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This thread has me wanting to read another Culture book. I have Inversions, Excession, State of the Art and The Hydrogen Sonata left. Which is the best one to go with? My gut tells me Excession.
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Jul 18, 2018 19:56
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Nail Rat posted:This thread has me wanting to read another Culture book. I have Inversions, Excession, State of the Art and The Hydrogen Sonata left. Which is the best one to go with? My gut tells me Excession. State of the art is ok, but it has some non-culture stories in it and I never liked the main one that much. I'd go with excession yeah.
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Jul 18, 2018 19:57
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Excession is one of my favorites, the ending is fun and it's basically all about the minds and how they work together.
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Jul 18, 2018 20:06
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Nurge posted:Maybe it's cribbing on the buddhist idea of a Bodhisattva, where enlightened beings purposefully delay their ascent into nirvana/whatever higher form of existence in order to help others along on the path. That’s one of the reasons the Culture doesn’t sublime (as well as not trusting it 100 percent), they feel it would be lacking in public spirit to stop trying to uplift species that aren’t Involved/are doing some shady poo poo.
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Jul 18, 2018 20:14
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Ugly In The Morning posted:That’s one of the reasons the Culture doesn’t sublime (as well as not trusting it 100 percent), they feel it would be lacking in public spirit to stop trying to uplift species that aren’t Involved/are doing some shady poo poo. Yeah and from the perspective of the Minds, those civilizations could eventually make AIs like Minds, but only if someone helps them along. It's all pretty naive but it makes sense from a certain point of view. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Jul 18, 2018 |
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Jul 18, 2018 20:21
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While cruising along in hyperspace, you suddenly look down and see a primitive crawling toward space. You reach down and flip it over onto its back. The primitive civ lies there, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs, trying to turn itself over, but it cannot do so without your help. You are not helping. Why?
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Jul 18, 2018 20:33
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Prav posted:While cruising along in hyperspace, you suddenly look down and see a primitive crawling toward space. You reach down and flip it over onto its back. The primitive civ lies there, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs, trying to turn itself over, but it cannot do so without your help. You are not helping. Why? It's space hitler.
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Jul 18, 2018 20:46
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Nail Rat posted:This thread has me wanting to read another Culture book. I have Inversions, Excession, State of the Art and The Hydrogen Sonata left. Which is the best one to go with? My gut tells me Excession. Excession is great. Waffle House posted:Lois McMaster Bujold is supposed to be good but I haven’t picked up any of her stuff yet She is and you should. I'd start with The Warrior's Apprentice and go in universe chronologically from there.
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Jul 18, 2018 21:06
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Nail Rat posted:This thread has me wanting to read another Culture book. I have Inversions, Excession, State of the Art and The Hydrogen Sonata left. Which is the best one to go with? My gut tells me Excession. Excession for sure.
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Jul 18, 2018 21:28
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Nail Rat posted:This thread has me wanting to read another Culture book. I have Inversions, Excession, State of the Art and The Hydrogen Sonata left. Which is the best one to go with? My gut tells me Excession. Gonna go with Excession, Inversions and Hydrogen Sonata in that order. Keep an eye out for a special guest appearance from Space GBS 
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Jul 18, 2018 22:09
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Nurge posted:Maybe it's cribbing on the buddhist idea of a Bodhisattva, where enlightened beings purposefully delay their ascent into nirvana/whatever higher form of existence in order to help others along on the path. that's basically how the Culture view themselves, they could have sublimed ages ago but stick around to put their oar in
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Jul 18, 2018 22:12
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goddamnit all both copies of the player of games are checked out at my library
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Jul 18, 2018 22:19
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Nail Rat posted:This thread has me wanting to read another Culture book. I have Inversions, Excession, State of the Art and The Hydrogen Sonata left. Which is the best one to go with? My gut tells me Excession. Hydrogen Sonata is not very good so I would probably pass on that one unless you are really jonesing for more Banks at some point. Banks always has really cool set pieces and at least a handful of fun sci-fi ideas. Sometimes his plots are actually good and sometimes they are just kind of there to move you between set pieces. Hydrogen Sonata is definitely the latter.
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Jul 18, 2018 22:36
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Na'at posted:She is and you should. I'd start with The Warrior's Apprentice and go in universe chronologically from there. and stop at Diplomatic Immunity, because the three books after that are author-written fanfic.
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Jul 19, 2018 00:28
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It doesn’t make sense that subliming makes a mind or a culture suddenly unwilling or unable to help a lesser species advance. Or to stop caring about a species they previously cared about. If someone is very, very happy they don’t just stop caring about helping anyone. And if someone gets very smart or advanced they don’t stop caring. They only way subliming would make a mind or species stop caring is if subliming fundamentally changed how these entities think or what they’re capable of even perceiving. Seeing the universe at some sort of higher level shouldn’t mean that you can no longer sense or care about suffering at a human level. It don’t make no sense.
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Jul 19, 2018 01:17
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The Dennis System posted:It doesn’t make sense that subliming makes a mind or a culture suddenly unwilling or unable to help a lesser species advance. Or to stop caring about a species they previously cared about. If someone is very, very happy they don’t just stop caring about helping anyone. And if someone gets very smart or advanced they don’t stop caring. They only way subliming would make a mind or species stop caring is if subliming fundamentally changed how these entities think or what they’re capable of even perceiving. Seeing the universe at some sort of higher level shouldn’t mean that you can no longer sense or care about suffering at a human level. It don’t make no sense. That is exactly what subliming does, though. IIRC, after a bunch of attempts, a Mind sublimed and came back, and kind of went nuts because it couldn’t even begin to parse its memories of the experience.
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Jul 19, 2018 01:19
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The Dennis System posted:It doesn’t make sense that subliming makes a mind or a culture suddenly unwilling or unable to help a lesser species advance. Or to stop caring about a species they previously cared about. If someone is very, very happy they don’t just stop caring about helping anyone. And if someone gets very smart or advanced they don’t stop caring. They only way subliming would make a mind or species stop caring is if subliming fundamentally changed how these entities think or what they’re capable of even perceiving. Seeing the universe at some sort of higher level shouldn’t mean that you can no longer sense or care about suffering at a human level. It don’t make no sense. It's...just how they're programmed? 
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Jul 19, 2018 01:31
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Waffle House posted:It's...just how they're programmed? True, but a being as advanced as a mind should be able to overcome it’ programming. Ugly In The Morning posted:That is exactly what subliming does, though. IIRC, after a bunch of attempts, a Mind sublimed and came back, and kind of went nuts because it couldn’t even begin to parse its memories of the experience. If subliming changes your thinking process that drastically and makes you incapable of empathy or sympathy, then I think subliming is probably a bad thing. There’s definitely something sinister about it imho.
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Jul 19, 2018 01:44
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The Dennis System posted:True, but a being as advanced as a mind should be able to overcome it’ programming. I think that's just called ascension in the books. Subliming is also a macguffin it turns out
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Jul 19, 2018 01:55
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The Dennis System posted:It doesn’t make sense that subliming makes a mind or a culture suddenly unwilling or unable to help a lesser species advance. Or to stop caring about a species they previously cared about. If someone is very, very happy they don’t just stop caring about helping anyone. And if someone gets very smart or advanced they don’t stop caring. They only way subliming would make a mind or species stop caring is if subliming fundamentally changed how these entities think or what they’re capable of even perceiving. Seeing the universe at some sort of higher level shouldn’t mean that you can no longer sense or care about suffering at a human level. It don’t make no sense. Do you go out of your way to improve the lives of bacteria? To the Sublimed, even the most horrendous suffering is less than trivial. It’s not that they don’t notice or are incapable of help, it’s that from their new perspective everything we think matters is meaningless. Think about how you as an adult feel about the things that made you cry as a child. A broken toy, a scraped knee, some playground injustice. Even with maximum empathy most people cannot muster more than a condescending tolerance of things that, to a child, shake the very foundations of their world.
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Jul 19, 2018 02:31
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Applewhite posted:Do you go out of your way to improve the lives of bacteria? To the Sublimed, even the most horrendous suffering is less than trivial. It’s not that they don’t notice or are incapable of help, it’s that from their new perspective everything we think matters is meaningless. I don’t try to help bacteria because they don’t suffer. If I found out they were sentient and do suffer then I would try to help them if I could. If I’m walking down the street and I see a cat being hurt I’ll absolutely try to help it. I don’t think you think you should try to stop suffering based on whether it’s “meaningful”. If I had godlike powers, I’d stop scraped knees and school yard injustices as well.
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Jul 19, 2018 02:42
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Also there are several examples in the books of Sublimed entities that still take an interest in material affairs. The Dra’Azon in Consider Phlebas and the Chelgarian-Puen from Look to Windward being the most notable.The Dennis System posted:I don’t try to help bacteria because they don’t suffer. If I found out they were sentient and do suffer then I would try to help them if I could. If I’m walking down the street and I see a cat being hurt I’ll absolutely try to help it. I don’t think you think you should try to stop suffering based on whether it’s “meaningful”. If I had godlike powers, I’d stop scraped knees and school yard injustices as well. You’d probably make a terrible god. Check out The Worthing Saga for a pretty good (IMO) dissertation on why an all-powerful, all knowing being wouldn’t and, it is argued, shouldn’t, intercede in the case of every minor scrape and boo boo.
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Jul 19, 2018 02:45
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Interceding against events like the Holocaust brook more discussion, but I’m against you on the scraped knee thing. Perhaps, to a being whose perception of time extends across geological eras as if they were mere moments, even events as catastrophic as mass murder are, proportionately, the scraped knees of an infant civilization.
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Jul 19, 2018 02:48
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Applewhite posted:Also there are several examples in the books of Sublimed entities that still take an interest in material affairs. The Dra’Azon in Consider Phlebas and the Chelgarian-Puen from Look to Windward being the most notable. The Dra’Azon maintain the dead worlds of species that killed themselves off as a way to show how much poo poo sucks in the regular material universe, though. They pretty much just splat any ships that aren’t from the races they’ve let act as stewards and that’s the extent of their interaction with non-sublimed. E: The Dennis System posted:
That’s also a significant part of The Culture’s take on it. Hydrogen Sonata spoiler The reason all sublimed typically vanish at once is because if it’s not an entire civilization going at once as a kind of network, or a Mind/Mind equivalent, they lose all their individuality and kind of evaporate. Also they all have to do it within an hour of each other or the ones to go first will be so far beyond those that went after they can’t relate to each other anymore. Subliming is some crazy stuff. Ugly In The Morning fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Jul 19, 2018 |
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Jul 19, 2018 02:56
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Ugly In The Morning posted:The Dra’Azon maintain the dead worlds of species that killed themselves off as a way to show how much poo poo sucks in the regular material universe, though. They pretty much just splat any ships that aren’t from the races they’ve let act as stewards and that’s the extent of their interaction with non-sublimed. Apparently that’s an unusually high level of interaction.
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Jul 19, 2018 02:57
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Applewhite posted:Interceding against events like the Holocaust brook more discussion, but I’m against you on the scraped knee thing. I probably wouldn’t intercede in a scraped knee-like event, because children need experiences like that to make them become mature adults capable of functioning in this nightmare world we live in. But if I was god, I’d change the fundamental nature of reality and such that suffering in any form wouldn’t and wouldn’t need to exist.
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Jul 19, 2018 03:10
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The Dennis System posted:I probably wouldn’t intercede in a scraped knee-like event, because children need experiences like that to make them become mature adults capable of functioning in this nightmare world we live in. But if I was god, I’d change the fundamental nature of reality and such that suffering in any form wouldn’t and wouldn’t need to exist. At that point wouldn’t the entire universe just be static and pointless?
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Jul 19, 2018 03:20
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The Dennis System posted:I probably wouldn’t intercede in a scraped knee-like event, because children need experiences like that to make them become mature adults capable of functioning in this nightmare world we live in. But if I was god, I’d change the fundamental nature of reality and such that suffering in any form wouldn’t and wouldn’t need to exist. They’re not gods, though, they’ve just moved beyond standard time and space.
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Jul 19, 2018 03:23
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Ugly In The Morning posted:They’re not gods, though, they’ve just moved beyond standard time and space. For all intents and purposes to beings living in the material universe, they are gods.
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Jul 19, 2018 03:30
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Ugly In The Morning posted:The Dra’Azon maintain the dead worlds of species that killed themselves off as a way to show how much poo poo sucks in the regular material universe, though. They pretty much just splat any ships that aren’t from the races they’ve let act as stewards and that’s the extent of their interaction with non-sublimed. Yeah, a lot of that stuff reminds me of the human instrumentality project from Neon Genesis Evangelion. (I don’t usually watch anime.)
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Jul 19, 2018 03:41
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What I think of as super cool about Subliming is the description of how, in the higher dimensions of the Sublimed, the univese is "full." Our universe is, by comparison, mostly empty space even on an atomic level. The dimensions occupied by the Sublime are apparently more solid than empty and that allows for a closer and faster relationship between particles as well as an infinite and continuous expansion of consciousness.
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Jul 19, 2018 03:56
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Iirc there are also a lot of minds that have hosed off and "gone dark" without having sublimed, doing anything from suicide to forever in a "matrix" world of their own making to making dioramas
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Jul 19, 2018 05:04
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The Dennis System posted:I probably wouldn’t intercede in a scraped knee-like event, because children need experiences like that to make them become mature adults capable of functioning in this nightmare world we live in. But if I was god, I’d change the fundamental nature of reality and such that suffering in any form wouldn’t and wouldn’t need to exist. I think, in the books at least, the point was that if you were a god you wouldn't give a poo poo about that anymore No more than you now care about what happens to a protobacteria in Malaysia anyway
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Jul 19, 2018 05:06
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The Dennis System posted:I probably wouldn’t intercede in a scraped knee-like event, because children need experiences like that to make them become mature adults capable of functioning in this nightmare world we live in. But if I was god, I’d change the fundamental nature of reality and such that suffering in any form wouldn’t and wouldn’t need to exist. This quote is probably the best argument against doing a goddamn thing at all if you're a god. That's simply horrifying.
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Jul 19, 2018 10:52
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The Dennis System posted:I probably wouldn’t intercede in a scraped knee-like event, because children need experiences like that to make them become mature adults capable of functioning in this nightmare world we live in. But if I was god, I’d change the fundamental nature of reality and such that suffering in any form wouldn’t and wouldn’t need to exist. Thing is the races aren't individual children falling down, and the metaphor isn't that useful to the reality of barbaric civs. If you see 1 person killing another and you tell yourself it's ok because it's a learning experience, it doesn't mean much to the one that got killed. That person learned gently caress all. I'm guessing this is more like the culture mind thinking behind intervention. The whole culture series is about the morality of intervening and the cost.
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Jul 19, 2018 11:44
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So do guyes agree with the Culture that it is not only ok but a goddamn duty to mess with civilizations less advanced than them? It's the complete opposite of the Prime Directive. As it should be.
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Jul 22, 2018 10:59
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it's the white man's burden
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Jul 22, 2018 16:18
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doverhog posted:So do guyes agree with the Culture that it is not only ok but a goddamn duty to mess with civilizations less advanced than them? It's the complete opposite of the Prime Directive. As it should be. Yeah, Star Trek was like “well, they’re going to have a genocide or race war, but, we’ll just let them handle it”. The Culture is like “Welp, this place is a totalitarian hellscape. Let’s gently caress with it.”
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Jul 22, 2018 16:22
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RFC2324 posted:it's the white man's burden Framed like this it doesn't sound so nice anymore, yeah.
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Jul 22, 2018 16:23
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doverhog posted:Framed like this it doesn't sound so nice anymore, yeah. i mean that is literally one of the major things used to justify colonialism
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Jul 22, 2018 16:27
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