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Despair Memory Gundam Sequel new chapter: The priestess' cross has V-fins.
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Jul 18, 2023 13:16
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| # ? May 24, 2024 18:56 |
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tsob posted:It doesn't help that most people who imagine the One Week Battle view it as an uninhibited slugfest between two nuclear powers where multiple entire Sides of 40+ colony cylinders were wiped out in the crossfire between them as they desperately tried to take out the other at any cost, and basically no-one at Sunrise has ever been interested in portraying it that way; not even Tomino. Who always described the destruction of the Sides as being due to unilateral attacks by Zeon, and an outright and deliberate slaughter. About the only clear and unambiguous account of the Federation using nuclear weapons in the entire One Year War is to try to destroy Isle Iffish while Zeon escorted it to Earth, when everyone aboard was already dead anyway. Yeah but that doesn't fit the popular gundam narrative of :Bothsides: Edit: I never got Gundam fans who want their gundam to not have any gundams and no newtypes and no ace pilots. You might as well have a Macross without music.
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Jul 18, 2023 15:03
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Fivemarks posted:You might as well have a Macross without music.
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Jul 18, 2023 15:11
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So where does Yas's depiction of events in The Origin fall on the scale for the early OYW? It's a one sided mass murder for the most part.
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Jul 18, 2023 15:54
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Yeah I showed The Origin to my total Gundam newb friends (they had only seen Thunderbolt and War in Pocket before that) and they were like "holy poo poo Zeon is just loving horrible". Like, one of them shocked how much Zeon were clearly the bad guys. He thought OYW was more gray than that. Which is funny considering how I've seen people online accuse The Origin of Zeon whitewashing. A particular criticism I don't really get. Sander fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 16:53
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It's more of a Char-washing because it does portray him more as a super cool Machiavellian schemer rather than an opportunistic poo poo. I like to imagine that it's all Quattro Bajeena telling Kamille stories about Char and embellishing how totally awesome that guy was.
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Jul 18, 2023 16:56
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I think the perception of Char-washing is heightened by the fact that it is a flashback ripped out from a greater story. As cool as Yas makes Char... he still gets his rear end handed to him by Amuro. Also, that scene of a guy in a suit of armor has a payoff at the end where Char has an epiphany where he literally goes "holy poo poo I'm being exactly like that one loving loser in a suit of armor trying to kill a teenager, fuuuuuuuuck". Sander fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 17:02
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Char's importance gets upped in the Origin but I never really saw it portraying him as cool, he's even more of a complete sociopathic monster to everyone around him.
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Jul 18, 2023 17:10
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Cool as in "what a badass" cool (although I'd argue he always been cool, even if also pathetic), rather than "what a good person" cool. Because yeah, he is a massive rear end in a top hat in The Origin. The only Zeon guys portrayed in a positive light are Ramba and his people. Sander fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 17:12
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Even Ramba has his shortcomings. Sure he's morally opposed to the colony drop and that gets him tossed from Dozle's camp but he's still Space Rommel at the end of the day for the good and ill that entails. Apart from actual Desert Rommel but he's not until ZZ.
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Jul 18, 2023 17:17
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Fivemarks posted:Yeah but that doesn't fit the popular gundam narrative of :Bothsides:
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Jul 18, 2023 17:56
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there should have only been one gundam in 8th ms team if there had to be one
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Jul 18, 2023 17:59
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They should've just had GM's and stuck Gundam heads on for propoganda/psychological warfare reasons. As it is the series is the single worst offender in the Gundam inflation realm, aside from deviant art I suppose.
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Jul 18, 2023 18:01
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So Thunderbolt, then. Or GM's Counterattack.
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Jul 18, 2023 18:03
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Arc Hammer posted:It's more of a Char-washing because it does portray him more as a super cool Machiavellian schemer rather than an opportunistic poo poo. I like to imagine that it's all Quattro Bajeena telling Kamille stories about Char and embellishing how totally awesome that guy was. It's the opposite I think. It portrays him as a schemer but also not a particularly great one because he is so driven by his own anger and bad impulses that he undercuts himself time and time again. He manages to make things worse but only rarely in a way that actively benefits him. The ending even doesn't hint he survives (more akin to the original release) and has him doing the "LALAH COULD BE A MOTHER TO ME" thing to Amuro.
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Jul 18, 2023 18:13
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The origin manga definitely is trying to make sure it shows all three form of Char (The original series, Quattro, CCA char) during it's run and isn't out to make him look cool. But much like people go "Wow Cool Robots" the manga has Char doing cool things and people overlook them blowing up in his face cause he's doing cool things
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Jul 18, 2023 18:33
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ImpAtom posted:It's the opposite I think. It portrays him as a schemer but also not a particularly great one because he is so driven by his own anger and bad impulses that he undercuts himself time and time again. He manages to make things worse but only rarely in a way that actively benefits him. The ending even doesn't hint he survives (more akin to the original release) and has him doing the "LALAH COULD BE A MOTHER TO ME" thing to Amuro. I'm coming at this from watching the Origin film series more than I am the full manga (it's good, mind you, but I prefer the tv series to the retelling overall). I really enjoy the Origin films but the visual language and the music do direct the audience toward viewing Char as this badass antihero taking down the space nazis from the inside rather than the confused mess of a man he ends up becoming in the original series. The movies are more the story of how Char became the legendary Red Comet than they are showing how the man underneath that mask is a trainwreck. That comes down to adaptation, however. Since the Origin films only cover the flashback chapters it doesn't have the counterpoint when things don't work out for Char later in The Origin manga. The official stance from Banrise is that Origin and Thunderbolt are AU stories but really I don't think they care all that much if people headcanon them into being prequels and sidestories to the UC timeline shows, because in practice that's what they are. So as a standalone film series it's about Char the cool badass but the answer for "what happens next" is a shrug and a finger pointing towards either the manga series or to watch 0079. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 18:47
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it is definitely true that the origin is geared towards presenting char's sociopathic actions as being entertaining and visually interesting, as it is a visual work of entertainment. that being said "cool" and "badass" are a bit hard to pin down, but i think it's fair to say that when char is being a sociopath in The Origin movies, it is supposed to present him as being highly skilled/competent in that sociopathy and also provide the audience with a sense of satisfaction from seeing him rip through common boundaries of decency to enact his murderous goals. those are fun scenes to watch, and they don't really present char as pitiable. but also who cares i enjoy the sociopathic char scenes, they're fun in that exaggerated over the top fashion that origin is built around. cool sociopath char was always there, it's just being made much more prominent in the origin much like the insane zabi family drama is hilariously exaggerated or the 3d mecha fights show giant cannon shells from mobile suits rip through a ship and explode in shrapnel, turning the whole thing into swiss cheese with a single shot. it's just playing up an aspect of the original story, singling char-washing out there is a bit odd to me as it's pretty consistent with how the origin seems to treat every other element it takes from the original show. also the 80 different gundam prototypes in the last month of the OYW is goofy but i've never really considered it a meaningful criticism of anything. each stupid prototype works well in the individual stories and i can't believe anyone cares about all the gundam OYW side stories together in aggregate creating a funny factoid. if the actual criticism is that the OYW is a played out setting then i can see that, though imo i also don't find it a meaningful criticism that these side stories like to use the basic building blocks of "the bad guy fascists" and "the morally grey guys fighting the fascists" and slot in a setting and visual language the viewer is likely already familiar with. the OYW is a cool setting for interesting stories about trauma!
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Jul 18, 2023 19:28
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Gaius Marius posted:They should've just had GM's and stuck Gundam heads on for propoganda/psychological warfare reasons. As it is the series is the single worst offender in the Gundam inflation realm, aside from deviant art I suppose. I've always felt like they should have leaned in to the "V Project spare parts" angle, and had all of the Feddie MS be bespoke units cobbled together from rejected protoypes. So you maybe have only one suit in the unit that's constructed from lunar titanium, so they keep throwing it in front to take all the fire. Or only one suit has beam weapons but is constantly overheating as a result. And imagine all the gunpla!
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Jul 18, 2023 19:47
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I only single out Char because in isolation the films are only giving you part of who Char is and if they'd gone further with a ludicrous full remake of the original show we'd also get over the top melodrama for Char's breakdowns. The rest of the exaggeration present in Origin I don't mind either because melodrama is fun and it's presented well in a way that would carry over without a hitch into full followup. It doesn't harm my enjoyment of the movies but they're definitely more Red Comet Char and less Basket Case Char.
Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jul 18, 2023 |
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Jul 18, 2023 19:58
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Arc Hammer posted:It's more of a Char-washing because it does portray him more as a super cool Machiavellian schemer rather than an opportunistic poo poo. I like to imagine that it's all Quattro Bajeena telling Kamille stories about Char and embellishing how totally awesome that guy was. I don't buy that at all, if anything I'd argue The Origin makes it a lot clearer that Char is a manipulative psychopath who brings nothing but death and misery to everyone he meets But then I also prefer ignoring the existence of the OVA adaptation for The Origin since it's not only incomplete but also honestly kind of mediocre outside of that opening section showing the Battle of Loum Razor Jacksuit posted:I've always felt like they should have leaned in to the "V Project spare parts" angle, and had all of the Feddie MS be bespoke units cobbled together from rejected protoypes. So you maybe have only one suit in the unit that's constructed from lunar titanium, so they keep throwing it in front to take all the fire. Or only one suit has beam weapons but is constantly overheating as a result. And imagine all the gunpla! It is funny that it took like 20 something years and a The Origin tie-in model kit line for them to finally explain how the Ground Gundams fit into Project V, and that was by revealing that there were in fact multiple different designs that were lumped under the singular RX-78-1 designation
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Jul 18, 2023 22:17
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I liked the origin changing the guncannon and guntank to be mass produced because it helps explain why the gundam and consequently the gms are a step up. It also makes a little more sense to me that the feddies would have ineffective mobile suits before making a breakthrough with the gundam.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:29
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I wish the franchise had leaned into the Guncannon as a separate line from the Gundam, with it's own mass produced lineage of suits throughout UC honestly, since it seems like something that fills enough of a distinct battlefield role with it's focus on medium range and high armor (even compared to the RX-78-2) to warrant it. Instead we just get a few GMs with shoulder cannons for the most part. The Origin making it a gimped mobile suit sits wrong with me for that reason. I can understand the reasoning, but it's not my preferred choice personally. That aside, if Sunrise were going to do a new adaptation of Mobile Suit Gundam, I'd love them to do an adaptation of Tomino's novels, because there's enough different there to be interesting. They'd have to make some editorial choices to remove a few weirder things (I can't see the thing about the pube charm making it in, for instance), but Amuro starting off as an actual enlisted pilot and becoming more of a commander throughout the war is a big difference from what the show/movies did, and even Char is depicted in a more sympathetic light throughout.
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Jul 18, 2023 23:41
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tsob posted:the pube charm The what, now?
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Jul 19, 2023 00:12
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SnakesRevenge posted:The what, now? mobile suit gundam is about the second world war
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Jul 19, 2023 01:08
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tsob posted:I wish the franchise had leaned into the Guncannon as a separate line from the Gundam, with it's own mass produced lineage of suits throughout UC honestly, since it seems like something that fills enough of a distinct battlefield role with it's focus on medium range and high armor (even compared to the RX-78-2) to warrant it. Instead we just get a few GMs with shoulder cannons for the most part. The Origin making it a gimped mobile suit sits wrong with me for that reason. I can understand the reasoning, but it's not my preferred choice personally. That aside, if Sunrise were going to do a new adaptation of Mobile Suit Gundam, I'd love them to do an adaptation of Tomino's novels, because there's enough different there to be interesting. They'd have to make some editorial choices to remove a few weirder things (I can't see the thing about the pube charm making it in, for instance), but Amuro starting off as an actual enlisted pilot and becoming more of a commander throughout the war is a big difference from what the show/movies did, and even Char is depicted in a more sympathetic light throughout. This but Guntank Guntank woooooooooooo
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Jul 19, 2023 01:24
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I got the vibe that the Guncannon probably made a ton of sense in a world which does not have beam guns, and makes a lot less sense in a world that does.
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Jul 19, 2023 01:55
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hostess with the Moltres posted:I liked the origin changing the guncannon and guntank to be mass produced because it helps explain why the gundam and consequently the gms are a step up. It also makes a little more sense to me that the feddies would have ineffective mobile suits before making a breakthrough with the gundam. They feel a lot like a military procurement boondoggle where there was a bunch of contractors in the design phase just adding stuff to drive up cost and not really thinking about the real world use of them which hey fits in greatly for the fact they originally existed cause they wanted more super roboty type toys at the time
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Jul 19, 2023 02:07
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Finally finished Zeta and that's...uh, a note to end on. Jesus Christ. I wonder how that kind of ending was received back then  Taking this series alone Char seems pretty okay to me though I might be forgetting a few things by now? Obviously I remember what he did in Origin and that's another story.
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Jul 19, 2023 02:07
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Dessel posted:Finally finished Zeta and that's...uh, a note to end on. Jesus Christ. I wonder how that kind of ending was received back then Now imagine that said ending was followed just weeks later by the start of ZZ. Watch the first episode of ZZ for some whiplash.
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Jul 19, 2023 02:12
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Nessus posted:I got the vibe that the Guncannon probably made a ton of sense in a world which does not have beam guns, and makes a lot less sense in a world that does. The Guncannon still makes some sense in the OYW, since one of the main limitations of One Year War technology is that beam guns are gigantic power hogs that are hard to miniaturize to the point where the Gundam's beam rifle is basically a bolt from the blue wunderwaffen, so having big solid shot cannons still makes sense. It's less sensible once everyone and their dog has a beam rifle.
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Jul 19, 2023 02:13
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the oyw is based on zeon having an initial, unprecedented success via their amazing tech advantage. it doesn't work as well if the federation had mobile suits, too. lovely mobile suits, sure. but not so lovely that they should be completely helpless against zakus. it just doesn't sit right with me.
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Jul 19, 2023 02:17
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The Zaku is a Zero and the Gundam is the equivalent of a Hellcat with the firepower of USS Iowa in its guns.
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Jul 19, 2023 02:27
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:the oyw is based on zeon having an initial, unprecedented success via their amazing tech advantage. it doesn't work as well if the federation had mobile suits, too. lovely mobile suits, sure. but not so lovely that they should be completely helpless against zakus. it just doesn't sit right with me. The French at the outset of World War II had comparable numbers of tanks to the Nazis, and many of their tank models were actually better on a one for one basis than a significant percentage of the tanks the Wehrmacht was fielding(many of which were basically armored cars with machine guns), but that didn't stop the Nazis from rolling right over them with superior tactics, coordination, and surprise against an unprepared enemy.
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Jul 19, 2023 03:23
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The Guncannon's howitzers are capable of indirect fire, and don't eat battery. That's two significant tactical advantages over beam rifles. It's a decent fire support suit.that has a solid niche alongside the more close-quarters-specialised GMs, and makes an entirely adequate partner machine to the RX-78.
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Jul 19, 2023 03:23
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It can also push people.
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Jul 19, 2023 03:24
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SnakesRevenge posted:The what, now? http://www.burogu.com/2012/04/japanese-lucky-charm-pubic-hair.html It's in the novel written by Tomino; one of the pilots asks one of the girls for a good luck charm and gets slapped I think.
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Jul 19, 2023 04:04
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I'm wrapping up Victory and going to start into G-Reco. Is the general consensus that the movies are the preferable choice now that they're all out?
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Jul 19, 2023 05:30
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Sander posted:Cool as in "what a badass" cool (although I'd argue he always been cool, even if also pathetic), rather than "what a good person" cool. Some of the grunts are also shown sympathetically, especially later on when Sayla launches a revolt. Also, if you watch the movie, there's Doan. (Also, M'Quve is a much better person in the manga than the anime, although Doan's Island tones that back down.) Overall, though, I'd agree that the Origin is one of the most "Zeon Sucks" pieces of content around the One Year War, contrasting with IGLOO on the other end.
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Jul 19, 2023 06:03
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| # ? May 24, 2024 18:56 |
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parabolic posted:I'm wrapping up Victory and going to start into G-Reco. Is the general consensus that the movies are the preferable choice now that they're all out? I don't know if anyone's actually seen the films in here. Some of the animation looks nice, I heard some talk of cleaning up the plot but that was already perfectly cromulent.
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Jul 19, 2023 07:33
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