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Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

sullat posted:

Men with swords don't starve (first)

What about the men who make the swords?

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Slavvy
Dec 11, 2012

The men who make the swords take their stock buyback profits and move to Monaco

DJJIB-DJDCT
Feb 1, 2024

Tekopo posted:

SCS is a simplified, low-complexity operational combat game which I think is regiment-sized, focuses on entire campaigns, I don't think it's very good.
BCS is battalion-sized grand tactical/semi-operational, usually focused on single battles (think Kasserine etc), it's focus is more on maneuver warfare than anything else. No real supply tracking.
OCS is a regiment-sized operational combat game that focuses on entire campaigns, both in North Africa, post-Normandy and Eastern Front. It forces you to track supply and makes supply the most important aspect of the game.
GTS is a company-sized grand tactical game that focuses on artillery and suppression and mostly deals with weird/unusual battles and invasions, or last-stand type games. No real supply tracking.
ASL is a squad-sized tactical game that does nitty-gritty tactical combat and has about 1000 different expansions and scenarios.

Dunno about the others.

Thx, that’s actually really helpful.

There was no way I’d have the time to play all of them to compare them, or really even learn the rules

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

gradenko_2000 posted:

since "Masters of the Air" is out, this game is topical again



rolled-up another mission between meetings

quote:

Mission 3

Target: Amiens, Rail Yard

Formation Position: Middle

Automatically Good fighter cover

Flight Log Gazetteer for Amiens
Zone 2: -2 / W
Zone 3: 0 / F

Zone 1: leaving England

Zone 2: no German fighter attacks

Zone 3:
Weather over target: Good

One German fighter wave

Fighter wave composition: one Me-109, 12 High
Fighter cover defense: escorts drive away the one attacking fighter

Bombing run

Flak over target: Heavy flak

Heavy flak 1: Hit, three shells
Shell 1: Radio room; radio out - cannot call for Mayday, penalty if forced to land on water
Shell 2: Tail; control cables - 1st hit has no effect, but damage will accumulate
Shell 3: Tail; autopilot mechanism - bomb run roll at -2 penalty

Heavy flak 2: Miss

Heavy flak 3: Hit, three shells
Shell 1: Port wing - aileron hit, but no effect
Shell 2: Tail - tailwheel damaged, landing roll at -1 penalty
Shell 3: Starboard wing - aileron hit, rendered inoperable [no effect so far, but has penalties if both ailerons are inoperable]

Bomb run roll (at -2): off-target

Bombing accuracy: zero bombs within 1,000 feet of aiming point


B-17 starts flying back to England

Zone 2:
One German fighter wave

Fighter wave composition: three Me-109s; 12 Level (A), 12 High (B), 1:30 Level (C)
Fighter cover defense: escorts drive away (B) and (C), and will drive away (A) after the first firing pass

(A) attacking from 12 Level
B-17 defensive fire: top turret misses, nose gunner misses
(A) makes firing pass, and scores two hits
Shell 1: superficial damage
Shell 2: nose; superficial damage

(A) is driven off by escorts

Zone 1

Landing (at -1): crew and B-17 safe

sure, it was a complete waste of time to miss the target, but at least nobody died!

Tekopo
Oct 24, 2008

When you see it, you'll shit yourself.


I really like those experience generators once in a while, the hunters was basically that but uboats and was pretty cool

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
speaking of which, Microprose dropped an extremely unfinished remaster of B-17 Flying Fortress: The Mighty Eighth onto Steam to capitalize on the buzz from Masters of the Air

it's exactly the same game as the old one with exactly the same graphics for almost everything, except that they've done some really lazy and bad AI upscaling of the UI graphics (it's especially obvious on the squadron insignia, where the text is gibberish).

still, the game was really good before and it's still really good now, and the 'remaster' does have one clear improvement, which is that it runs natively on modern screen resolutions with support for windowed mode and alt-tab.

Typo
Aug 19, 2009

Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

Mister Bates posted:

speaking of which, Microprose dropped an extremely unfinished remaster of B-17 Flying Fortress: The Mighty Eighth onto Steam to capitalize on the buzz from Masters of the Air

it's exactly the same game as the old one with exactly the same graphics for almost everything, except that they've done some really lazy and bad AI upscaling of the UI graphics (it's especially obvious on the squadron insignia, where the text is gibberish).

still, the game was really good before and it's still really good now, and the 'remaster' does have one clear improvement, which is that it runs natively on modern screen resolutions with support for windowed mode and alt-tab.

welp there goes another chapter from my childhood

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Mister Bates posted:

the 'remaster' does have one clear improvement, which is that it runs natively on modern screen resolutions with support for windowed mode and alt-tab.

the other thing is that it Just Works as far as recognizing gamepads for joystick controls

Tekopo posted:

I really like those experience generators once in a while, the hunters was basically that but uboats and was pretty cool

I just went down a rabbit-hole of tracking down these games and it's cool that it's an entire series now: WWI uboats, US fleet boats, Japanese I-boats, and then a second U-boat title called "The Hunted" that starts in 1943

gradenko_2000 has issued a correction as of 16:15 on Feb 26, 2024

Skaffen-Amtiskaw
Jun 24, 2023

Just gonna put the Amiga 500 version I also had on my Steam Deck and be done with it.

DJJIB-DJDCT
Feb 1, 2024

Real heads are playing Target For Today

Skaffen-Amtiskaw
Jun 24, 2023

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

Real heads are playing Target For Today



What system’s that on?

Lostconfused
Oct 1, 2008

Skaffen-Amtiskaw posted:

What system’s that on?

A desktop or a tabletop.

DJJIB-DJDCT
Feb 1, 2024

Skaffen-Amtiskaw posted:

What system’s that on?

Oh man, I've unironically been ranting and raving about this game system. Legion Games developed it, rules Here. They also have Target For Tonight (Bomber Command), a B-29 game, and a B-26 game and Italy expansion for Target for Tonight in the works.

Tabletop nerds, please explain posted:


"TARGET FOR TODAY" is an advanced version of Glen Frank's renowned Avalon Hill game "B-17, QUEEN OF THE SKIES." While it builds on the legacy of its predecessor, it stands as a wholly new game; owning "B-17, QUEEN OF THE SKIES" is not a prerequisite for playing. This game introduces new tables and organizes rules by the sequence of a typical mission, making individual missions quick and straightforward to play. The campaign game, representing a player's tour of duty, is detailed and immersive, balancing realism with playability.

Players are encouraged to first familiarize themselves with the rules and then undertake a few practice missions to random targets to grasp the game mechanics. Once comfortable, players can incorporate optional rules to enhance the game's realism. Some rules are marked as "Optional" to allow beginners, or those seeking a faster game, to omit these sections for simpler gameplay.

1.2 GAME EQUIPMENT

Included in your game box are:

- Battle Board
- Rules Manual
- Game Tables Manual
- Target Listing & Gazetteer Manual
- Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions Manual
- 5 Mission Log Sheets for B-17F, B-17G, YB-40, B-24D, and B-24J Bomber models
- 5 Crew Placement Sheets for B-17F, B-17G, YB-40, B-24D, and B-24J Bomber models
- Bomber Group Game Formation Board
- Composite Mission Record
- Zone Worksheet
- Counter Sheet with 1.2" Aircraft Counters (56 each)
- Counter Sheet with .6" Game Markers (176 each)
- Two Six-Sided Dice
- Two Ten-Sided Dice

1.3 DICE

"TARGET FOR TODAY" requires two six-sided dice and two ten-sided dice of different colors. The notation "1D6" refers to rolling one six-sided die, yielding a result between 1 and 6. "2D6" involves rolling two six-sided dice and adding their results, which can range from 2 to 12. For some tables, "1D6 + 1D6" indicates that one die represents the tens digit and the other the ones digit, generating a two-digit number between 11 and 66.

For ten-sided dice, "1D10" means rolling one die for a result between 1 and 10, with "0" representing ten. "1D10 + 1D10" requires specifying one die for the tens digit and the other for the ones, yielding numbers from 1 to 100. A roll of "00" is interpreted as one hundred, not zero.

It goes GURPS level hard with some of the systems, which I think it really cool (though would work better as a computer game for most people), simulating every part of the weather, aircraft, crew psychology. Target For Tonight has all of the radars, countermeasures and other EW elements of the night offensive, which is both impressive and kind of insane.

DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 16:56 on Feb 26, 2024

Skaffen-Amtiskaw
Jun 24, 2023

I really should get into tabletop stuff, but all the people I know in meatspace are either not into such gaming, or only do the odd DnD campaign and nothing where I get to call fire missions or use political intrigue.

Basically, you guys come over here and entertain me, pls. I got Twilight Struggle on Steam and pondered playing the original board game with my old man. Though he’s more a chess and Scrabble guy…

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

quote:

Tabletop nerds, please explain

I don't have Target For Today, but if people are interested I could do a play-by-play of the next time I roll through a mission of Queen of the Skies - rolls, table lookups, the works

[QOTS eventually did also get "expansions" to cover Lancasters, the 15th Air Force (Southern Europe), Mitchells, and even Mitchells in Asia]

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Twilight Struggle is the game that got me into modern wargaming. It's pretty simple and while it takes ~2 hours there's never more than a few minutes of downtime. The one hitch is the complexity mostly comes from knowing the event deck and figuring out the best way to manipulate it, so new players are being blindsided by poo poo all the time while vets can predict exactly what your hand is

DJJIB-DJDCT
Feb 1, 2024

Skaffen-Amtiskaw posted:

I really should get into tabletop stuff, but all the people I know in meatspace are either not into such gaming, or only do the odd DnD campaign and nothing where I get to call fire missions or use political intrigue.

Basically, you guys come over here and entertain me, pls. I got Twilight Struggle on Steam and pondered playing the original board game with my old man. Though he’s more a chess and Scrabble guy…

They're solitaire games, which can either be really rewarding or drive you crazy. I ended up getting cube4me organizers for all my solitaire games like Beneath the Med and Warfighter pretty much for that reason, starting organized really helps.

In terms of the systems, because it's solitaire, you can sit down and think, it's not as maddening going through the tables, playing cards and rolling die for something like "bombardier's gloves are lost in chaos, roll for frostbite", "bombardier with mildly frostbitten hands must roll to operate bombsight with -2" or whatever.

This is just me, but I play solitaire games with a book on the subject open, because it's like a reading prompt. For Beneath the Med, I end up thumbing through my book on Italian submarines in a detailed and focussed way I otherwise wouldn't, because I want to make the correct decision in the game. I think it's neat, but it may not be for everyone.

I think it's worth trying though, it's like playing Bomber Crew or the Mighty Eighth in analogue. The Hunters (the German version of Beneath the Med) is also very good, though the Hunted is more of a challenge.




Typo
Aug 19, 2009

Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

StashAugustine posted:

Twilight Struggle is the game that got me into modern wargaming. It's pretty simple and while it takes ~2 hours there's never more than a few minutes of downtime. The one hitch is the complexity mostly comes from knowing the event deck and figuring out the best way to manipulate it, so new players are being blindsided by poo poo all the time while vets can predict exactly what your hand is
new players should just always play soviets, it's much more straight forward

the us side needs way more game/deck knowledge to play

I still need to find someone to play with irl at least once

Skaffen-Amtiskaw
Jun 24, 2023

Didn’t realise it was a solo game Target For Today. May have to grab that then. Now I just need a decent table to sit at which isn’t cluttered with books and controllers.

StashAugustine
Mar 24, 2013

Do not trust in hope- it will betray you! Only faith and hatred sustain.

Typo posted:

new players should just always play soviets, it's much more straight forward

the us side needs way more game/deck knowledge to play

I still need to find someone to play with irl at least once

Yeah that's the other wrinkle with teaching: the Soviets are much easier to play with the specific exception of them needing to be really on the ball in the early game

DJJIB-DJDCT
Feb 1, 2024

In terms of table space, they don't seem that bad actually.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

Skaffen-Amtiskaw posted:

Didn’t realise it was a solo game Target For Today. May have to grab that then. Now I just need a decent table to sit at which isn’t cluttered with books and controllers.

for what it's worth I'm doing this all from a computer:



it looks like Target for Today has a VASSAL module and the rules in PDF, so you could do something similar with it

Skaffen-Amtiskaw
Jun 24, 2023

gradenko_2000 posted:

for what it's worth I'm doing this all from a computer:



it looks like Target for Today has a VASSAL module and the rules in PDF, so you could do something similar with it

That rocks. :D

Tekopo
Oct 24, 2008

When you see it, you'll shit yourself.


gradenko_2000 posted:

the other thing is that it Just Works as far as recognizing gamepads for joystick controls

I just went down a rabbit-hole of tracking down these games and it's cool that it's an entire series now: WWI uboats, US fleet boats, Japanese I-boats, and then a second U-boat title called "The Hunted" that starts in 1943
Also one for italian subs in the med as well which I need to get down to playing

Edit: I did an entire narrative LP for The Hunters a long time ago, it was a lot of fun but even in The Hunters, no one managed to survive until the end.

Tekopo has issued a correction as of 17:54 on Feb 26, 2024

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

Skaffen-Amtiskaw posted:

I really should get into tabletop stuff, but all the people I know in meatspace are either not into such gaming, or only do the odd DnD campaign and nothing where I get to call fire missions or use political intrigue.

Basically, you guys come over here and entertain me, pls. I got Twilight Struggle on Steam and pondered playing the original board game with my old man. Though he’s more a chess and Scrabble guy…

I been playing Twilight Struggle on Steam with a fellow goon for a few months now. It's good fun.

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
I never understood the appeal of solitaire games in a world where PC gaming exists but the older I get the more my childhood (and, uh, adulthood) of staring at screens all night every night is catching up to me, and the thought of a solo gaming experience that isn't going to give me an eyestrain headache is starting to sound a lot more attractive

Orange Devil
Oct 1, 2010

Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!
Be careful of developing neckpain though.

Rodney The Yam II
Mar 3, 2007




True, the chronic injury table is unforgiving if you roll with age modifiers

Tekopo
Oct 24, 2008

When you see it, you'll shit yourself.


I hope you like tanks because the latest GTS LP has them, found here

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
finishing the final chapters of Bidwell's "Fire-Power":





I wonder if you could replicate or emulate this kind of warfare in games. I know that War in the East lets you stack a disgusting amount of artillery "Support Units" in HQs to the point where you can drop over a thousand artillery pieces in a single ten-mile hex, and I know People's General encouraged the use massive amounts of artillery because of their 6-10 hex range and their better flexibility over air power, and of course HOI lots you arty spam a lot and it's usually a perfectly good idea to do so.

Maybe Panzer Corps / Order of Battle where you buy lots of arty for your core? Strategic Command? A lot of games have their OOBs locked in so it can get tricky.

Fuligin
Oct 27, 2010

wait what the fuck??

Arty is great in UoCII and soviets have a unique 'artillery preparation' card that lets them absolutely ream w/ good positioning

Western Allies by comparison can put up to three attachments on their divisions to represent their overwhelming material advantage; three arty steps on a veteran division will annihilate anything it fires upon

DJJIB-DJDCT
Feb 1, 2024

gradenko_2000 posted:

finishing the final chapters of Bidwell's "Fire-Power":





I wonder if you could replicate or emulate this kind of warfare in games. I know that War in the East lets you stack a disgusting amount of artillery "Support Units" in HQs to the point where you can drop over a thousand artillery pieces in a single ten-mile hex, and I know People's General encouraged the use massive amounts of artillery because of their 6-10 hex range and their better flexibility over air power, and of course HOI lots you arty spam a lot and it's usually a perfectly good idea to do so.

Maybe Panzer Corps / Order of Battle where you buy lots of arty for your core? Strategic Command? A lot of games have their OOBs locked in so it can get tricky.

How about a game designed to use historical artillery doctrine?

Battlefront WWII, British Artillery: To them that have much will be given

Fantastic article, intro posted:

As with all participants in World War I, the British had considerable experience with the calculations necessary to deliver effective indirect fire. In addition, they came up with a really simple system that used map grid references, brought about by the hyper-accurate mapping of the Ordnance Survey. Previous calculations had required that you know the position of the observer relative to the guns and the position of the target relative to the observer. Then you could use trigonometric functions to figure out where to point the guns. The map grid reference system required that you know the position of the target and the guns relative to a map and did not require the position of the observer. This decreased the time needed to deliver fire on a target to approximately 2-3 minutes from the call-for-fire to the arrival of the shells. The British sacrificed some accuracy for speed, and their larger patterns tend to be somewhat wider than those of their American cousins. This was acceptable because the aim of British artillery was often not to destroy the enemy with fire but to neutralize him to make the job of other units easier.

Although their tactics up to regimental level were established in the pre-war period and did not change much during the war, in 1941 Brig HJ Parham, the CRA (Commander Royal Artillery) of 38 Division, invented and tested new procedures for coordinating fire from higher echelon assets. These culminated in demonstrating a 144 gun concentration (approximately 6 regiments) against an opportunity target within 5 minutes of the target being called. In mid-1942 XIII Corps conducted further trials and new doctrine was issued late that year. Under the new doctrine, each Corps had an AGRA (Army Group Royal Artillery) directly attached to it, which was a brigade-sized formation comprised entirely of artillery and designed to provide swift and devastating fire support to all Allied units within its range. An AGRA in NW Europe typically consisted of one Field Regiment, four Medium Regiments and a Heavy Regiment. By 1945 these were supplemented by a Super Heavy Regiment and Land Mattress rocket launchers. AGRAs were also formed in the Mediterranean and the Far East, though composition varied.

The standardized concentrations of this new doctrine were known as Mike (regiment), Uncle (division), Victor (corps), William (army) and Yoke (army group) targets and always initiated by the radio call "Mike Target, Mike Target, Mike Target" (or Uncle, etc) that galvanized Command Posts and guns to action. This system allowed them to put vast amounts of firepower in the hands of a single Observer, combining fire from diverse missions into an overwhelming single strike (although usually in Battlefront you will not see the largest missions). This system gave them one of the two most effective artillery systems used in World War 2 (the other being that of the U.S.-partisans of both systems can conduct a theological argument about which was "best"-the Germans didn't appreciate being on the receiving end of either of them).

The British were also very skilled at preparatory barrages, and preplanned fire, and many scenarios can start with several turns of pre-planned barrages or concentrations.

British Artillery was never "in reserve", even if the combat formation it was supporting was not in contact with the enemy. It was available for use on targets within range. There were two basic command and control relationships:

'Under Command'; and

'In Support', which made firepower available, normally all guns within range, and enabled firing across divisional and higher formation boundaries. In this respect the British Artillery system was more flexible than the American, as American commanders occasionally felt proprietary towards the artillery formations assigned to them.

The consequence of these simple arrangements was highly flexible mobile firepower that could be provided where and when it was needed. 'Under Command' meant that control was centralized under the commander, while 'In Support' meant decentralization. Typically a regiment 'under command' of a division would be 'in support' to a particular brigade, but this did not prevent it firing in support of formations to its flanks.

British Artillery can be classified:

Command - High level. The British commanded their artillery from a high level. This allowed them to share assets and prepare massive strikes.

Control - Low-medium level. Battery Forward observers were able to order strikes from their own batteries and request strikes from almost any level in their hierarchy. Even though the ability to call for fire was limited to trained observers and officers, the British generally deployed many observers and they worked closely with the formations they were supporting.

Communications - Good. Forward observers utilized both radios and ground lines and this allowed them to rapidly place calls-for-fire.

This, you already know from reading Fire-Power, but how they put it in a game is extremely cool.

DJJIB-DJDCT has issued a correction as of 09:55 on Mar 4, 2024

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
Age of Rifles is now on Steam.

Unfortunately it looks like most of the old scenario depository websites are long gone, but somebody was able to recover a few hundred from the old Wargamer Scenario Depot, available on the Internet Archive here: https://archive.org/details/wargamer-depot_age-of-rifles

There appears to be a Paris Commune campaign buried in there, although all the documentation for it is in French.

Also a Northwest Rebellion campaign, a Ludlow Massacre scenario, and a few others I am looking forward to trying.

Mister Bates has issued a correction as of 07:35 on Mar 5, 2024

Typo
Aug 19, 2009

Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

Mister Bates posted:

There appears to be a Paris Commune campaign buried in there, although all the documentation for it is in French.


:thunk:

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
https://twitter.com/HuntClancy/status/1765143499018522914

DJJIB-DJDCT
Feb 1, 2024

Poles weren’t anywhere near there though, their DZ were in Driel.

KomradeX
Oct 29, 2011

DJJIB-DJDCT posted:

Poles weren’t anywhere near there though, their DZ were in Driel.

Yeah wasn't that an American drop zone?

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy

KomradeX posted:

Yeah wasn't that an American drop zone?

Sure was!

KomradeX
Oct 29, 2011


Its been like 2 decades since I last watched a Bridge Too Far, I need to rewatch it soon

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Danann
Aug 4, 2013

movies like a bridge too far definitely have a different feel to it due to using a ton of actual people and props compared to war movies these days with a lot of computer images used and how the story focuses heavily on only a few people

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