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Gen. Ripper posted:Hahahaha oh god the notracists are going to be coming out in full loving force aren't they. Under the guise of egalitarian leftism no less. Not really sure what you mean by that.
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Oct 25, 2013 00:45
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the JJ posted:Not really sure what you mean by that. I think he is referring to reports that the Revolution in the Benghazi region have taken a sectarian turn - people with darker skin are targets of violence - fitting in with the wave of migrant tragedies lately in the Mediterranean.
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Oct 25, 2013 00:56
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Was there ever any evidence that Gadaffi's legions of African mercenaries really existed?
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Oct 25, 2013 01:15
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I think this is hilarious. Isn't this the exact same thing that happened in Sudan? Rich cardinal direction of a country with oil tries to separate from the rest of the country, leaving them no chance of a share of the profits, reducing the state's power against enemies. I mean, divide and conquer's pretty old school. And in this world I don't even mean militarily conquer, just economically. A smaller state's going to be even less able to resist the "investment" of foreign corporations. Just unfortunate that this is the effect of the revolution.
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Oct 25, 2013 03:01
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I wouldn't take the breakup of Libya as a certain thing yet, it just appears that there are some groups in the country interested in the idea. As for foreign investment, it's not been pouring into Libya with all the unrest. I'm not sure any hypothetical breakup would result in an instantaneous surge of foreign investment.
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Oct 25, 2013 03:13
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the JJ posted:Not really sure what you mean by that. People spewing "See how poo poo Africa is now? Told you we shouldn't have gotten rid of colonialism.  " except Ctrl+F replace "Africa" with "Libya" and "colonialism" with "Gaddafi" and add a bunch of words about WESTERN IMPERIALISM NATO WAR CRIMES 
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Oct 25, 2013 03:29
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Gen. Ripper posted:People spewing "See how poo poo Africa is now? Told you we shouldn't have gotten rid of colonialism. So you really don't give a poo poo how Libya turned out, you're just glad Obama got to drop some more bombs and are probably pissed he didn't drop them in Syria too.
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Oct 25, 2013 04:52
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OctaviusBeaver posted:So you really don't give a poo poo how Libya turned out, you're just glad Obama got to drop some more bombs and are probably pissed he didn't drop them in Syria too. Yeah, because "Hey even if this country is lovely right now it doesn't mean we should bring back their cartoonishly evil dictator" clearly translates to "HOORAH AMERICA gently caress YEAH BOMB THOSE ARAB SAVAGES INTO THE SEA   "  I didn't support the Iraq War, but you won't see me crying for Saddam anytime soon.
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Oct 25, 2013 05:17
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OctaviusBeaver posted:So you really don't give a poo poo how Libya turned out, you're just glad Obama got to drop some more bombs and are probably pissed he didn't drop them in Syria too. Exactly how much bearing do you think the bomb dropping played as compared to that whole "massive protests and social unrest followed by violent government crackdown and full scale revolution that toppled the government" thing?
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Oct 25, 2013 06:34
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mediadave posted:Was there ever any evidence that Gadaffi's legions of African mercenaries really existed? This is a really good and interesting question. I'm keen to find out more on this too. We hear a lot about black people being chased down like dogs in the final days of the war and its aftermath, but very little ever since.
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Oct 25, 2013 07:00
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:This is a really good and interesting question. I'm keen to find out more on this too. We hear a lot about black people being chased down like dogs in the final days of the war and its aftermath, but very little ever since. There were a handful, like, perhaps a few hundred "mercenaries." Some Nigerians were allegedly recruited from print advertising, and a few Nigeriens also showed up. A 16-year-old Chadian was also conscripted into Gaddafi's forces while looking for work on the Chadian/Libyan border. At least a few dozen African men were pressed into last-minute service. The Gaddafi regime denied their presence. These cases were reported in either major media outlets or by academics -- so there's some reason to believe they may be credible, but there is good reason to be skeptical of most reports. Much of North Africa, Libya included, has a long, sordid history of poor relations with sub-Saharan and Horn of Africa migrants and refugees. This racism was institutional and predated the revolution, and the conflict only exacerbated it. I remember following on Twitter four young Eritrean men who were hiding in a Tripoli-area migrant safe house as the regime collapsed. I'm not sure what ever happened to them, but their fear was deep and well founded.
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Oct 25, 2013 07:46
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mediadave posted:Was there ever any evidence that Gadaffi's legions of African mercenaries really existed? Hmmm... that's a really interesting question that never occurred to me. I mean, someone was killing enough civilians on a scale large enough to incite armed rebellion. The accounts of African mercenaries seemed fairly immediate and widespread so I'd hesitate to say it didn't happen, but who knows? Libya seemed to have exponentially less real time documentation than Syria or even Egypt and I can't recall ever seeing a picture of purported African mercenaries carrying out any attacks in Libya.
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Oct 25, 2013 08:12
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Gen. Ripper posted:Yeah, because "Hey even if this country is lovely right now it doesn't mean we should bring back their cartoonishly evil dictator" clearly translates to "HOORAH AMERICA gently caress YEAH BOMB THOSE ARAB SAVAGES INTO THE SEA The point isn't that Gaddafi was a great guy, the point was that the outcome of the Lybian civil war does not effect us. It also doesn't seem to have improved things for the Lybians. Also it directly lead to a mob murdering our ambassadors so it's not like the Lybians are grateful. We had no clear reason to get involved in the first place and our involvement didn't seem to help anyone. The fact that we didn't make the same mistake in Syria (or haven't yet anyway) is a good thing. Warbadger posted:Exactly how much bearing do you think the bomb dropping played as compared to that whole "massive protests and social unrest followed by violent government crackdown and full scale revolution that toppled the government" thing? It clearly greased the wheels but wasn't the only factor involved. What are you trying to say?
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Oct 26, 2013 03:52
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Also it directly lead to a mob murdering our ambassadors so it's not like the Lybians are grateful. poo poo. BENGHAZIIIIIIII!!!!?! Well I never. Clearly something over a year in the future we couldn't see coming retroactively justifies leaving the Libyan people to Gaddafi's tender mercies. Or maybe it doesn't and you're a kinda racist piece of poo poo.
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Oct 26, 2013 04:18
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A lot of the mercenaries in Libya were Tuaregs.OctaviusBeaver posted:The point isn't that Gaddafi was a great guy, the point was that the outcome of the Lybian civil war does not effect us. It also doesn't seem to have improved things for the Lybians. Also it directly lead to a mob murdering our ambassadors so it's not like the Lybians are grateful. We had no clear reason to get involved in the first place and our involvement didn't seem to help anyone. The fact that we didn't make the same mistake in Syria (or haven't yet anyway) is a good thing. First off, it's Libyans. Second off, if Ghaddafi had stayed in power and massacred his citizens, you'd see this exact same conflict happen 10 years down the road. Having brutal dictators in power will keep a lid on the underlying social tensions of a society but the problems are all still there simmering beneath the surface, remaining unresolved. Libyans need to restructure their state and their collective relationship with each other because the last social contract was clearly a failure that they don't want to repeat. Sergg fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Oct 26, 2013 |
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Oct 26, 2013 04:42
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Sergg posted:First off, it's Libyans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAGGpK7bSWc
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Oct 26, 2013 06:05
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OctaviusBeaver posted:It clearly greased the wheels but wasn't the only factor involved. What are you trying to say? That it had practically nothing to do with the government capitulating in Libya.
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Oct 26, 2013 06:25
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Call me crazy but maybe it's a good thing if Libya splits up into smaller autonomous states. Are the current borders of Libya drawn by an organic process that took into account the wishes and considerations of its native citizens? Or were they drawn by Turkish and Italian imperial powers irrespective of cultural, ethnic, and linguistic differences and subsequently ruled with an iron fist? Same deal with Syria. Were Syria's borders drawn by popular referendum of its constituent people or by a bunch of French and British assholes a thousand miles away? And people fuckin wonder why 'those crazy Middle-Easterners are always killing each other' because they forget the same thing was happening in Europe just a generation before for a lot of the same drat reasons.
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Oct 26, 2013 07:40
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Also it directly lead to a mob murdering our ambassadors so it's not like the Lybians are grateful. Just for future reference, Ambassador Stevens wasn't killed by a mob, he died from smoke inhalation as the result of a preplanned attack by a band of professional fighters. The widely circulated picture of his body being carried by a crowd actually depicts civilians braving the chaos to try to get the Ambassador to a medical facility. They made this effort in large part because he was liked and admired by the Libyan people who saw him as an apolitical backer of their cause who understood and sympathized in their struggles. So basically everything about your sentence is wrong and suggests you haven't done more than the most cursory research on the topic your commenting on.
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Oct 26, 2013 10:17
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Even still. It has been like one or two years now? I suspect a lot of people are projecting their country's standards on Libya, imagining that if they overthrew a dictator they can just elect a new leader. It is not like that in Libya, they have to build an entire government from almost scratch. Anyone who thought it would all be rainbows and unicorns after the big bad evil man was killed was deluding themselves. Intervention was still the better alternative.
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Oct 26, 2013 10:22
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Hey, maybe some good news, although if true the revenge might not be so nice. Also, the death toll from a car bombing in rebel-held territory of Damascus yesterday has surpassed 100. This marks something like the third car bombing in rebel territory in the past month. Any idea who is behind such attacks, if it's internecine fighting or a possible regime move?
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Oct 26, 2013 12:08
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MothraAttack posted:Hey, maybe some good news, although if true the revenge might not be so nice. Also, the death toll from a car bombing in rebel-held territory of Damascus yesterday has surpassed 100. This marks something like the third car bombing in rebel territory in the past month. Any idea who is behind such attacks, if it's internecine fighting or a possible regime move? The opposition has claimed it's military intelligence organising the attacks, one bombing was stopped back in September.
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Oct 26, 2013 13:25
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It's not terrorism when the regime does it, or going by the comments to your post: "Nu-uh".
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Oct 26, 2013 13:47
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MothraAttack posted:Hey, maybe some good news, although if true the revenge might not be so nice. Also, the death toll from a car bombing in rebel-held territory of Damascus yesterday has surpassed 100. This marks something like the third car bombing in rebel territory in the past month. Any idea who is behind such attacks, if it's internecine fighting or a possible regime move? I'm not sure if they were ever able to prove it, but that funeral procession in Zamalka that was blown up last year by a car bomb was almost certainly a regime attack. Wouldn't be the first time if they were beginning to escalate use of unconventional weapons like that.
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Oct 26, 2013 14:14
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Sergg posted:A lot of the mercenaries in Libya were Tuaregs. It's nice that America is in such great shape that we have time and money to spare for foreign adventures to help other societies resolve the "tensions" that are "simmering beneath the surface" and may cause problems for a country on the other side of the planet at some point. Do you have a list of other countries with bad social contracts that we should bomb? cafel posted:Just for future reference, Ambassador Stevens wasn't killed by a mob, he died from smoke inhalation as the result of a preplanned attack by a band of professional fighters. The widely circulated picture of his body being carried by a crowd actually depicts civilians braving the chaos to try to get the Ambassador to a medical facility. They made this effort in large part because he was liked and admired by the Libyan people who saw him as an apolitical backer of their cause who understood and sympathized in their struggles. So basically everything about your sentence is wrong and suggests you haven't done more than the most cursory research on the topic your commenting on. Clearly some of the Libyan people did not admire him because they murdered him. Warbadger posted:That it had practically nothing to do with the government capitulating in Libya. If true that would be an argument against to war in Libya, not for it. Gen. Ripper posted:poo poo. BENGHAZIIIIIIII!!!!?! Well I never. Clearly something over a year in the future we couldn't see coming retroactively justifies leaving the Libyan people to Gaddafi's tender mercies. Maybe you're a racist AND warmongering piece of poo poo. Bombing Arabs sure seems to give you a boner.
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Oct 26, 2013 17:02
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OctaviusBeaver posted:It's nice that America is in such great shape that we have time and money to spare for foreign adventures to help other societies resolve the "tensions" that are "simmering beneath the surface" and may cause problems for a country on the other side of the planet at some point. Do you have a list of other countries with bad social contracts that we should bomb? Isn't it?  Hey guys, kinda hit some hard times. We're gonna spend the money on improving our highway system instead. Lot of bridges are in disrepair, things like that. So, we're cool, right? quote:Clearly some of the Libyan people did not admire him because they murdered him. Same Libyans who are sticking up the government militarily today. It's tyranny of the minority with guns. Polls have shown that the majority of Libyans believe that intervention was the right call in hindsight, no matter how much you want to kneejerk against American foreign policy to be the One True Progressive.
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Oct 26, 2013 17:17
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The American intervention in Libya was the best-executed and one of the more justifiable large-scale military actions the United States has made in the last 15 years, though the standard there isn't really very high.
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Oct 26, 2013 20:23
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Maybe you're a racist AND warmongering piece of poo poo. Bombing Arabs sure seems to give you a boner. I'm not the one characterizing an entire country based upon the actions of one terrorist group. That's you.
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Oct 26, 2013 20:57
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Sergg posted:Call me crazy but maybe it's a good thing if Libya splits up into smaller autonomous states. Are the current borders of Libya drawn by an organic process that took into account the wishes and considerations of its native citizens? Or were they drawn by Turkish and Italian imperial powers irrespective of cultural, ethnic, and linguistic differences and subsequently ruled with an iron fist? Same deal with Syria. Were Syria's borders drawn by popular referendum of its constituent people or by a bunch of French and British assholes a thousand miles away? And people fuckin wonder why 'those crazy Middle-Easterners are always killing each other' because they forget the same thing was happening in Europe just a generation before for a lot of the same drat reasons. Well Libya's eastern and western borders have been fairly stable since around 800 AD when Islamic Arab armies came in and took control along the coasts. The southern borders in the desert wasn't fixed until much later, primarily because the deep desert itself was considered a no man's land among all the political entities in the area.
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Oct 26, 2013 21:25
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Clearly some of the Libyan people did not admire him because they murdered him. So did the Oklahoma City bombing prove that the Federal government has lost the faith of the American people? I mean some Americans went through the trouble of killing those Federal employees, which apparently is the equivalent to a majority disapproval.
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Oct 26, 2013 21:40
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cafel posted:So did the Oklahoma City bombing prove that the Federal government has lost the faith of the American people? I mean some Americans went through the trouble of killing those Federal employees, which apparently is the equivalent to a majority disapproval. You don't need a majority of disapproval. Hell, the only major revolution I remember with stats explicitly didn't have majority approval (the American Revolution).
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Oct 26, 2013 21:43
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computer parts posted:You don't need a majority of disapproval. Hell, the only major revolution I remember with stats explicitly didn't have majority approval (the American Revolution).  there is no proof that's accurate, John Adams basically admitted he was making it up.
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Oct 26, 2013 21:48
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JT Jag posted:The American intervention in Libya was the best-executed and one of the more justifiable large-scale military actions the United States has made in the last 15 years, though the standard there isn't really very high. It was also Paris that was really pushing for the intervention and Washington was reluctant. It'd probably be more accurate to call it "the French intervention" with U.S. support. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Oct 26, 2013 |
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Oct 26, 2013 21:51
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Sergg posted:Call me crazy but maybe it's a good thing if Libya splits up into smaller autonomous states. Are the current borders of Libya drawn by an organic process that took into account the wishes and considerations of its native citizens? Or were they drawn by Turkish and Italian imperial powers irrespective of cultural, ethnic, and linguistic differences and subsequently ruled with an iron fist? Same deal with Syria. Were Syria's borders drawn by popular referendum of its constituent people or by a bunch of French and British assholes a thousand miles away? And people fuckin wonder why 'those crazy Middle-Easterners are always killing each other' because they forget the same thing was happening in Europe just a generation before for a lot of the same drat reasons. That's sort of the historical precedent Cyrenaica and Tripolitania are the same territory more or less because Italy invaded them at the same time. It's super loving complicated, but basically there isn't a whole lot of reason for Cyrenaica to be tied to Tripolitania. If not for the oil, some super federalization or just two (maybe three) separate countries would be fine. As it is, well, there's a poo poo ton of oil in the east and a poo poo ton of people in the west. The Cyrenaica's only memory of rule from the west is Gaddafi and they're loath to let a central democracy drown them in votes. The Tripoiltanians, on the other hand, are kinda like hey, gently caress you, you don't get all that oil money just because you happened to be living on top of it. Install Windows posted:Well Libya's eastern and western borders have been fairly stable since around 800 AD when Islamic Arab armies came in and took control along the coasts. The southern borders in the desert wasn't fixed until much later, primarily because the deep desert itself was considered a no man's land among all the political entities in the area. Well, by that logic all of North Africa ought to be one country. Until the Europeans rolled in Tripolitanian looked much more to Tunisia, Cyrenica to Egypt. I can effort post in a bit on it.
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Oct 26, 2013 21:53
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Omi-Polari posted:It was also Paris that was really pushing for the intervention and Washington was reluctant. It'd probably be more accurate to call it "the French intervention" with U.S. support. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Oct 26, 2013 |
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Oct 26, 2013 21:58
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France did Mali mostly on its own, if I recall correctly. They have the whole Françafrique thing going there, admittedly. I think their troops just drove in from bases in the Ivory Coast or Senegal.
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Oct 26, 2013 22:02
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The US support was what enabled it to happen though. Without US intelligence and logistical support the rest of NATO is basically incapable of doing anything more intense than issuing angry press releases. Do you have a source on this? I've been looking for some kind of breakdown by nation on who provided what for that operation for a while now.
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Oct 26, 2013 22:05
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V. Illych L. posted:Do you have a source on this? I've been looking for some kind of breakdown by nation on who provided what for that operation for a while now.
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Oct 26, 2013 22:12
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New Division posted:France did Mali mostly on its own, if I recall correctly. They have the whole Françafrique thing going there, admittedly. I think their troops just drove in from bases in the Ivory Coast or Senegal. V. Illych L. posted:Do you have a source on this? I've been looking for some kind of breakdown by nation on who provided what for that operation for a while now.
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Oct 26, 2013 22:18
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Here is a breakdown of the countries involved in Libya with that lovely infographic that was put out after NATO provided the numbers (which are also provided in spreadsheets). edit: i derp'd
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Oct 26, 2013 22:48
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