here are unimpressed by the Small Business Owner mythology that erases the way working people hold up society and is 100% of the time used to secure tax cuts for hedge fund managers. We all like the local spots. I and many others personally admire people who start their own local businesses. We're just not going to stroke our dicks at length about how great entrepreneurs are because their merits are obvious and that kind of stuff always leads to discussions about lazy
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May 19, 2017 03:44
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Along with the fact that the idyllic small business retailer they try to paint a picture of you destroying with your living wage requirements will have the owner or owners as employees.. making any changes to a minimum wage moot for their hours.
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May 19, 2017 03:53
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Mineaiki posted:People here are unimpressed by the Small Business Owner mythology that erases the way working people hold up society and is 100% of the time used to secure tax cuts for hedge fund managers. That's because you haven't lived in a time period or a country where Small Business acts as a vehicle to lift lower class people into the middle class. I pointed out to small business creation in South America as a great generator of income for low wage earners and a vehicle for class mobility. It used to be in America but it was shut off due to the rise of large businesses. flashman posted:I agree with you here, in some places it should be higher than 15 dollars you are right. That is something I have said. In some places it should be higher than 15. In some places it should be lower than $15. It should be pegged to inflation and not adjusted manually by acts of congress as well. flashman posted:My pizza may get 1 dollar more expensive so people can not be working and living in poverty. Business taxes are on profits so unless small ma and Pa are actually taking in loads of cash they can just pay themselves and pay income tax rates like everyone else? Why should tax be structured beneficially for them? Because they are a major method of class mobility and they are being destroyed by competition and face every disadvantage in the book. They do not profit from economies of scale. They're not large enough to insure themselves properly, or take any kind of advantage of mass production or assembly lines and how they increase efficiency. They can't afford taking out life insurance policies on every worker, then profiting on their deaths. They can't force their suppliers to lower their prices by threatening to stop carrying them. Yet they pay the same tax rate as Apple and Google. Often more. Business taxation should be progressive, dependent on revenue and net income as well as number of employees. It's that simple. The playing field must be leveled between small and large business. The system is RIGGED against them by large monopolies and oligarchies. This takes legislation at the local and national level. My goal is to exempt small businesses with certain levels of revenue and net income from local sales tax, and help bring their products down to the same level as large companies. My goal is to cause chaos in the monopolies and shatter them. I want small business to be competitive with the Wal-Marts and Pizza Huts of the world. In fact I want them to put those companies out of business, take their profits, and invest it in their local communities, their owners, and their workers. My goal is to use the state to facilitate this and reverse the trends of this nations business power being centralized in the hands of a few and large cities. I want thriving businesses in every state and city and community from the rural to the big city.
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May 19, 2017 03:54
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readingatwork posted:2 years of Trump and 6 years of Pence is probably more accurate. Nope, it's going to be 8 years of Trump. Impeaching Trump is a pipe dream, much like that hilarious faithless elector campaign. As a matter of fact, trying (and the inevitable failure) would only INCREASE Trump's re-election chances.
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May 19, 2017 03:56
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1. When exactly do you think the rise of big business happened? 2. What if I told you the point of this system is not for people to move between classes?
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May 19, 2017 03:57
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Mineaiki posted:1. When exactly do you think the rise of big business happened? The rise of big business occured with the collapse of trust busting and new deal policies that reigned them in. It's been going on for the past 20-30 years if not longer. It's called reaganomics for a reason.
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May 19, 2017 04:03
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WampaLord posted:If the worst problem we have is fed and cared for people who don't feel "content" I'd say we've done pretty well. a friend of mine framed fighting for socialism as "turning the existential terror of today into the mundane inconveniences of tomorrow" and while it doesn't make a great slogan there's a lot of truth to it
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May 19, 2017 04:03
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:The rise of big business occured with the collapse of trust busting and new deal policies that reigned them in. It's been going on for the past 20-30 years if not longer. It's called reaganomics for a reason. Someone tell this guy about the Vanderbilts.
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May 19, 2017 04:08
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Why the gently caress would we subsidize someone so they can mimic Wal marts sell crap model and "move up a class" while depressing workers wages at the same time. What happened to the innovative entrepreneur, we can't think of better small businesses than crappy appliances and shampoo or what. By default a minimum raise hike makes a sole proprietor grocer or whatever you have envisioned more competitive with Wal Mart anyway. Their costs are unaffected by any increase.
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May 19, 2017 04:10
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:That is something I have said. In some places it should be higher than 15. In some places it should be lower than $15. It should be pegged to inflation and not adjusted manually by acts of congress as well. Why not just have a basic income and then you don't even need to pay minimum wage. You could have employees for $1/hour!
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May 19, 2017 04:20
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flashman posted:Why the gently caress would we subsidize someone so they can mimic Wal marts sell crap model and "move up a class" while depressing workers wages at the same time. What happened to the innovative entrepreneur, we can't think of better small businesses than crappy appliances and shampoo or what. See but if those workers wanted to make more money they'd just innovate and be entrepreneurs and create jobs. Going from being a bourgeois leach to being a bourgeois leach is not what I'd call mobility.
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May 19, 2017 04:22
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I support small business. Round up the poor and put them to work for small businesses for nothing.
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May 19, 2017 04:29
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Giving small business owners prima nocta rights with their employees' wives* will encourage job creation and entrepreneurship. E: *and husbands, I'm a believer in equal opportunity
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May 19, 2017 04:31
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Safety regulations are a big business plot to destroy small businesses that need to chain exits shut from the outside to stop unauthorized breaks and cut janitorial costs by letting combustible materials build up underneath machinery.
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May 19, 2017 04:34
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Peg small business taxes negatively to inflation, they can't afford this burden..
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May 19, 2017 04:37
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Should seniors be forced to work beyond retirement age to keep wages low for American small business? Or should they be rendered down to a nutrient slurry and and fed to small business' labor force through IVs to eliminate profit-destroying lunch breaks (fun fact: lunch was invented by Target and Discount Tire in 1978 to cripple small business)
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May 19, 2017 04:37
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Big Business (est. 1980) lobbied for businesses to have bathrooms instead of making their employees hold their pee for the duration of their 14-hour work day. A malicious plot to destroy small business.
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May 19, 2017 04:49
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Like I said you can't talk to you people without having everything turned into a slippery slope arguement. It can go two ways but I'm not going to turn to petty stupidity just because I want to win on a internet arguement. Like I said, nothing I have stated is incompatible with increasing wages for most american workers.
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May 19, 2017 04:54
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i agree with the brazilian legislature's proposal to reform labor laws to allow businesses flexibility in employee compensation. Requiring payment in wages from businesses is too onerous and cumbersome, rewarding laborers with food and shelter is much more efficient in reducing the waste that arises from laborers spending on things they don't need.
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May 19, 2017 04:56
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:Like I said you can't talk to you people without having everything turned into a slippery slope arguement. Actually the last time you brought this up you said we can't increase wages for anyone because if minimum wage only applied to big businesses then they'd steal all the best workers from small business and kill small business that way. But big business doesn't do this now because actually raising wages would make big business lose market share. When I pointed out this was contradictory and you were simultaneously arguing that higher wages either helped or hurt big businesses depending what what was convenient for your argument at the time, you refused to address it and ran away. That's why I'm just making fun of you now.
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May 19, 2017 05:02
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VitalSigns posted:Actually the last time you brought this up you said we can't increase wages for anyone because if minimum wage only applied to big businesses then they'd steal all the best workers from small business and kill small business that way. But big business doesn't do this now because actually raising wages would make big business lose market share. Stop misquoting me and twisting my words. I said we couldn't wage minimum wages for big business and not small business and that stands ever relevant and true. Also I didn't run away I got suspended. I had a response typed up and everything.
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May 19, 2017 05:10
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Then why doesn't big business just collude to raise wages among themselves right now. It's a win-win for them according to you, they'd all gain market share once they kill small business with such an evil plot to pay full-time workers a wage that allows them to survive and feed and house their families take their kids to the doctor.
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May 19, 2017 05:13
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VitalSigns posted:Then why doesn't big business just collude to raise wages among themselves right now. You do realize Wal-Mart and a lot of big businesses lined up behind Hillary and her plan to raise wages right? And Big business has been raising wages. Wal-Mart raised it at the beginning of last year and are likely to raise it again in the second or third quarter of this year. Other retail stores are mostly busy struggling to survive. But wages have been increasing at a lot of the larger companies to some extent lately. ISeeCuckedPeople fucked around with this message at 05:28 on May 19, 2017 |
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May 19, 2017 05:25
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HRC had ties to Walmart from before. That's why they gave her money--they wanted a stooge in the White House. They're still completely interested in the lowest possible minimum wage. Their current system uses government assistance to make their low wages workable and keep people able to work for them. Unfortunately, small business are the same, just less coordinated.
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May 19, 2017 05:30
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Hillary was against the $15 minimum wage though. She specifically fought against it during the primaries. Nobody seriously believed that she would fight for $15 in office, just like nobody seriously believed her magical conversion on TPP either. Of course big business supported a corporate Democrat. Wal-Mart isn't paying $15 and fights against it everywhere it has been proposed. Anyway if your position is that $15/hr is a big business plot to kill small business then you're hosed no matter what because nothing stops Wal-Mart from instituting a dastardly living wage anytime they choose so your best bet is to vote on the basis of other policies like fair trade deals and antitrust that would actually help small businesses against monopoly power. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 05:38 on May 19, 2017 |
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May 19, 2017 05:35
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Mineaiki posted:HRC had ties to Walmart from before. That's why they gave her money--they wanted a stooge in the White House. They're still completely interested in the lowest possible minimum wage. Wal-mart currently pays entering associates $10 a hour after raising wages $1 last year, and raises wages another $1 for their associates at the 3 month level than another the $6. They are probably likely to raise wages again this year as they just made a record profit. quote:Their legislation, dubbed the Raise the Wage Act, would gradually raise the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour, increasing it from its current level of $7.25 an hour to $9.20 an hour once it’s passed and then adding about a dollar a year for seven years until it gets to $15. It would rise automatically after that as the country’s median wages rose. So Wal-Mart already has wages higher than the $15 Wage Act would require. And have until next year to raise it another $1. Now they could not, but seeing how the new president has made raising wages kind of one of the central part of his strategy, they totally could. So exactly what world is it where Wal-Mart is paying the lowest possible minimum wage?
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May 19, 2017 05:37
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ISeeCuckedPeople posted:But I guess liberals on here like their local pizza shop run by that old 65 year old italian couple being shut down and replaced with a pizza hut? I'm just gonna explicity say that I would rather have a bunch of Pizza Huts where employees are getting paid $15/hr with benefits than a bunch of family-run pizza restaurants with people making $9/hr or whatever. I mean, not that this comparison is remotely realistic in the first place. Like, you do realize that most small businesses would not collapse if the minimum wage was raised, right? Using your logic, if we decreased the minimum wage it would result in an explosion of new small businesses, but this is clearly absurd and ridiculous because the number of businesses and products produced is related to demand, not supply. edit: Your political views resemble those of a 18-23 year old who briefly glanced at the American political landscape and said "rah stupid people on all sides I'm an independent who realizes everyone is bad!" If you are over the age of about 23 these are some pretty embarrassing views. It's sort of like the political equivalent of coming into a relationships thread and talking about the Ladder Theory. edit2: Actually, I'm gonna give an honest response to the part of your argument that actually has some validity. You are correct that large, powerful businesses are a problem (sometimes), but the solution is certainly not to decrease/eliminate the minimum wage. It is for the government to step up anti-trust enforcement and punish (or otherwise disencentivise) behavior on the part of large corporations that drives away small businesses. What you're advocating will just result in a race to the bottom where everyone loses (except for those at the very top). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 05:49 on May 19, 2017 |
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May 19, 2017 05:43
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Ytlaya posted:Using your logic, if we decreased the minimum wage it would result in an explosion of new small businesses The most American small business of all is a plantation 
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May 19, 2017 05:47
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If you're seriously arguing that small businesses can't survive without treating employees like garbage, and not paying them a fair wage, then destroy all small businesses forever. Being a Plucky Little Underdog Mom And Pop store is zero excuse for underpaying or exploiting employees. QQ will someone please think of the plantation owners QQ
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May 19, 2017 06:01
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There sonething totally pathetic about giving a Tear Jerking Story, about how sad people getting paid a living wage makes you, or justifying your heinous poo poo on the grounds of 'people are evil' amd 'idle hands are the devils tools'. No retard, you are evil, as evidenced by your callous disregard of people's basic welfare. Your fake nihilism is nothing but a smokescreen for your malicious, greedy, and anti-social psychology. Its just a sweet nothing you can tell yourself, while you dream of horrors you can inflict on the powerless.
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May 19, 2017 06:15
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I agree that idle hands do the devil's work. 100% inheritance tax. 90% tax rate on incomes above $200,000/yr. Nationalize the means of production. No longer may the children of the rich escape their socially necessary labor time 
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May 19, 2017 06:25
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