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If this actually gets declared a tie by the media and the general public then y'all can shut the gently caress up about Kaine being bad because that's a minor miracle. 
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Oct 5, 2016 03:47
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berserker posted:WOW. Basically, it's the VP debate. It won't hurt Trump, sadly, but it's not going to change any minds. If Clinton kicks his rear end again on Sunday, and there's very little reason to think she won't, he hosed.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:47
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Lightning Knight posted:You keep saying this and keep ignoring that there was nothing he could do. Him being aggressive prevented Pence from just walking all over him with lies, and absent a competent moderator there's nothing more that he could do. So why bother debating at all if it's impossible for him to say or do anything? Yes, I think him talking over Pence constantly devalued it. Instead of making his points heard he was babbling so often they never really got through. He did better in the debate when he shut up and stopped trying to interrupt Pence mid-sentence.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:47
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Theory: Bill Weld would easily have won this debate if he had been there. Discuss. (Disclaimer I am not a libertarian and have no intention whatsoever of voting for GJ, but I think Bill Weld is a pretty smart and capable guy)
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Oct 5, 2016 03:47
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berserker posted:WOW. No it isn't. It's a sign of enthusiasm for Trump. Like even I'm not Arzy enough to think a VP debate is going to swing the ship around, but let's be clear: this was a major gently caress-up for Kaine tonight, and if I was Clinton I'd be pretty pissed he fell down on the job.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:48
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Sensible Thursday posted:He was talking about Kaine hitting all the "erogenous zones" of the Democratic party - minorities, abortion rights, etc. EwwwwwwwwWWWWWWWWW. Also Quijano was awful.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:48
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Lightning Knight posted:
Yeah this was my take as well. Add to that the fact that he managed to come off as relatively calm while spouting so much bullshit probably looks good to the normal voters who hadn't switched it off after the first 10 minutes.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:48
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Lightning Knight posted:If this actually gets declared a tie by the media and the general public then y'all can shut the gently caress up about Kaine being bad because that's a minor miracle. He had a great close and probably won on facts, but he debated much worse
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Oct 5, 2016 03:48
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Pakled posted:Probably by number or tonnage of ships. Which of course is totally beside the point because It is literally "number of ships". Only 270 boats!
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Oct 5, 2016 03:48
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IMO Pence probably edged out a win in the Night Of category purely on style. But the thing is, nobody watches the night of for the VP debates; everyone catches it dissected and broken apart into talking points the next day, and that's where Kaine wins. So call it a wash I suppose, which counts as a loss for the Trump team since he's desperately behind and Hillary's sitting on 272 strong-lean or safe electoral votes.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:49
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Kaine did fine. He did what he had to do, which was constantly remind people of Donald Trump's greatest hits. That Pence couldn't defend any of them made him look stupid. Obviously Pence was smoother. Ultimately it doesn't really matter. Quayle got owned during the 88' VP debate and Bush Sr still won big. And the 2nd Presidential debate is in 5 days, which will wipe this VP debate away forever.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:49
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So CNN is basically going with the argument that Pence made a good argument for the 2020 nomination, but abandoned Trump
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Oct 5, 2016 03:49
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HootTheOwl posted:It is literally "number of ships". Only 270 boats!
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Oct 5, 2016 03:49
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ImpAtom posted:So why bother debating at all if it's impossible for him to say or do anything? The problem isn't the debate, the problem is the moderator. She showed up to play timekeeper, not fact-checker, and so the whole thing was a pointless waste of time. If moderators won't fact-check a debate they don't belong there, period. You try debating someone who is literally making poo poo up off the top of their head in response to anything you say, with no third party to verify the truth. What you say stops mattering and your ability to offer meaningful response doesn't exist. Kaine did pretty good considering this same approach by Romney torpedoed Obama in 2012 with the general public.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:49
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Lightning Knight posted:Any moderator who won't live fact check might as well not show up to the debate. You're literally worse than useless if you can't be bothered to do basic poo poo like that. Yes, and Romney won the first debate super-hard to the point it's one of the great debate trouncings of recent time. The fact that it's hard to encounter doesn't make it an excuse that Kaine was caught with his pants down
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Oct 5, 2016 03:49
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The Glumslinger posted:So CNN is basically going with the argument that Pence made a good argument for the 2020 nomination, but abandoned Trump poo poo I'll take it.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:50
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Did they ask Pence about the HIV epidemic in Indiana that his policies caused
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Oct 5, 2016 03:50
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CelestialScribe posted:No it isn't. It's a sign of enthusiasm for Trump. Dude undecided independents account for something like 5% of what is left in the electorate, everyone else has already decided. It was split half and half with the focus group, which is about right with how undecideds break at the last minute - and we're in the final stretch right now. If they aren't changing their vote at this point, and polls are showing Clinton with a steady ~4% lead right now, then after all of those undecideds finally make their choice the final result will still be ~4%.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:50
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I posted this in another thread, but literally EVERY major network pundit said that Pence needed to reach out to the independents out there and suburban women to help Trump win. Yet, most pundits believe he was "successful" tonight by ignoring those groups and targeting, exclusively, right-wing conservatives.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:51
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GalacticAcid posted:Did they ask Pence about the HIV epidemic in Indiana that his policies caused No, its one of Kaine's bigger mistakes. He didn't try to pin down Pence on anything, except for when he brought up the overturned refugee law
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Oct 5, 2016 03:51
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dont even fink about it posted:Pence's position on Russia is 100% the opposite of Trump's and he just made up a bunch of poo poo about Syria rather than talk about Trump's positions on it. These two peculiarities are more or less the story of the debate on any given issue. Pence had to walk a fine line between Trump's statements and the GOP party line on Russia, but his factual contradictions don't matter when you're playing to a mass audience. He slickly sold the mess of his position and Trump's position, which was more than Kaine was able to do.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:51
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GalacticAcid posted:Did they ask Pence about the HIV epidemic in Indiana that his policies caused i don't think they brought up lgbtqia issues at all
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Oct 5, 2016 03:51
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You know who Mike Pence looks like? The captain from Sealab 2021.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:51
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:poo poo I'll take it. I would enjoy seeing Clinton take on Pence in 2020. She'd do a far better job than Kaine.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:51
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Pence won the debate, although Kaine ended on a strong note with that question about faith and abortion. If the Trump campaign were smart, they would start emphasizing Pence for the rest of the campaign, to shore up some of Trump's obvious weaknesses.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:51
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GalacticAcid posted:Did they ask Pence about the HIV epidemic in Indiana that his policies caused Nope. They also didn't go into LGBT policies at all. I was frustrated at Kaine for not bringing either of those things up when he had the opportunity.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:51
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HootTheOwl posted:It is literally "number of ships". Only 270 boats! We stopped building tons of lovely Destroyer and Destroyer Escort boats to patrol the North Atlantic. We still have something like 10 of the worlds 20 Aircraft Carriers, 22 of 29 Cruisers, 62 of 215 Destroyers and 72 of 184 Nuclear submarines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_military_equipment
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Oct 5, 2016 03:51
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ImpAtom posted:So why bother debating at all if it's impossible for him to say or do anything? If moderators won't fact check at a basic level then there is literally no point in debating. I mean, you have to do it because it's expected and you look bad by default if you stay home, but the best you can do is avoid hurting yourself too badly. Debates aren't supposed to be free-for-alls where you just say whatever the hell you want. People like Pence and Romney get away with this because there's no expectation in American politics that politicians will actually be questioned on their statements directly.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:52
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Instant Sunrise posted:i don't think they brought up lgbtqia issues at all They did in the context of the Russian government's anti-gay policies, but otherwise no.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:52
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berserker posted:But then when asked "does this change your vote?" absolutely ZERO of them raised their hands. yup. I think if you wanted to change people's votes for the presidency you have to be so bad that you make voters question the presidential candidate's judgement (Sarah palin.) Not sure if there's a way to do so well you'd make more people vote for your guy though
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Oct 5, 2016 03:52
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berserker posted:Dude undecided independents account for something like 5% of what is left in the electorate, everyone else has already decided. It was split half and half with the focus group, which is about right with how undecideds break at the last minute - and we're in the final stretch right now. If they aren't changing their vote at this point, and polls are showing Clinton with a steady ~4% lead right now, then after all of those undecideds finally make their choice the final result will still be ~4%. What part of "even I'm not Arzy enough to think a VP debate is going to swing the ship around" did not land?
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Oct 5, 2016 03:52
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Kaine needed to calm the heck down, and he did himself no favours with his repetitions, subject-changes, and interruptions. He got off some good jabs, but he could have hit Pence way harder and with much better timing. Pence was evasive and provably full of poo poo, but he was also effective at masking his evasiveness as incredulity. The post-debate analysis will not be kind to him, but he was the Generic Republican a lot of disillusioned voters were looking for. The whole thing feels like a wash to me.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:52
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ponzicar posted:Pence won the debate, although Kaine ended on a strong note with that question about faith and abortion. If the Trump campaign were smart, they would start emphasizing Pence for the rest of the campaign, to shore up some of Trump's obvious weaknesses. Trump would never allow someone else to be top billing.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:52
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Mike Pence truly is Reaganesque.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:52
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That relies on Trump letting anybody else take center stage. Not gonna happen. Pence will be back to a bit player in no time.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:52
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ImpAtom posted:Yes, and Romney won the first debate super-hard to the point it's one of the great debate trouncings of recent time. The fact that it's hard to encounter doesn't make it an excuse that Kaine was caught with his pants down That's what I meant. Obama, a good debater and public speaker, did poorly in the eyes of the general public in the first 2012 debate despite being factually correct because Romney just straight up lied and nobody bothered to call him out until later. My point is, you're saying Kaine wasn't prepared and I say that's bullshit. What it comes down to is, prepared or not, there's nothing he could've done without independent fact-checking. Obama only won the second debate because of "proceed, governor," and other important moments of actual fact checking. If the moderators sit there with a stop watch and say nothing otherwise facts matter less than trivial dumb bullshit like "do I like how this person sounds?" and "are they polite?"
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Oct 5, 2016 03:53
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Paradoxish posted:If moderators won't fact check at a basic level then there is literally no point in debating. I mean, you have to do it because it's expected and you look bad by default if you stay home, but the best you can do is avoid hurting yourself too badly. Debates aren't supposed to be free-for-alls where you just say whatever the hell you want. People keep saying this but like Kaine interrupted the moderator when she was trying to fact check Pence on Stop and Frisk. How is that the moderator's fault when Kaine gave Pence the out? It's dumb to keep going "Well, the moderator..." when Kaine cut her off from doing exactly that and destroyed a really promising attempt for Pence to gently caress himself for no reason.
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Oct 5, 2016 03:53
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XyrlocShammypants posted:I posted this in another thread, but literally EVERY major network pundit said that Pence needed to reach out to the independents out there and suburban women to help Trump win. Yet, most pundits believe he was "successful" tonight by ignoring those groups and targeting, exclusively, right-wing conservatives. That sounds like some pundits want to get things back into horse race status, ignoring what actually affects the race. I just heard a pundit say "people will be saying that Pence did a far better job than Trump, and that isn't going to make the presidential candidate happy" 
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Oct 5, 2016 03:53
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Okay is ANYONE else getting redirected often to the wrong loving threads when you click "see new posts" in a given thread?
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Oct 5, 2016 03:53
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GalacticAcid posted:Mike Pence truly is Reaganesque. He's not quite jovial enough in his blatant lies
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Oct 5, 2016 03:53
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