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MikeJF posted:Yeah they're talking about it in part because the show showed that apparently the loving Federation in Star Trek uses prison slave labor gently caress Discovery. Why? Was the Federation was some kind of instant, eternal utopia the instant it was founded?
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Mar 17, 2019 10:47
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ashpanash posted:Why? Was the Federation was some kind of instant, eternal utopia the instant it was founded? Like I gotta speak speculatively because I'm waiting until there's a good chunk of Discovery I can watch in one go with some friends.
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Mar 17, 2019 10:58
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The whole trial in TNG episode one (and its final episode) was about humanity continuing to grow, and overcome the mistakes they've made in the past and continued to make. I'm not arguing that season 1 Discovery wasn't hacky, but Star Trek is not the place I'd go to for subtlety in its portrayal of allegories about current events.
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Mar 17, 2019 11:06
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HIRE. MORE. WOMEN. SECTION 31 OPERATIVES
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Mar 17, 2019 12:40
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I think Discovery would have been a lot stronger if they'd just ditched the three Brian Fuller scripts entirely. A lot of the thematically weird stuff is in those episodes - like the prison labor references - and then the rest of season one seems to be trying to get away from everything set up there as quickly as possible. Burnham being an ex-con is basically dropped entirely, the Klingon War ends up taking a backseat to anything and everything else, and in general, the characters lighten up a lot.
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Mar 17, 2019 13:03
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Geekboy posted:They talk about the legacy of Trek and what the burden of that means to them. I'm pretty pro-DISCO at the moment, but I gotta say if you find the legacy of a universe to be a "burden" maybe this isn't the job for you. You sure as hell never heard Russell T Davies, Stephen Moffat, or Chris Chibnall complaining that continuity was and legacy and staying true to the themes of the past 40 years of Doctor Who was a "burden." And they managed to change and modernize Doctor Who quite a bit.
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Mar 17, 2019 13:13
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ashpanash posted:The whole trial in TNG episode one (and its final episode) was about humanity continuing to grow, and overcome the mistakes they've made in the past and continued to make. I'm not arguing that season 1 Discovery wasn't hacky, but Star Trek is not the place I'd go to for subtlety in its portrayal of allegories about current events. Arguing that we'd revert to basically capitalist slavery after the world is united and we're in space seems a bit crazy though.
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Mar 17, 2019 13:44
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Taear posted:Arguing that we'd revert to basically capitalist slavery after the world is united and we're in space seems a bit crazy though.
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Mar 17, 2019 13:51
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Taear posted:Arguing that we'd revert to basically capitalist slavery after the world is united and we're in space seems a bit crazy though. Why? I look around at a world more advanced and prosperous than ever and yet full of rampant problems rapidly approaching an ecological catastrophe.
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Mar 17, 2019 13:52
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Whalley posted:It is, but you forget Tasha Yar comes from a planet infested with rape gangs. Discovery's just being explicit about all the stupid dumb bullshit dark stuff in the background of Star Trek that made our eyes roll when it got said out loud. Even in TNG, colony worlds were almost always shithole planets (or magical utopias) but the Federation itself, especially the core worlds, and especially Star Fleet, were aspirationally evolved
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Mar 17, 2019 14:02
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The Bloop posted:Even in TNG, colony worlds were almost always shithole planets (or magical utopias) but the Federation itself, especially the core worlds, and especially Star Fleet, were aspirationally evolved Except colonies are all we ever see, so there’s no real textual evidence of this beyond what members of the Federation tell us.
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Mar 17, 2019 14:05
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Phylodox posted:Except colonies are all we ever see, so there’s no real textual evidence of this beyond what members of the Federation tell us. Sadly true other than the academy and Chateau Picard, although that context is strong. We see a bit more in DS9 and VOY. The pre9-11 post9-11 episodes with Grandpa Sisko being pissed about troops and security is a great example
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Mar 17, 2019 14:12
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Whalley posted:It is, but you forget Tasha Yar comes from a planet infested with rape gangs. Discovery's just being explicit about all the stupid dumb bullshit dark stuff in the background of Star Trek that made our eyes roll when it got said out loud. It would be a nice little reference to have then visit the new colony of Turkana IV at some point.
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Mar 17, 2019 14:14
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ashpanash posted:Why? I look around at a world more advanced and prosperous than ever and yet full of rampant problems rapidly approaching an ecological catastrophe. Capitalism has been eliminated in Star Trek. And Tasha's planet specifically wasn't in the federation although it wasn't ever really explained how human colonies outside the federation exist.
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Mar 17, 2019 14:18
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Taear posted:Capitalism has been eliminated in Star Trek. It really hasn’t. The society depicted in Star Trek is basically just post-scarcity capitalism. Even in Encounter at Farpoint, Crusher is buying fabric at the bazaar. No one starves or freezes or goes without, but there’s obviously still capital and trade.
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Mar 17, 2019 14:21
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Taear posted:Capitalism has been eliminated in Star Trek. Phylodox posted:It really hasn’t. The society depicted in Star Trek is basically just post-scarcity capitalism. Even in Encounter at Farpoint, Crusher is buying fabric at the bazaar. No one starves or freezes or goes without, but there’s obviously still capital and trade. Wungus fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Mar 17, 2019 |
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Mar 17, 2019 14:27
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Phylodox posted:It really hasn’t. The society depicted in Star Trek is basically just post-scarcity capitalism. Even in Encounter at Farpoint, Crusher is buying fabric at the bazaar. No one starves or freezes or goes without, but there’s obviously still capital and trade. Season 1 of TNG is all over the place with that, but at the end of Season 1 they say it explicitly to the unfrozen people and in DS9 it's clear there's no capitalism any longer for the Federation. Even in TNG season 1 in episodes like Symbiosis and anything involving the Ferengi they're pretty disgusted by the pursuit of profit. Whalley posted:Capitalism has been 'eliminated' in the Federation, not in all of Star Trek. Human colonies outside the Federation are presumably just a bunch of chuds who said "well gently caress you i'm taking my ball and going to a new planet with blackjack and hookers and you can't stop me" There's the Marquis and presumably Tasha's people but we don't really know enough about the human colonies that specifically are deliberately outside the Federation.
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Mar 17, 2019 14:47
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Taear posted:Season 1 of TNG is all over the place with that, but at the end of Season 1 they say it explicitly to the unfrozen people and in DS9 it's clear there's no capitalism any longer for the Federation. Even in TNG season 1 in episodes like Symbiosis and anything involving the Ferengi they're pretty disgusted by the pursuit of profit. Here's a tip: the members of the Federation are full of poo poo. They talk a big game and act holier-than-thou because they don't obsess over the contents of their bank accounts, but Miles and Julian are still there in Quark's buying drinks and holosuite time.
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Mar 17, 2019 14:49
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The year 2019 has taken such a toll on us all that we now actively hate the idea of our fictional Star Trek utopia.
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Mar 17, 2019 14:52
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It’s reasonable to assume the Federation provides some kind of generous UBI to citizens stationed offworld so that they can still engage in trade and have things that aren’t just replicator pattern #348-A. You can’t have them just replicate the local currency because then you’d had starships regularly loving up the local economy.
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Mar 17, 2019 14:55
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Whalley posted:My good-faith assumption is that if they're going to a planet that still engages in financial trade, members of Starfleet can commission a wad of bills to take down to the surface, kinda like an intergalactic petty cash box that doesn't need to be refilled. That would be an interesting take; someone within the Federation who has to work with currency-using cultures so that both parties get a fair deal. You could even say well, with the replicator there's no need or want or anything, but you still need to power the things. So Bob can either use part of his department's power budget to replicate some wacky future chemicals to do science with straight away; or he can tap up Federation Procurement, have them deal with the Ferengi, and get his science stuff within six weeks. Then embezzle the power credits anyway
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Mar 17, 2019 14:58
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so I could say that I finally figured out what this god damned cube is doing. Get well Lowtax.
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Big Mean Jerk posted:It’s reasonable to assume the Federation provides some kind of generous UBI to citizens stationed offworld so that they can still engage in trade and have things that aren’t just replicator pattern #348-A. You can’t have them just replicate the local currency because then you’d had starships regularly loving up the local economy. Yea, definitely. Bashir and O'Brien have infinite resources to go to Quarks and use the holosuites, they're just not greedy enough to take it up constantly. Capitalism is ended in the federation, the show tells us that loads even if it's not 100% perfect at showing it.
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Mar 17, 2019 14:58
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Drone posted:The year 2019 has taken such a toll on us all that we now actively hate the idea of our fictional Star Trek utopia. yeah what the heck! Trek is supposed to be humanity at its best dealing thoughtfully with interesting problems! All these people who crave gritty dark trek where ideals are fake garbage and cynicism rules is giving me a lot of insight into who exactly DIS is for and why it is the way it is, though. Currency makes no sense for the Federation, where presumably using replicators or transporters you could produce unlimited amounts of money or goods basically for free
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Mar 17, 2019 14:59
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Phylodox posted:Here's a tip: the members of the Federation are full of poo poo. They talk a big game and act holier-than-thou because they don't obsess over the contents of their bank accounts,
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Mar 17, 2019 15:00
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DS9 makes a big deal out of how the Ferengi have a difficult relationship with the Federation, because while Federation citizens are great customers and enjoy luxuries and vices, the Federation's ideals are an ideological threat to their way of life, especially hu-mons, who explicitly abandoned capitalism and see it as a dangerous, barbaric relic that almost destroyed the world. And Ferengi are frequently used as representatives closer to modern-day Western humans on a cultural level.
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Mar 17, 2019 15:03
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Ghost Leviathan posted:DS9 makes a big deal out of how the Ferengi have a difficult relationship with the Federation, because while Federation citizens are great customers and enjoy luxuries and vices, the Federation's ideals are an ideological threat to their way of life, especially hu-mons, who explicitly abandoned capitalism and see it as a dangerous, barbaric relic that almost destroyed the world. And Ferengi are frequently used as representatives closer to modern-day Western humans on a cultural level. The Ferengi don't hate the Federation because they've given up capitalism, they hate them because they're bad (and hypocritical) at it.
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Mar 17, 2019 15:29
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Ghost Leviathan posted:DS9 makes a big deal out of how the Ferengi have a difficult relationship with the Federation, because while Federation citizens are great customers and enjoy luxuries and vices, the Federation's ideals are an ideological threat to their way of life, especially hu-mons, who explicitly abandoned capitalism and see it as a dangerous, barbaric relic that almost destroyed the world. And Ferengi are frequently used as representatives closer to modern-day Western humans on a cultural level. plus the hu-mons kept making fun of their cool space whips
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Mar 17, 2019 15:35
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Taear posted:There's the Maquis and presumably Tasha's people but we don't really know enough about the human colonies that specifically are deliberately outside the Federation. 90% of Federation-descended space colonies are basically Space Libertarians building their versions of Space Rapture/Space Sea-Standing nonsense. This is exactly why they wind up turning into rape gang infested hellholes or maquis idiots or who knows what else, it's because they were intentionally being morons from the start because the Federation wouldn't let them be their level of moron within their society.
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Mar 17, 2019 15:36
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I don't think the prison stuff in Discovery is too jarring. The Federation has the death penalty in TOS.
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Mar 17, 2019 15:45
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Old Story posted:plus the hu-mons kept making fun of their cool space whips And the ferengi keep losing brilliant scientists and engineers who don't want to be business-people and so go over to that space utopia that doesn't use money and values things besides business sense and has a generous immigration policy.
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Mar 17, 2019 15:46
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EimiYoshikawa posted:90% of Federation-descended space colonies are basically Space Libertarians building their versions of Space Rapture/Space Sea-Standing nonsense. Citation needed? They definitely make Tasha and the Marquis seem like exceptions rather than the rule. marktheando posted:I don't think the prison stuff in Discovery is too jarring. The Federation has the death penalty in TOS. Yea but TOS also has the "Star Fleet" invading Vulcan and all sorts of stuff.
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Mar 17, 2019 16:08
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marktheando posted:I don't think the prison stuff in Discovery is too jarring. The Federation has the death penalty in TOS. TOS’ take on crime and punishment is quite interesting really. In “Dagger of the Mind”, prison is a remote colony, run by a single man, a doctor who claims to be able to cure criminality through medical technology. McCoy is skeptical about this approach from the first (“a cage is a cage”) but Kirk is quite blithe about the idea, saying that these new modern prisons are more like resorts. The rest of the episode sets out to prove Kirk wrong with a strong anti-prison message: Spock comments acidly on the irony of addressing criminal acts of force by forcible confinement at all, but in the event these modern prisons which pathologize criminal behavior are more like a nightmare from The Prisoner than a resort or even the Scandinavian-type prison system that Kirk seems to be actually expecting. The most interesting thing about the episode is that the warden, Dr Adams, isn’t some kind of madman or megalomaniac. There’s no indication that he was anything other than a guy doing what he figured was the logical consequence of his philosophy on the treatment of criminals, and the Federation was ok with giving him a planet and a bunch of criminals to work it out on. Later in “Whom Gods Destroy” you get a repetition of this idea that in the Federation’s eyes, criminality is a curable form of madness — it can’t be beaten out of someone, but it can be teched out if we can just find the right tech. The death penalty seems like a vanishingly rare thing by comparison. Even in this show the Federation doesn’t execute people (according to Cornwell of all people, last season).
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Mar 17, 2019 16:13
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Isn't the death penalty in the Federation only applied for a single crime: violating General Order 7 (visiting Talos IV)? (Put Michael Burnham and Spock to death is what I'm saying)
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Mar 17, 2019 16:18
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Taear posted:Citation needed? They definitely make Tasha and the Marquis seem like exceptions rather than the rule. There was also that colony genocided by the governor turned shakespearean actor in Conscience of the King. Taear posted:Yea but TOS also has the "Star Fleet" invading Vulcan and all sorts of stuff. Ehh I wouldn't make that comparison, unlike those things death penalty comes up a couple of times. With Pikes forbidden planet and also when Kirk is talking the computer to death in Ultimate Computer he says the penalty for murder is death. skasion posted:TOS’ take on crime and punishment is quite interesting really. In “Dagger of the Mind”, prison is a remote colony, run by a single man, a doctor who claims to be able to cure criminality through medical technology. McCoy is skeptical about this approach from the first (“a cage is a cage”) but Kirk is quite blithe about the idea, saying that these new modern prisons are more like resorts. The rest of the episode sets out to prove Kirk wrong with a strong anti-prison message: Spock comments acidly on the irony of addressing criminal acts of force by forcible confinement at all, but in the event these modern prisons which pathologize criminal behavior are more like a nightmare from The Prisoner than a resort or even the Scandinavian-type prison system that Kirk seems to be actually expecting. The most interesting thing about the episode is that the warden, Dr Adams, isn’t some kind of madman or megalomaniac. There’s no indication that he was anything other than a guy doing what he figured was the logical consequence of his philosophy on the treatment of criminals, and the Federation was ok with giving him a planet and a bunch of criminals to work it out on. Later in “Whom Gods Destroy” you get a repetition of this idea that in the Federation’s eyes, criminality is a curable form of madness — it can’t be beaten out of someone, but it can be teched out if we can just find the right tech. The death penalty seems like a vanishingly rare thing by comparison. Even in this show the Federation doesn’t execute people (according to Cornwell of all people, last season). It's true that like most things in TOS the approach to crime and punishment isn't very consistent.
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Mar 17, 2019 16:22
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Big Mean Jerk posted:It’s reasonable to assume the Federation provides some kind of generous UBI to citizens stationed offworld so that they can still engage in trade and have things that aren’t just replicator pattern #348-A. You can’t have them just replicate the local currency because then you’d had starships regularly loving up the local economy. "Captain, we have a problem. Crewman Malarkey bought an entire city while he was on shore leave. Again."
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Mar 17, 2019 16:30
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Big Mean Jerk posted:It’s reasonable to assume the Federation provides some kind of generous UBI to citizens stationed offworld so that they can still engage in trade and have things that aren’t just replicator pattern #348-A. You can’t have them just replicate the local currency because then you’d had starships regularly loving up the local economy. Yeah I figure that's the only explanation for why Starfleet personnel could visit Quark's bar and the holosuites on DS9. Especially since Latinum can't be replicated.
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Mar 17, 2019 16:37
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The maquis suck boooooooo
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Mar 17, 2019 16:43
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Pakled posted:Yeah I figure that's the only explanation for why Starfleet personnel could visit Quark's bar and the holosuites on DS9. Especially since Latinum can't be replicated. Just realized this means that somewhere on each Starfleet ship there’s a giant provisional bank where they hand out local currency. “Where are we this week? Gamma Genus IV? Ok ensign, here’s your stipend of 40,000 Roddenberries. Sorry you don’t have any pockets and each coin is a wooden block.”
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Mar 17, 2019 16:56
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I assume New Sydney is a ex-Fed colony based on its name. As of DS9 it's being taken over by the Orion Syndicate and it's Ezri's home in case anyone blacked out that episode.
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Mar 17, 2019 16:59
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Taear posted:It's the truth. It isn’t, though. It’s still hopeful and good. This “fascism” stuff is nonsensical. At best, folks didn’t like the influence Lorca had on people. And he turned out to be the bad guy. The prison stuff is pretty consistent with how inconsistent Trek has always been about this stuff. Sure, it could be better. The hyperbolic “worst Trek ew everything is worst ever it is ruined ew cry cry” ad nauseum is so last season, though.
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Mar 17, 2019 17:10
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