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Samuel posted:Is this what you want senators?! ##Voting A
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Aug 1, 2014 17:50
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Samuel posted:Is this what you want senators?! This is fantastic, by the way. I've added it to the OP art section!
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Aug 1, 2014 17:55
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sniper4625 posted:How cavalier you are! The decades of strife, the righteous rebellion of the people of the Empire, the likely thousands upon thousands of dead...none of these matter? You embrace progress at all costs, but progress is not virtuous in and of itself. We are surrounded by enemies, rebuilding from terrible wars, and already struggling to keep up in many areas. Dedicating all the resources of the state to a foolish desire to ape the Ming will only see us fall further behind. AJ_Impy posted:That's just it: Not only are we forsaking our many creeds, the three languages by which we advance in favour of the dictation of one as supreme over all, but we are consigning ourselves to wallow in Ming's sludge, denying ourselves our future that way. There is nothing forward-thinking about this move, nothing that will help us progress. It is regressive in the extreme, and will set back our advance decades, possibly centuries.  The Inclusionists  Gurgen II Qutuzid Nonsense! You're both acting as if we're tearing everything out and replacing it anew! We're building upon the foundation that is Byzantine Rome! From the Senate and the three Committees we build something greater, far grander than anything ever seen in Roman history! To our three Lingua Academica we add a fourth, getting knowledge from the far east just as we have done from the near west and the near east when we adopted Latin and Arabic. We do as Rome have always done: We adapt! Wherever we go we learn just as well as we teach.
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Aug 1, 2014 17:56
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Rincewind posted:By the same token, a vote to Sinicize isn't necessarily a vote to throw our entire history and culture in the trash can and become Ming China in the West. For one thing, our main influences would be the Hui-Turkish-Arabic-Persian-Andalusian-German-Spanish-etc. cultural melting pots near us, like Yilang, Ao Di Li, Da Qin, et al. But also, I'd say that what emerged on the other side of, say, the Meiji Restoration, while hugely transformed, was still recognizable as Japan. This would be a hugely different process for hugely different reasons in a hugely different time period, but I feel like that aspect would be comparable. So, Sinicising for us might simply simulate more power being transferred from the nobility to the bureaucracy? Thus allowing for a more efficient system of government with the Empress and Senate at its head? With the increase in technological progress also coming from the fact that such a change would effectively break the nobilities monopoly on power in many parts of the country, allowing more innovative and brilliant people to rise from the obscurity of serfdom or service to petty and decadent noble houses and into the arms of an Empire that supports and encourages innovation and excellence in service to the Empire from all the many and varied peoples of said Empire?
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Aug 1, 2014 18:03
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Luhood posted:
The trouble is, people acting as if you're tearing everything out and replacing it anew is the political reality that choosing the path of sinicisation will bring. Civil war and upheaval on a massive scale, Roman killing Roman over a pointless struggle. By all means, add the fourth language, but just as we did not blindly follow the Arabian nations when we added Arabic, let us not blindly scrabble through China's scraps when we do so. Learning from them, by all means, but it needs to be additive, not supplanting. We have made substantial progress with our great universities: The brave Romans, educated in the wisdom accumulated over time and distance should be serving the nation, not spilling their blood in the decades of conflict that would accompany this capitulation of our culture.
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Aug 1, 2014 18:08
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Luhood posted:
 Isn't it? Isn't "Sinicizing" accepting that the worms of Cathay are our betters, utterly superior to us, so much so that only in imitation we will have a chance in this new world? Bah! Qutuzid, you are now, as your line has ever been, a coward, a traitor, and a fool! Licking China's boots will not simply be adding another academy, but it will change our government, our our creed, the very nature of our civilization, on their lines! Qutuzid, even with all the minorities you so cherish (even as you condemn them tohellfire), we are our own: the way ahead must be one built with our own hands and tools! Why would we do this? We have just shown the might of Christendom against the traitor kings of Spain! Imagine what else we might do! Lord Cyrahzax fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 18:09
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  Bah, Rome can progress in its own way and triumph! I think we're plenty powerful at the moment
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Aug 1, 2014 18:11
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BwenGun posted:So, Sinicising for us might simply simulate more power being transferred from the nobility to the bureaucracy? Thus allowing for a more efficient system of government with the Empress and Senate at its head? With the increase in technological progress also coming from the fact that such a change would effectively break the nobilities monopoly on power in many parts of the country, allowing more innovative and brilliant people to rise from the obscurity of serfdom or service to petty and decadent noble houses and into the arms of an Empire that supports and encourages innovation and excellence in service to the Empire from all the many and varied peoples of said Empire?  In other words, toss out the Douxes. Vote A and you get rid of them once and for all. Do you folks really want to keep them around for another few hundred years? After the centuries the Senate spent trying to wrestle power from them and put it in the more capable hands of our Emperors, Empresses, and Senators? By matching China's technological progress now, we won't have to suffer the humiliation of being bested by it later. We keep that which makes us Roman while improving the state. With God as my witness, know that it's either now or later. And later will come with my lineage saying "You should have listened."
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Aug 1, 2014 18:39
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 Except option B also explicitly results in government reform. The doux are gone for good, either way, so that's not a point in favor of A.
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Aug 1, 2014 18:46
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NewMars posted:
Does it? I thought option B was just status quo?
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Aug 1, 2014 18:52
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Romans, please! This country, this Senate, has a long history of embracing the foreign cultures it conquers and recognising the benefit they have brought to Rome. Did not Augustus himself embrace the Greek philosophies and Eastern mysticisms which his contemporaries disdained and lead Rome to glory? Did we not stay Roman? When we reconquered the false state of Rum, and took the Sunni peoples it contained into our hearts, did we not stay Roman? The road Rome walks to glory has long been one of taking inspiration from others and using it to become better and greater than those we were inspired by. Sinicization is the next step on this road! Edit as if it wasn't obvious, ##Vote A Not So Fast fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 18:53
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NewMars posted:
Where exactly are you reading that? Option B is to stick with the current government. quote:If it fails, the incoming Senate will be the stewards of centuries of Byzantine tradition and advocates of a uniquely Near Western form of governance. We will stay as a Byzantine Empire, Senators, Douxes, and all.
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Aug 1, 2014 18:54
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StrifeHira posted:Do you folks really want to keep them around for another few hundred years? Yes, because the slow and convoluted process of modernity crushing tradition is more interesting to watch than one vote banishing then (which I doubt option A even really does).
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Aug 1, 2014 18:54
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The Imperial Exam System has already defanged the Doukes. They are little more than regional bureaucrats now and there is nothing more to be gained by tossing them out other than change for the sake of change.
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Aug 1, 2014 18:55
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The Doukes aren't gone, but they are defanged since they don't have access to personal armies anymore. (Also, because we are playing EU4 and not CK2) The Senate will be free to take additional actions against the doukes whether A or B wins.
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Aug 1, 2014 19:01
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How long will the vote last?
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Aug 1, 2014 19:11
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A few decades ago, Luo Guanzhong wrote what I have no doubt will some day be considered the greatest book ever written, the Sanguoyanyi or The Romance of the Three Kingdoms. There is a parable in it for the decision we face. Liu Bei was at this point merely a garrison commander in his cousin Liu Biao's territory of Jingzhou. Liu Bei may have been recognized as Imperial Uncle by the Son of Heaven, but the emperor's cruel oppression by his minister Cao Cao prevented Liu Bei from receiving the benefits of that honor. One day, after Liu Bei survived an assassination attempt at a banquet by riding his horse across an apparently impassable stream, he met a sage named Master Water Mirror who instructed him to seek out two sagacious advisors if he wanted to prosper. Liu Bei determined that one of these sages was Zhuge Liang Kongming, the sleeping dragon. Liu Bei proved so determined to gain the aid of Zhuge Liang that he ascended the mountain on which Zhuge Liang lived not once, not twice, but thrice, and on the third occasion waited outside for hours while the sage slept. He addressed the sage, a boy of not yet 30 years of age, as one would a man who has reached advanced age. His respect and deference to the sage won Zhuge Liang Kongming over to advise the Imperial Uncle. We are Liu Bei. We have a proud title and a noble pedigree, and for that reason it is difficult to prostrate ourselves before the sages and ask for their advice. We must resist the folly of that false pride and recruit the sleeping dragon. Though he may, as Zhuge Liang did, initially create discord, the proof is in the results.
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Aug 1, 2014 19:57
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Did not Liu Bei also cast down his own son and heir, leading to a man stunted in mind and body? Not exactly someone to aspire to. You would have us throw down our child, the Roman Empire, to embrace the Ming. OOC: Pro watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqpEfF6B0ds&t=338s
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Aug 1, 2014 20:01
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The Roman Empire is founded on a proud tradition of throwing away babies.
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Aug 1, 2014 20:06
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Luo Guanzhong isn't that bad, but he's no Εὐστάθιος Μακρεμβολίτης. Give me The Story of Hysmine and Hysminias any day over that tale of squabbling Doukes. They had even less respect for their Emperor than our own doukes for ours!
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Aug 1, 2014 20:10
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Patter Song posted:A few decades ago, Luo Guanzhong wrote what I have no doubt will some day be considered the greatest book ever written, the Sanguoyanyi or The Romance of the Three Kingdoms. There is a parable in it for the decision we face. Liu Bei was at this point merely a garrison commander in his cousin Liu Biao's territory of Jingzhou. Liu Bei may have been recognized as Imperial Uncle by the Son of Heaven, but the emperor's cruel oppression by his minister Cao Cao prevented Liu Bei from receiving the benefits of that honor. One day, after Liu Bei survived an assassination attempt at a banquet by riding his horse across an apparently impassable stream, he met a sage named Master Water Mirror who instructed him to seek out two sagacious advisors if he wanted to prosper. Liu Bei determined that one of these sages was Zhuge Liang Kongming, the sleeping dragon. Liu Bei proved so determined to gain the aid of Zhuge Liang that he ascended the mountain on which Zhuge Liang lived not once, not twice, but thrice, and on the third occasion waited outside for hours while the sage slept. He addressed the sage, a boy of not yet 30 years of age, as one would a man who has reached advanced age. His respect and deference to the sage won Zhuge Liang Kongming over to advise the Imperial Uncle. And a lovely story this is, but we are not mere children, to be swayed by a childish parable. We are senators, men of reason, our opinions should be based on philosophy and logic. So I present to you the works of western philosophy, the great sage plato (who lived here, in the west, I shall have you know). The work in question: The First Alcibiades. The story of a young prince and an old mentor, just as yours is. This is the story of Socrates, the old mentor and Alcibiades, the young prince, rich in inheritance and power. It begins with a discourse on the nature of justice, in which young Alcibiades is humiliated into admitting he knows nothing. But he does not learn, instead he comes to glorify in his ignorance, until he is frightened by the power of Sparta and Persia, but this fear is only a tool used by the old man. He uses it in order to provoke him into admitting his shortcomings, so that he may learn from this. But he does not aspire to make him go to these far-off enemies for the required knowledge. No, he wishes to show him that he must learn himself and must learn to find those who will stay with him, no matter what, as allies. For he must learn to be good to rule and to be wise is to be virtuous. He is us. Our inheritance is great, as are our enemies. We must find within ourselves a mentoring, not from outside. We must not dally with faraway empires that shall grant us a passing joy, only to leave us in the summer. No, we must learn from our works, reclaim what is forgotten and develop an identity and a knowledge all our own. That is what we must aspire to. We cannot know anything if we do not know ourselves and we cannot rule anything if we cannot do so with justice and fairness. Taking from others will bring us nothing that lasts.
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Aug 1, 2014 20:18
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Do not sinicise, for the love of all that is good and holy.
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Aug 1, 2014 20:33
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Samuel posted:Is this what you want senators?! Yes. That's loving rad as hell.
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Aug 1, 2014 20:44
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The question is not whether we want to Sinicise, but whether we even can Sinicise. Aside from throwing our state into disarray for potentially decades, with an incapacity to effectively implement many administrative and political functions (not to mention the reactionaries and other dissenters that will rise en masse to threaten us), we will ultimately turn ourselves into a virtually helpless target for our neighbours. Our forces will fall behind if we devote the focus of our government to setting up the Chinese technological infrastructure essential to a developmentally adaptive army, let alone the subsequent investiture of the nation's military resources needed to then arm our troops with the latest arms and command doctrine. Da Qin, France, Kiev -- all will pounce on us as we struggle to "modernise" our military, we whom are intentionally dismantling it in preparation for more refined Eastern conventions that will take who knows how many years for our government to manifest the capability for implementation. Put more simply, our military will stagnate in its current level of technological refinement for potentially decades due to the investiture of government resources into scientific and educational infrastructure, among other affairs; all while those that surround us become more advanced month by month. I commend the Empress for rightfully adopting a martial focus in these troubled and warlike times, but she has taken an entirely misguided approach to the matter of securing the Roman future. What we need most is to use our existing military assets to secure our European borders by any means necessary; alliances, of course, are essential in such affairs, and if we have no other recourse, we must turn to the European Muslims and Catholics to help us seize the rest of Italy and to dissuade France and Kiev. In the end, though, that is but a goal for the briefest future. Our long-term ambitions -- perhaps even the destinies of our nation -- lay centred round Da Qin and the Middle East. We will never know peace until that upstart state borne of powerhungry warmongers is destroyed in its entire, and thus we are behooved to undermine and dismantle it at every turn. Perhaps then, secure and stable, we may turn once more to the matter of aping the Ming.
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Aug 1, 2014 20:50
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Samuel posted:Is this what you want senators?! ##Vote A. I want to see what kind of Rome appears on the other end, frankly.
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Aug 1, 2014 21:06
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 Patter Song mcclay LJN92 StrifeHira WilliamAnderson Akratic Method RZApublican GSD Night10194 Ghetto Prince Caustic Soda LordGugs Rubix Squid Meinberg Horsebanger Luhood Blackunknown Frozen_flame Sindai Raserys Hutter ThatBasqueGuy Not So Fast Juvenalian.Satyr Total: 24 sniper4625 Lord Cyrahzax Mantis42 AJ_Impy inscrutable horse Tevery Best Hitlers Gay Secret Dire Wombat YF-23 TheMcD Flesnolk Kor NewMars Samuel BwenGun WeaponGradeSadness HiHo ChiRho Vagon Sparq Pyroi Erwin the German Aeromancia Technowolf ZearothK Gnooble Beerdeer Sky Shadowing dongsbot 9000 Unwise_Cashew Zikan GunnerJ Rejected Fate Lynneth Total: 33 I will probably be closing the vote tonight unless that gap narrows and the vote gets closer. Parties changing leaders, try to, um, figure that out?
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Aug 1, 2014 21:32
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StrifeHira posted:Not gonna lie, that looks pretty drat cool. Badass painting of an eagle with the banner of the Old Romans above it, a picture of Constantine and the symbol of Constantinople on the right. So, yes. Hell yes. I actually used a picture of Ammon Zeus AKA Alexander the great to represent the Greek part of our empire. 
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Aug 1, 2014 21:39
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Patter Song posted:A few decades ago, Luo Guanzhong wrote what I have no doubt will some day be considered the greatest book ever written, the Sanguoyanyi or The Romance of the Three Kingdoms. There is a parable in it for the decision we face. Liu Bei was at this point merely a garrison commander in his cousin Liu Biao's territory of Jingzhou. Liu Bei may have been recognized as Imperial Uncle by the Son of Heaven, but the emperor's cruel oppression by his minister Cao Cao prevented Liu Bei from receiving the benefits of that honor. One day, after Liu Bei survived an assassination attempt at a banquet by riding his horse across an apparently impassable stream, he met a sage named Master Water Mirror who instructed him to seek out two sagacious advisors if he wanted to prosper. Liu Bei determined that one of these sages was Zhuge Liang Kongming, the sleeping dragon. Liu Bei proved so determined to gain the aid of Zhuge Liang that he ascended the mountain on which Zhuge Liang lived not once, not twice, but thrice, and on the third occasion waited outside for hours while the sage slept. He addressed the sage, a boy of not yet 30 years of age, as one would a man who has reached advanced age. His respect and deference to the sage won Zhuge Liang Kongming over to advise the Imperial Uncle. So you want us to carve out the weakest realm in the land by being dicks to our allies and endlessly belligerent to our foes? And engage in repeated failed military campaigns that prolong chaos in the land motivated mostly out of spite and our own egos, until we are inevitably crushed like the annoying flies we are? No thanks.
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Aug 1, 2014 21:52
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##Vote A Senators! Let me say this. Former generations did not follow the same doctrines, so what antiquity should one imitate? The emperors and kings did not copy one another, so what rites should one follow? I say: 'There is more than one way to govern the world and there is no necessity to imitate antiquity, in order to take appropriate measures for the state.' Saint Constantine the Great, Alexios Komnenos, Iouliana the Great and Saint Valeria succeeded in attaining supremacy without following antiquity, and as for the downfall of Yaroslavovich and Branas - they were ruined without rites having been altered. Consequently, those who acted counter to antiquity do not necessarily deserve blame, nor do those who followed established rites merit much praise. Let The Empress not hesitate.
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Aug 1, 2014 21:53
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##Vote B Sure, we're straight loving boned if we can't keep up military parity, but hey, it'll keep people from complaining about us blobbing. Samuel posted:Is this what you want senators?! If this is you're way of dissuading us from embracing China, you're failing horribly.
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Aug 1, 2014 22:04
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My personal opinion, at this stage, is that we should refrain from Sinicisation at this particular junction. Given what Rincewind has said I don't think we should refrain due to it irreperably changing our culture and making us a clone of China in all ways and forms, but rather because it will cause immense problems in relation to stability and our ability to deal with threats both foreign and domestic for a long period of time. The time to Sinicise is not right now, once we have integrated our vassals, once we have thrown the Pope out of Italy and if possible once we can claim the entire Italian peninsular as our own. Then it will be time to take further steps to reform the bureaucracy further and thus adopt a framework of government able to match our Chinese neighbours. If nothing else we should wait until we've had at least a decade of peace in order to build up our manpower reserves before attempting the reforms, otherwise we may well run out of soldiers before we run out of rebels.
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Aug 1, 2014 22:09
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##Vote A
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Aug 1, 2014 22:52
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I'll go ahead and ##Vote A
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Aug 1, 2014 22:58
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If we vote not to westernize and then say, vote to become Innovative would that cancel out any technology penalties in future games?
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Aug 1, 2014 23:05
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AdventFalls posted:If we vote not to westernize and then say, vote to become Innovative would that cancel out any technology penalties in future games? Completing the Plutocracy idea set gives us +5%, and there's a +5% from an idea in the Innovative set. The University is another 5%, and the Pass Education Act decision is as well. Boom, parity. In addition, Techs costs are reduced by about 14% for each full idea group of that category. Each idea reduces by 2%. So there are plenty of opportunities to improve our tech speed without the unnecessarily destabilizing act of Sinicization. sniper4625 fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Aug 1, 2014 |
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Aug 1, 2014 23:08
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sniper4625 posted:So there are plenty of opportunities to improve our tech speed without the unnecessarily destabilizing act of Sinicization. Yes, but if we engage in the unnecessarily destabilizing act of Sinicization the bonuses won't be cancelling out penalties, they'll just be bonuses. We could tech so fast! And it's really much more useful in the early game, as we'll get the 100% tech cost for a longer period. Plus, the neighbor bonus will help us catch up as soon as Sinicization is complete.
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Aug 1, 2014 23:12
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sniper4625 posted:Completing the Plutocracy idea set gives us +5%, and there's a +5% from an idea in the Innovative set. The University is another 5%, and the Pass Education Act decision is as well. Boom, parity. I like the idea of internal, Roman reform bringing us up to par with them or even surpassing them. Overcoming the handicap on our own merits, the plucky underdog of Asia challenging the smug pack leader, makes for a far more compelling narrative than just being another yapper in the pack playing follow-my-leader.
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Aug 1, 2014 23:14
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sniper4625 posted:Completing the Plutocracy idea set gives us +5%, and there's a +5% from an idea in the Innovative set. The University is another 5%, and the Pass Education Act decision is as well. Boom, parity. We can't get Plutocracy as we're a monarchy though. But really if you've played this game you know that 120% tech speed is just fine, and the AI has no trouble keeping up with 100% speed countries at those levels. With regards to later games, I don't think our research speed will have an effect as much as our technology level will. As long as we keep up to date and finish EU4 at the same technological level as China or almost there I don't see any reason to have any penalties come V2.
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Aug 1, 2014 23:15
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^^^ Oh really? Huh. Well, even without that 5%, the point stands.Meinberg posted:Yes, but if we engage in the unnecessarily destabilizing act of Sinicization the bonuses won't be cancelling out penalties, they'll just be bonuses. We could tech so fast! And it's really much more useful in the early game, as we'll get the 100% tech cost for a longer period. Plus, the neighbor bonus will help us catch up as soon as Sinicization is complete. You assume we'd even be able to succesfuly Sinicize, which is hardly a given considering our depleted armies, our soon to be rebellious populace, and the enemies that surround us. That's something none of the A supporters have really addressed - they point to their idealized future without acknowledging the very real threat that their idealism poses to the safety and stability of the Empire at large. AJ_Impy posted:I like the idea of internal, Roman reform bringing us up to par with them or even surpassing them. Overcoming the handicap on our own merits, the plucky underdog of Asia challenging the smug pack leader, makes for a far more compelling narrative than just being another yapper in the pack playing follow-my-leader. This too!
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Aug 1, 2014 23:15
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Meinberg posted:Yes, but if we engage in the unnecessarily destabilizing act of Sinicization the bonuses won't be cancelling out penalties, they'll just be bonuses. We could tech so fast! And it's really much more useful in the early game, as we'll get the 100% tech cost for a longer period. Plus, the neighbor bonus will help us catch up as soon as Sinicization is complete. This, along with interest in seeing what the cultural and political upheaval would look like, is why I'd recommend it.
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Aug 1, 2014 23:18
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