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I have caught up. I bought Umineko on steam via a recommendation from a goon friend (Thank you, so much). It's sad that you can't buy the answer arc already. But my wallet is open when it releases in 2 weeks. I also just bought the hardcopy question arc from mangagamer. I'm really glad I didn't visit that site at work. Didn't know that they sold that stuff. Time to mass order the manga's. Noticed that they didn't have ep 7 and 8 yet. I'm a little bit ahead of the LP. i'm playing episode 8 now. Wished I could finish it yesterday but alas. This game so far has been amazing. Beato's voice actress is incredible. the laughs, her BATTLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEER screams were great. The soundtrack is amazing. Is there anywhere you can buy the ost? Edit: my apologies for the terrible snipe
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Oct 25, 2017 09:26
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 15:41 |
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Sefal posted:Is there anywhere you can buy the ost? Not really, the tracks (well, almost all of them) have only been released by their composers on their own respective doujin albums. A compilation exist though, so  is basically the only realistic option.
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Oct 25, 2017 11:08
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The soundtrack files are sitting in OGG format in the game directory, you can just pull them out.
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Oct 25, 2017 12:34
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Nice. it's not on spotify right?
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Oct 25, 2017 12:45
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 BGM: Birth of New Witch (instumental)  "Any kids who aren't having a good time'll get eaten!"  ""Yell and sing the praises of tonight's banquet!! Ahhahahahahahahahaha!!""The hall was alive with a mingling of humans and residents of the magical illusion. At first, everyone stayed with their own groups, too nervous to mingle. However, as time passed, people started to move around, and both halves began to chat happily together.  "Anyway, they never listen, do they?!"  "Maybe some subordinates are like that, but I've never had any success with ordinary methods..." "Anyway, you're done for if your subordinates don't take you seriously! It's important to scold people loudly for some small mistake every once in a while, in front of everyone else." "You can't do that! It'll just make everyone scared...! A leader has to be an example for everyone to follow. If you really want to be a leader-"Everyone listened intently to the vegeta-lion's theory on leadership. This was after several rounds of drinks had gone by, and everyone was unnaturally focused on the conversation.   "Don't make it sound so bad. If I want something, I won't let it slip away. I always put that theory into practice. Nothing more to it." "Thanks for waiting, everyone. Even more food is on the way." "...Nnngaahhh...! Butting in on the family party like this... And yet, while I hate to admit it, every movement of his is flawless. Just what sort of hotel did he train at..." "Too bad, Ronove-sama just happens to be totally perfect. But I still love Gohda more. This one's been cooked ju-st right♪"The Seven Sisters had blended into the party perfectly, and were making things interesting.   "It's not like I'm discrediting anything. The purpose of a mystery novel is your own amusement. If you have fun, that's all that matters." "Know that even the great Wizard-Hunting Wright has gone quite soft." "...Both literature and forms of amusement change their guidelines with the times. Surely, mystery novels are no different."Everyone chimed in on Will's theory on mystery novels. The conversation kept on going.   "But... know that the regulations are always to be enforced..." "Just let the new beginners do that. Don't forget that regulations and rules are more like guidelines for the new guys." "You said it. You can't really call yourself an adult until you learn how to move outside the rules. You're still a kid if you let the rules hold you back." "I can't stand letting other people do the work! I'm Mammon of Greed! I'll do all the jobs myself!" "That's some spirit you've got there. How much are they paying you for being a Sister of Purgatory? Come and get a job at my husband's business. I'll recommend you personally."The humans and the residents of the illusion were now completely on casual terms.   "Yeah nyeh, you've got it nyeh! Where we come from, you pour the tea onto the saucer, press your palms on the table, and slurp it up like a dog nyeh!" "Wh, what the hell are you teaching her?! Who does things like that?! And Natsuhi, what do you think you're doing, getting tricked like that, and at your age!!" "Satan...! How can you be so rude to Natsuhi-san...!! Huh? Wh, why are you crying, Satan? D, did I scold you too hard...?!" "Chiester 410-san, please stop giving my pure and trusting mother such crazy ideas. Don't worry, I made sure it wouldn't leave a mark."410 started yelling about animal abuse, jumping around in circles and holding her butt.   "If I fell in love, could I be a beautiful princess too?" "Of course! Love is a miracle, power, a mineral!! It grants you invincible strength!" "...*giggle*. The person who once claimed love equals lust seems to be saying something." "Indeed. It would seem she's getting her fill every night, heheheh!" "Sh, shut up, you perverts!!"The circle surrounding Beato was always a lively one.   "I get nervous when I don't have any orders! Someone order me to do something, or I'll die!" "You can't have that attitude! You've got to find your own meaning for your life, cut your own path!" "That's right. Your resolve has to be certain and absolute, right? Back when I was human, I lived like a daredevil all the time...!"A bit shakily, Lambdadelta started talking about her theory of life. Apparently, she'd also had her fair share of champagne.   "*giggle*. Yeah, I guess so. Dlanor-sama, would you like some more to drink?" "Something non-ALCOHOLIC. I am a kid, after ALL." "Ah, Shannon-chan will do. Do you have a second?"Battler came back into the hall. He was searching for a servant, and the first one his eyes met was Shannon.  "Of course, Battler-sama. Do you need something?" "Sorry, but would you mind lending me the key to the parlor?" "The... parlor...? The master keys can open that, but why?" "Well, I was just wondering if Ange was asleep, so I went over there. The door was locked." "Locked...? After we carried Ange-sama to the sofa, we shut the door, but we didn't lock it." "...Ah, don't tell me Ange... She must have felt like she was being left out of the fun, and locked the door from the inside in a huff. Silly kid." "*giggle*. Shall we unlock it, then?" "Yeah, if you don't mind. Sorry about the trouble."Battler and Shannon left the hall together. In the hall, Lambdadelta started suggesting that they all have another quiz tournament together. Apparently, the Witch of Certainty would be handing out prizes. Everyone seemed enthusiastic about the idea. Smiling contently at the ensuing uproar, Battler headed towards the parlor.  BGM: None  "Hmmm... I didn't knock on the door in case she was asleep, but if she locked it, that proves she was awake. Let's try knocking once."Battler knocked on the door and called Ange's name. However, there was no response from the other side. He pressed his ear against the door, listening carefully, but there was no hint of Ange unhappily throwing a cushion at it.  "She might have fallen asleep after having her little tantrum. Could you open it for me?" "As you wish."Shannon took out her master key and unlocked the door. Then, she stepped back to let Battler go through. "...Ange... I'm coming in..."Speaking a quiet voice to avoid waking Ange if she was asleep, Battler opened the door. Then, just as the door was opened, a chilly breeze drifted by. The breeze, which felt like outside air, immediately caught the attention of the pair, and they looked at each other. ...It could be seen at a glance that Ange wasn't in the parlor. The curtains to the wide-open window fluttered about.  A blanket lay crumpled up on the sofa. It sat there just as Ange had left it after waking up. The blanket was slightly warm. Clearly, she had been here until a short while ago.  "Ange-sama...? Are you there...?"She obviously wasn't playing hide-and-seek. Ange was nowhere to be seen in the parlor. Battler peered out the open window into the rainy blackness. So, she slipped out the window in this rain and went... where? "Do you think Ange-sama might have gone out the window...?" "...That'd make her one hell of a sleepwalker."She couldn't have left from the main entrance, so she probably doesn't have an umbrella. It was very hard to imagine a reason Ange might have for going outside in this weather. I have a bad feeling about this. This shouldn't be happening. I'm the Game Master of this game board. So why are we in a situation that the Game Master can't understand...? A large bolt of lightning lit up the surrounding area for an instant, but I was unable to see any trace of Ange...  At that moment, there was a roar of thunder and the lights flickered. The cheery voices vanished in an instant, like candles being blown out.  Amidst the silence, one voice rang out and answered Lambda's riddle. The crowd parted, and the form of a girl, a thousand year old witch, came into view. She had been invited. She was an official guest, holding an invitation to this party...  BGM: 599 Million Ruins As Bernkastel spoke, she looked around at everyone...  "..." "Ooh. And I thought you'd wasted away in the Fragment sea." "They're my pieces now. Pretty cool, right?" "...Hmph."She stared at Lion and Will with an unnerving smile on her face, but she apparently lost interest quickly.  "Where's Battler? And Beato? I'm a guest, aren't I? Isn't there anyone to welcome me?"  "We did invite you, but I didn't expect you to actually come. I see, so this must be a miracle." "Now there's an interesting thing to say. *giggle*... Why'd everyone get so quiet? This is a party, right? Go ahead and be noisy just for the hell of it. Or is welcoming me with silence supposed to be some kind of joke...?" "Now it's your turn." "...My turn for what?" "You asked where Battler was. So I told you. Now it's your turn." "What are you talking about? Did something happen...?" "Ange's gone. Even I, the Game Master, don't know where she went." "That's insane...! Isn't this your game?! That doesn't make sense...!"  "Is that even possible...?!" "Oh, yes, I was surprised myself. Just when I opened the game board to start a delightful game of my own, I found that Battler had started up this bizarre game at the same time. What a crazy world we live in..." "In other words, you're admitting that you hid Ange away somewhere." "...It would seem so. After all, no one could create a scenario not invented by the Game Master... except for another Game Master." "Would this be... those festivities to liven up the party that you mentioned?" "...All of you looked like you were having a blast with that quiz tournament. So, I decided I wanted to join in." "And you decided to hold Ange hostage to do that?" "You've got it. Battler, Beato. I want to challenge you to a game. You cannot refuse. Not if you treasure Ange as a little sister, that is." "...What do you want?" "Lambda and I made a bet about the game between you and Beato. I must acknowledge that I've lost. At least, that I've lost to Lambda." "*giggle*giggle*. Bern tries to act all dry, but she cares about things way more than she looks. So, you're saying you lost to me, but not to Battler and Beato?"It seemed as though Bernkastel might smile. However, she didn't. Those cold eyes spoke without words. Battler understood. He had played so many games against Beato. Those games had been a wordless message from Beato. So he knew. He understood.  BGM: Grey Empty Smile "...She will be a fearsome opponent." "But we can't back out." "I know that. We mustn't let Ange become Lady Bernkastel's plaything."Beato understood as well. She understood why Bernkastel was asking for one, final battle...  "...Hard to believe Bern's fighting up front." "Is that funny?" "Why would it be?" "Thanks." "..."Lambdadelta understood as well. Before the tale of Battler and Beato ended, before everything was locked away in the cat box... Bernkastel would finally move from the audience to the stage. That witch who had hidden off to the side of the stage, unwilling to come out into the light, would now show she had the courage to step forward onto the stage itself. As a friend, Lambdadelta showed that she understood Bernkastel's human emotions, which had given her this courage... "Is there anything I can do?" "Please act as an observer for my game." "...Sure. If you can promise you'll release Ange if we take part in your game." "Of course. Without such a promise, we are not obligated to go along with your farce...!" "You might not be obligated, but that won't change the fact that Ange's not coming back..." "In that case, you can enjoy being branded as a loser for the next few centuries." "Beato, don't provoke her. This isn't a fight we can back down from." "...Y, yes." However, Lambdadelta was making Bernkastel promise to release Ange, in exchange for her agreeing to become an observer. Without that promise, Bernkastel would have nothing to lose. To make this final fight Bern wanted a proper one, Lambdadelta made her agree to that promise. "...Of course, Lambda. I promise. When the game ends, I'll release Ange." "Don't make a fool of me, okay...? When I get shamed, I never let go of the one who did it until they regret it..."Lambdadelta spoke in a soft, threatening tone. However, Bernkastel laughed lightly as though the look on Lambdadelta's face was merely cute. "I swear it. I swear it on our friendship." "...Whew."Lambdadelta whistled and grinned. Apparently, this was the most reliable oath Bernkastel could utter. "Okay."Lambdadelta nodded, looked between Battler and Bernkastel, and spoke.  After Battler and Beato nodded at each other, they nodded at Lambdadelta to show their determination. "...I'm so glad. We finally get to fight each other." "I had a feeling I'd end up fighting you sooner or later." "Since when?" "...I'm not sure. It might have been before I even learned your name."Battler vaguely remembered her speaking to him, somewhere in an unconscious world he couldn't remember. At the time, it had sounded like she was giving him advice for his fight with Beato. But thinking back on it, it was a little different. She might have been a cat fighting from the sidelines, too scared to go out into the bright sunlight. So, I had a vague premonition that, eventually, we would stand opposed to each other on the game board in some way... "...She's also one of the players. Now, at the very end, as the game board is being put away, she's finally found the courage to step up onto the stage. I want to accept your brave challenge. By the name of that courageous girl who once was your piece." "I forced Erika to fight a duel. I wanted to win. And, even more strongly, I didn't want to lose. The fear of possibly tasting defeat tormented me. And, thinking back on it, I envied you two back then." "..." "...Erika was a great piece of yours... and my rival. I won't forgive you for abandoning her in the end and laying her to rest in the depths of oblivion." "Just what do you want me to do...? Apologize to Erika?"  "...Save...? Erika...?" "I feel the same as Battler. She was a piece who stood in opposition towards us, but she was only faithfully fulfilling her role. There can be no game without a rival. She remains our enemy, but she's also an important friend to us." "...Even though she made you suffer so much...?" "We fought a fair fight. The outcome may have changed our fates, but now that we've dueled each other, we'll always be friends." "..." "You want to be their friend too, don't you Bern? That's why you want a fair fight with them now, isn't it?" "...Are you laughing at me?" "We aren't." "On the contrary, we welcome it." "...Even though I've taken a hostage?" "If you didn't, you probably wouldn't have come up onto the stage."There had been no need to take a hostage. If Bernkastel wished it, Battler and Beato were willing to accept this final duel. It was hard to make out anything from Bernkastel's silent expression.  "...What's okay?" "...I'll release Erika from the depths." "You've really made your mind up about this."For someone as proud as Bernkastel, forgiving the piece who had caused her defeat should have been nearly unbearable. Battler knew this, so he realized how much this bit of compassion had cost Bernkastel... Bernkastel snapped her fingers, and a black cat slipped out of her shadow. "I tossed her all the way into the deepest parts of oblivion. She might be late in arriving." "It matters not. There's no danger of the food and drink running out." "...Go, kitty. Guide that kid here."When she gave this order, the cat melted into the darkness, its bell jingling. "I can hardly believe that you'd forgive Erika." "...I don't plan on forgiving her. So, she's not my piece anymore. Anyone feel like picking her up? After all, you already picked up Lion and Will." "...Bernkastel. You have my thanks." "Okay, enough with the sentimentality. I've already had as much as I can bear." BGM: None "...Lady Bernkastel has shown the courage to stand before a great many people already. There is no point in making her suffer any longer." "Good point. Then let's make it the usual place." "Any objections, Bern?" "...None." "Sorry, partygoers...! We'll be heading out for a bit, but please continue to enjoy yourselves! Zepar, Furfur! Liven this place up! When Erika gets here, let's have everyone give her a warm welcome." ""Yes, Lady Lambdadelta!! Your wish is our command!!"" "Now then, let us take her to the usual room, a fitting place for our battle of wits...!" BGM: Hikari Bernkastel had been invited there once again, and the final game would now begin... "...Do you have a game prepared?" "Of course. I worked hard on this game, and I'm pretty proud of it." "So, Bern will be the Game Master, and Battler and Beato will be the players? The usual game, where Bern creates a murder tale, and the two players have to reconstruct it with human tricks?" "I'm interested to see what sort of scenario Lady Bernkastel develops." "...We'll explain things with the blue truth, and you'll knock those down with the red truth. Are we alright with those rules?" "...My game will be a simpler one. It's just a quiz of guessing the culprit. I don't feel like trading red and blue with you." "Oh...? What kind of game will that be...? Would you mind letting me have a look at it first?"Bernkastel held her palm upwards... and a palely glowing Fragment appeared there. Lambdadelta brushed it with her hand and shut her eyes...  "You're right... It's much more straightforward than the mind games these two played in the past. This isn't even a game about witches and humans anymore." "That's right. This is a game about humans." "...What a surprise. The game Bern's created to combat Beato's fantasy... is a genuine mystery." "Please explain." "It's extremely simple. You'll watch the tale Bern has prepared for you. There are several rules to it, but if you follow them as you read it through, it'll lead you to a Single Truth... in other words, an answer." "So, it's an ordinary mystery novel?" "I see... In that case, there's no need for combat between red and blue truth."In Beato's games, the argument was about whether it was a mystery or not. However, Bernkastel's game was a mystery. There was no need to argue that from the start. "I've even cut out the motive and the tricks. There's only one question I'm asking you." "...What a simple, yet fitting game to conclude our fight." "Yeah. No cheap tricks. Just a stoically simple game." "This is a genuine duel..." "As the observer, I'll say this. This game is 'made to be solvable'. In other words, I guarantee that it's a suitable setting for your duel." "...Bern, I know I keep on saying this, but are you really sure? Battler and Beato's relationship started because they both loved mystery. I agree it's a pretty tricky scenario, but I'm not sure it'll be enough to stop these two..." "...If my best tale can't stop them, then what comes will come." "The important thing is that Lady Bernkastel put everything she had into this game." "You're right. Will that be enough to stump us? That's all this simple game is about. Thanks, Lambda. Thanks to you, we know that this duel will be a fair fight." "You're welcome. I'm happy too. It'll be an honor to witness Bern fighting this precious fight." "I am also honored to have you as an opponent." "...Same here. I underestimated you. And I did it without even stepping into the battlefield. Just thinking about it makes me want to vomit. So let me fight." "Yes. Show us what you've got." "If I win, I'll be able to look down on you for real this time. And if I lose, I'll surely be reminded of that emotion I know I've forgotten." "Indeed." "...Bernkastel. Whether you win or lose, I'll promise you one thing." "...What's that?" "When this duel is over, we'll be friends." "...Hmph. Enough of that, please. The sentimentality is killing me."Lambda clapped her hands. A pleasant sound rang out.  BGM: Answer "...I don't need a Reader." "Huh?" "...A Reader miko can use her own voice to embellish or distort the tale. Even if there was no cheap trickery in my game, by having a Reader, any amount of trickery could be added." "Yes, that is true. That's another of the Game Master's privileges." "I want to have a straightforward duel with you. So, I don't need a Reader. You can read this tale with your own eyes and ears." "Are you sure...?! That means you've lost almost all of your advantages...!" "...Got it. You don't need a Reader. We'll read the tale ourselves." "If there is no Reader, doesn't that mean there will be absolutely no falsehoods contained in the narrated text?" "We're ready, Bernkastel." "..." "A showdown over a genuine mystery, without any cheap tricks. If you're going to play fair and square, we'll challenge you head on too." "...Thank you. And I don't plan on losing either." "Tch, tch, tch. That's no good, Lady Bern." "...?" "She's right. If you're a witch challenging us with a mystery, it's no use having an attitude like that. Yeah, it's all useless...!"Bernkastel, realizing what Battler and Beato were asking for, snorted. Lambdadelta nodded at her, telling her to enjoy this final duel to the fullest.  "We wouldn't have it any other way! Yes, we'll take your challenge, Lady Bernkastel, Witch of Miracles!" "Alright, time to start!! I, Game Master Ushiromiya Battler, and Beatrice, the Endless Witch, will be your opponents! Don't start crying when we wipe the floor with you!!" "Just try and handle this! Here's my mystery!!!"Bernkastel took a Fragment holding the game and smashed it against the table, shattering it with a brilliant light as the game's scenario laid itself out. The curtain rose... on the mystery Bernkastel had created...  BGM: Eternal Chains  "..."At some point, Ange had fainted and fallen to the floor. Now, her consciousness was slowly returning, forcing her to remember what had happened in this room. So, she reflexively averted her gaze even before the memory overtook her. Six bodies lay in the blood-stained dining hall. Strangely enough, as her consciousness returned bit by bit, the terrifying scene before her seemed somehow less intense. So, this time, Ange was able to look at the six corpses well enough to make out who they were.  And, lying next to them, were Uncle Hideyoshi and Aunt Eva. Both Uncle Hideyoshi, the uncle who always said something funny and made me laugh... and Aunt Eva, the aunt who seemed to be so fond of me... Genji-san, the servant, is lying over there. And, the one lying right here, is Aunt Rosa. Six people. A full six people... had their lives taken from them, and are lying in this room... Maybe I cried myself out before I fell unconscious. The scene before me was still terribly painful, but I was somehow able to look at it without losing my head. So, I'd already felt all the sadness I could at my parents' deaths. The next emotion that rose up inside me... was a desire to check and see that everyone else was okay. In that instant, she heard a scraping sound. Just as she was about to relax again, thinking she must have imagined it, she heard the same sound again. It was probably coming from the door. Someone was clawing at the door from the outside. Of course, she had no way of knowing who it was. However, for some reason, Ange was sure that it was that black cat scratching at the door. The black cat was telling her to leave this room. Ange understood and put her hand on the doorknob. ...? I immediately noticed something odd. The door was locked. The same bad feeling I'd felt after being locked in the parlor crawled up my spine. However, unlike the time in the parlor, this door unlocked itself easily when I turned the knob. I unlocked it... and slowly opened the door...  Then, it stopped, its emerald eyes glittering in the darkness, as though it was waiting for me to follow. "..."The hallway was dark... and wrapped in an eerie silence. When the black cat saw that I was coming, it walked forward as if guiding me. I could hear nothing except the creaking of the floor, the bell of the cat, and the sound of the storm outside. ...The party is being held in the hall. I should be able to hear at least a little of the noise from this hallway... "...Maybe it got really late... while I was unconscious in the dining hall..."It was a reasonable conclusion. Then, we finally reached the main hall. The hall was frigid, and no trace of that party remained. Could all of that fun have been... just an illusion...? The black cat's bell rang out. When I looked up, I saw it had its feet on the stairway to the second floor... urging me to follow it. "...Are you going to the second floor...?"  Guests were allowed to go wherever they wanted on the first floor, but the second floor was Krauss's family's house, and I remembered getting in trouble for trying to go up there. However, at that moment, I couldn't think of any options... other than following that cat... I walked along the dark hallway with the black cat. Eventually, we reached one of the doors. The black cat scratched at the door, then turned to look at me. It must have been telling me to open it. "Okay... I'll open it for you..."I put my hand on the doorknob... and felt the resistance of a lock again. This door is locked. I turned around to tell the cat this, but... inexplicably... a single key lay right in front of the cat. Ange picked it up and stuck it in the keyhole. As she did, she finally noticed something strange with her fingertips.  BGM: Infant Queen Bee Somehow, Ange's fingertips had been stained red with blood. She let out a short cry, and the key slipped out and fell to the ground. She finally realized. In the darkness, she hadn't noticed before. The black cat's key... was covered with blood... The emotions that had gone numb in Ange sprang back. A terrified scream rang out through the dark hallway... Even so, Ange would eventually open that door. That door... led to Natsuhi's room. Natsuhi's room was a terrible mess. Blankets and sheets were torn. Cosmetics and books lay all over the place, as though a typhoon had just ripped through it. And... there were the corpses.  Very shortly, Ange will step into this room. She will then scream in terror once more... And it wasn't just the dining hall and Natsuhi's room. In the stormy rose garden... Shannon's corpse lay exposed to the rain. Partway down the path to the rose garden... was Jessica's corpse. When Ange finds that, she'll probably dash crying and screaming into the guesthouse. And... death awaits her inside the guesthouse as well. Just inside the front door... is Nanjo's corpse. In the servant room nearby, even Gohda and Kumasawa lie dead.  A full 13 corpses are waiting for Ange. They wait in the mansion and the guesthouse on this desolate Rokkenjima... for Ange, exposed to the wind and rain and tormented by thunder, to find them... 
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Oct 25, 2017 13:40
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All right, so Battler, George, and Maria are the ones who are missing, under the assumption that we're again on a gameboard where Kinzo is dead and Kanon can't be running around separate from Shannon, yes? When we're told that the narrative can't lie in the absence of a Reader, does that mean that a body being given a name and called a "corpse" in the text is sufficient to guarantee that the corresponding person is in fact dead, i.e., the 13 victims listed in this update are indeed dead and not faked or faking it?
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Oct 25, 2017 14:38
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Consider the above to be the prologue/setup, and not part of Bern's game board. That will be very clearly laid out, along with its rules.
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Oct 25, 2017 14:42
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Confused Llama posted:under the assumption that we're again on a gameboard where Kinzo is dead and Kanon can't be running around separate from Shannon, yes? These seem like two very dangerous assumptions to make at this point. Hell I'm not even willing to rule out Ange as a suspect this early on. Gotta assume for this final battle that everything we've learned already is useless, and this story will be solved only by it's own rules and our combined intellects.
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Oct 25, 2017 16:21
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oh boy lamdadelta you shouldn't underestimate bernkastel. from your previous games you should know just how she operates..................................wait.........oh how clever bernkastel. Victory in this game will come at a steep price. Not for battler or beatrice but for Ange. Battlers game (a sort of party to celebrate the game itself) also was intended to let ange move on. I think bernkastel plans on using ange (she is still berns piece too) to destroy what battler was attempting to do. Well i guess we will see her "simple" game. Also remember impossible is not the same as improbable.
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Oct 25, 2017 16:33
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Even though I know by now that Bernkastel is almost sure to throw any kindness Battler offers her in his face as a knife, I do like Battler's enduring kindness and compassion. Part of being kind can be deliberately leaving yourself vulnerable in order to reach out to someone else. It's admirable that Battler is willing to do this over and over even with someone he should not logically trust, simply because he believes that it's worth it if he can genuinely help her. This applies to Bernkastel, but it also applies to Beatrice, and Erika.
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Oct 25, 2017 17:45
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Bernkastel is the best. My theory on the culprit, in the absence of evidence, is going to be that it's Erika, who we know, but are supposed to have forgotten, actually is a mortal character who exists on or near Rokkenjima in 1986 and not just a witch's piece or the personification of some object or another. It's just the type of misdirection that would be fun, and Will and Dlanor admitted that it's possible for there to be a masterpiece that does not obey the laws of Dine/Knox (in this case, the "Chinaman" one) as long as it's fun.
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Oct 25, 2017 18:08
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Kytrarewn posted:Bernkastel is the best.
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Oct 25, 2017 19:21
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Well, well. How interesting. Let's start the fight, then. I will make no assumptions until we've seen the rules and the game itself. This is just the prologue. I must say it's nice to see everyone casually interacting, though.
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Oct 25, 2017 20:18
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Well I'm going to still wait to see where this witch breaks her word. This empty left behind of a small girl has no friends. Not after what her origin story.
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Oct 26, 2017 00:09
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Kytrarewn posted:Bernkastel is the best. I do enjoy that in retrospect, the inclusion of the Taiwan thing probably started as part of a deliberate attempt to break all the rules
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Oct 26, 2017 00:40
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  BGM: Waltz Op. 34 Gohda, who had woken up to get breakfast ready, went to check on the adult siblings, who had remained in the dining hall since the previous night because of the family conference.  "Talk about when you discovered the crime." Oh dear, it looks like we've run into another text color. From now on, purple text will be represented by bold, italic Courier, because purple is the midpoint between red and blue.  "That's when I arrived. I recommended that he try unlocking the door, just in case." "When I unlocked the door with a master key, a terrifying sight awaited me inside..." "Eva-sama, Hideyoshi-sama, Rudolf-sama, Kyrie-sama, Rosa-sama, and Genji-san, six people in all, were lying there, covered in blood..." "A great tumult followed. Everyone gathered in the dining hall." "I don't want to remember it... The sight of all the sobbing children crouched over the corpses of their own parents..." "There was a chance they might've been alive still. Everyone was shaking them desperately." "But it was no use... The death of each parent was confirmed by their own child..." "Doctor Nanjo and I confirmed that Genji-sama was dead." "It was such a terrible way to be killed... No one will mistakenly confirm a death, even those other than myself." "Looks like all of the victims died instantly... Kihihihihi." "After inspecting the interior of the dining hall, we determined that all of the doors and windows had been locked, making it a closed room." "And nothing suspicious was found inside the dining hall." "Of course, there was no one hiding in the dining hall either." "Naturally. All of us are here right now. It's clear that no one is hiding." "But Dad, if that's true, it doesn't make sense... Six people were killed, and the dining hall's a closed room! How could someone have killed them and escaped?!" "...I'd rather not think of it, but perhaps the servants with their master keys are the most suspicious." "They killed the six, then left and locked the door with their master keys. It is a logical theory." "E, eeek! Th, that's absurd!"Since there was no chance of the culprit hiding inside the dining hall, it made sense to assume that the culprit had locked the door after committing the murder and exiting the room. It was only natural that the servants, with their master keys, would fall under suspicion. And, sadly enough, none of the servants had an alibi. Then again, it wasn't only the servants. Everyone else lacked an alibi as well.  "No, there isn't. Hmm, that's not enough. I'll say it with the red truth." "There you have it. Any other questions?" "Shouldn't there be keys to each individual room in addition to the master keys?" "...Normally, those would exist. However, they'd make the game more complicated, so I've eliminated them. Red truth. In this game, we'll consider master keys to be the only keys that exist." "In other words, all of the locks that appear in this game can only be locked or unlocked by master keys." "That's how it is. It really is a simple game." "In that case, we should now check the number of master keys and who holds them." "There are five master keys total. One is held by each of the five servants. The keys'll be managed by a particular method. The servants keep the master keys on their person at all times, so it is impossible for them to be stolen, handed over, or used by any human other than themselves." "What the heck. Now they're sounding less like keys and more like a fingerprinting system." "That's an interesting metaphor. In other words, in the world of this game, it isn't the master keys, but the five servants themselves that can lock or unlock doors."  "To prevent trouble later on, we destroyed Genji's master key."This was the crime of the first twilight. The scene was the locked closed room of the dining hall. None of the servants holding master keys have alibis. Then again, no one else has an alibi either...  BGM: Deep Blue Jeer  The phones were out, so they couldn't contact the police. Was the mysterious culprit hiding away somewhere, planning to attack their next victim at this very moment? Or was the culprit in here with them, mentally sticking out their tongue and tasting their next prey? None of them had alibis, and it was possible for any one of them to be a culprit... However, that tense feeling didn't last long. By midday, everyone got tired of arguing, and they decided to take a break. Krauss and Natsuhi announced that they wanted to talk with each other alone and went up to the second floor. That was the beginning, and after that, everyone went their separate ways now and then, such as to head to the bathroom or gaze at the endless rain. However, no matter how much time passed, Krauss and Natsuhi were the only ones who didn't return. Calls were sent to both Krauss and Natsuhi's rooms using the extension phone line, but there was no answer. Something might have happened.   "After getting everyone's permission, I unlocked the door..." "Krauss-sama and Natsuhi-sama lay sprawled on the floor inside the room." "Doctor Nanjo checked their pulse. Then, he announced that the two of them had died instantly." "Correct. I confirmed both of their deaths. There can be no doubt that they died instantly." "I searched all over the room, looking for a clue...! In the end, I found that the windows and doors were all locked, making it a closed room." "Another closed room! And yet again, we servants who have master keys will be suspected...!" "B, but have no fear...! After Madam began to suspect us, we started keeping an eye on each other!" "All of us servants were together the whole time." "All of us servants can prove an alibi for all of the other servants." "...In the case of the first closed room, no one had an alibi. So, for this closed room, all of them have alibis." "In this world, the servants themselves become living master keys. Since those servants have perfect alibis, it was impossible to lock Natsuhi's room..." "We put duct tape all over the outside of the doors and windows, sealing them!" "I'm sure the culprit left some sort of clue in this room! We made sure that no one would be able to enter or leave until the police arrived!" "Then, we did the same to the dining hall. We also sealed the dining hall in the same way." "We reached the conclusion that the entire mansion itself should be preserved. We also sealed the mansion itself, and all of us took refuge in the guesthouse." "...The game would get complicated otherwise, so I've simplified it. All of the windows had steel bars on them, so it is impossible to enter or leave by them. Therefore, we'll say that they can seal the whole mansion by sealing the two doors, the front one and the back one." "Got it. That makes it easy." "What do you think?" "Actually killing the two people in Aunt Natsuhi's room would be easy. Someone just had to knock and get them to open the door. However, they couldn't lock it afterwards." "Only the servants can lock doors, but all of the servants have alibis." "Unless the servants are all in it together. More importantly, the first twilight has me suspicious." "You think that one of the six who died in the dining hall was actually alive and committed the crime?" "It's because of Erika. I can't help but be suspicious when people are examining corpses." "So, you think that one of the first six victims was alive?" "Yeah. And afterwards, they killed Krauss and Natsuhi. Then, they locked the door from the inside, hid inside the room, and found a good chance to escape." "Hmm, that theory does make logical sense." "Then I'll take a shot with the blue truth. Here is the true nature of this closed room. The culprit locked the door from the inside, then hid in Natsuhi's room. Then, after everyone left, they found an opportunity to escape." "...Sure, I'll deny that in red. The group sealed the room at the same time they left. No culprit joined the group as they left. Also, all of the seals on Natsuhi's room, the dining hall, and the mansion itself will not be broken." "Heheheheheh. In other words, you can't use that trick where they hide under the bed and slip out later." "...Interesting. Nice going, Bernkastel." "Thanks."This was the crime of the second twilight. The scene was Natsuhi's room, a locked closed room. This time, all of the servants with master keys have alibis. The whole group, realizing the dangers of being inside the mansion, took shelter in the guesthouse...  BGM: Happy Maria! (instrumental)  There, if everyone watched everyone else, they should be able to prevent further crimes both from inside and outside. However, they couldn't do that without any breaks until the typhoon passed. Once again, their actions left a weak point open, and they were faced with yet another tragedy.  "George nii-san got upset, so we all went outside to look for them." "We found Shannon-chan lying there in the rose garden. Oh, poor, poor Shannon-chan..." "I prayed she was still alive. However, I was forced to acknowledge that she was dead..." "Of course, I also examined her and confirmed her death." "When the two of them left, we were busy checking the locks around the guesthouse. So, not one of us has an alibi...!" "Me, kill her?! How could I have killed her?!!" "That's right. George onii-chan couldn't kill her, uu-." "Later on, we learned that George nii-san alone had an alibi. At least regarding Shannon's death, it was impossible for George nii-san to be the murderer." "To turn it around, anyone could have killed her besides George-aniki." "To prevent the culprit from using it for any mischief, we destroyed the master key Shannon-san had held on the spot." "Well, I thought it'd be rude, so I kept quiet about it, but that's what happens when Shannon dies." "In other words, we can say that Shannon and Kanon were killed at the same time, even though we're missing a corpse?" "That's right." "...Hmm. Looks like the crimes are moving along."This was the crime of the fourth twilight. The scene was the rose garden. There are no locks or doors. It isn't a closed room. So, the master keys no longer have anything to do with this. Then, the pace of the crimes began to accelerate...  BGM: Waltz Op. 34  They carefully sealed all doors and windows, locking themselves in a closed room. However, several closed room murders had already occurred. Could locking themselves in a closed room do anything more than invite another tragedy? After arguing fiercely in the cousins' room about finding the culprit, they decided that they should double-check Nanjo, Kumasawa, and Gohda's testimony. And there, they learned that a tragedy had occurred once more.   "Like hell they could survive after this...! Gohda-san and Kumasawa-san are both dead!" "Well, we have been busy, keeping a lookout and locking up and all that. Once again, none of us has an alibi." "That's not true. Look. Considering the way they were killed, the culprit would definitely get blood spatter on themselves." "But Doctor Nanjo and all of the cousins have no blood on them." "All of us... in other words, the four cousins and Doctor Nanjo couldn't have killed Gohda-san and Kumasawa-san." "In that case, it's clear that the culprit is someone other than us." "I guessed that someone might have snuck in, so I checked around, but the guesthouse was still completely locked up." "Perhaps the culprit has a master key after all..." "That's impossible. No master keys exist anymore except the two keys on the two people who lie dead here." "Since the two master keys that exist are here inside the guesthouse, that makes this guesthouse a perfect closed room...!" "Well, since someone's dead, it obviously wasn't perfect. Kihihihihihihihihi..."This was the crime of the fifth and sixth twilights. The scene was the closed room known as the guesthouse. Gohda's and Kumasawa's master keys were also destroyed, meaning that all master keys have now been lost. Now, no one can break into this closed room guesthouse. At least, that should have been true...  BGM: Kina no Kaori  His body was found in the entrance hall of the guesthouse. It was far too foolish of him to come here alone to check that everything was locked.   "Even I... can say for sure that this was an instant death..." "Everything is locked up perfectly. How did it happen, if this is a closed room?" "Then that means the culprit is one of us...!" "Impossible! Judging by the circumstances, Maria, Battler, George nii-san and I all couldn't have killed Doctor Nanjo!" "In the first place, no one could kill Doctor Nanjo inside the guesthouse!" "And look at this. Simply put, this is proof that Doctor Nanjo didn't leave the guesthouse...!" "Then that means no one could kill Doctor Nanjo, right? So why was he killed?"No one could answer that innocent question. This was the seventh twilight. Once again, the crime scene was the closed room known as the guesthouse. Various bits of evidence made this crime seem even more impossible. Then, the tragedy reached the eighth twilight, the final one.  BGM: Rurair  Jessica might have chosen anger as a way to numb her fear. She flew out of the guesthouse in a rage, searching for the culprit that she was sure hid somewhere outside. George, Battler, and Maria hurriedly chased after her. Then, outside the building, they found Jessica lying on the ground. It was, as anyone could tell by looking, a gruesome corpse...  "There's no way she could live through this. Kihihihihi." "The three of us were together the whole time! George-aniki, Maria and I couldn't have killed Jessica!" "Yeah. The three of us couldn't have killed Jessica." "As if Maria-chan could kill someone. Maria-chan couldn't kill anyone." "Kihihi, thanks. George onii-chan couldn't kill an adult. He could kill a kid though. Kihihihihihi." "Ah, I don't understand it at all...!! What the hell is going on here...?!!"This was the eighth twilight. The crime scene was... outside. However, the three who chased after Jessica have alibis. George, Battler, and Maria couldn't have killed Jessica. So, is there really someone hiding on this island apart from the Ushiromiya family...? The curtain is lowered on this tale, for now...  BGM: Surrounding "It's pretty well-made. If you had a full-on Reader, it'd stand up well against Beato's games." "I agree there. You did a good job." "Well, the real work comes from taking this, Reading it and making it worthy of proper theatergoing." "Still, I'm stumped. On the face of it, the culprit has to be some mysterious person outside the Ushiromiya family." "And that would be the same as acknowledging the existence of a witch. We can also suspect the existence of some accomplices aiding the culprit." "By the way, what was that purple text all about? A new rule?" "Oho... Well, that's nice of you." "Then, are the purple statements as reliable as red truth?" "Yes. You can think of the purple statements as having the same power as red truth. However, there's one exception. The culprit can tell lies with purple statements." "...I see. To turn it around, anyone who isn't a culprit can't tell lies." "Purple statements. These seem to be the key to Lady Bernkastel's game." "Yeah, that's right. I'll explain the rules for my game." "That's all." "The definition of 'culprit' is 'one who murders'... Makes sense." "It is possible for a culprit to lie. That seems reasonable enough too." "It is possible for a culprit to lie even before committing murder. Well, no surprises there." "Characters who are not culprits only speak the truth. Wouldn't that be nice!" "Characters who are not culprits may not cooperate with a culprit, right?" "So, the culprit can't use any accomplices to create an alibi." "drat. My guess was that someone had manufactured an alibi to cover for the culprit, but..." "...Aw, too bad." "A culprit must carry out all murders directly, by their own hands. In other words, there are no remote or indirect methods of murder, like traps." "A culprit must not die. In other words, they can't commit murder, form a closed room, then commit suicide inside it." "And doesn't it also mean that dead people can't be culprits?" "...Hmm. This is a fairly vital piece of information." "A culprit must be among the characters appearing in the story. So, no mysterious strangers sneaking onto the island." "The appearing characters are the same old 17 people after Kinzo is removed. No one else appears in the story, so no one else matters." "Purple statements are as absolute as red truths. However, the culprit alone may lie with purple statements. Now here's a troublesome one." "This could be the heart of this game. Is that all for the game's premises?" "So, you willingly abandon a witch's privileges. You seem quite confident." "She probably plans to win despite that." "That's all from me. I don't intend to give you any more hints or answer any more questions." "As the observer, I'll proclaim this once again. I guarantee that it is possible to pinpoint the culprit with this information." "Okay. Got it." "I can't wait to get started. I can't believe the two of us are going to take on the same mystery together once more...!" "Yeah. I'm looking forward to it...!"   
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Oct 27, 2017 13:27
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 BGM: Resurrected Replayer And so, here we are. You've been challenged by the Witch of Miracles to solve this game. Do you have what it takes? It's time to begin your reasoning. Some useful compilations of information are linked below. If you're stuck, you can check the hints, but surely you won't need to resort to that, right...? Rules:  Purple statements by character:                Extra Red Truth:      Hints (read in order as needed): Hint 1 Hint 2 Hint 3 Hint 4 Hint 5 Hint 6 Hint 7 Hint 8 Hint 9 Hint 10 Hint 11 Hint 12 Hint 13 Hint 14 Hint 15 Hint 16 Hint 17 Hint 18 Hint 19 Hint 20 Hint 21  Once you're sure of your theory, click the name of the culprit below. If you think there were multiple culprits working together, click the name that appears closest to the top of the list. Ushiromiya Battler Ushiromiya Eva Ushiromiya George Ushiromiya Hideyoshi Ushiromiya Jessica Ushiromiya Krauss Ushiromiya Kyrie Ushiromiya Maria Ushiromiya Natsuhi Ushiromiya Rosa Ushiromiya Rudolf Gohda Toshiro Kanon Kumasawa Chiyo Nanjo Terumasa Ronoue Genji Shannon Who dunnit? Quinn2win fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Nov 24, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 13:28
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Prof: Can you confirm for us that the "culprit select" prompt will only accept a single selection prior to hitting "confirm", not multiple? This would be the first thing I would try if I were playing the game for myself at this point.
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Oct 27, 2017 14:28
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Kytrarewn posted:Prof: Can you confirm for us that the "culprit select" prompt will only accept a single selection prior to hitting "confirm", not multiple? This would be the first thing I would try if I were playing the game for myself at this point. You can select multiple people before clicking to accuse.
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Oct 27, 2017 14:28
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 Even figuring out the last twilight first is making my head spin a little!It would have been easier if the culprits always lied. As it is, I'm evaluating each statement one at a time... So, two things here: "a culprit must not die"! If we accept that at face value, it means that the totality of culprits are among those alive at the end (Battler, George, Maria) or that someone's death has been misidentified earlier. The wording of Nanjo's statement earlier that "No one will mistakenly confirm a death, even those other than myself", if true, leaves open the possibility that only the 'death' part of the statement is true, not that the identity is confirmed. If we're thinking that purple statement is a lie, then Nanjo must be a culprit - so either the person who identified him was mistaken, or is also a culprit. Let's follow that thought for a bit. The person who confirms Nanjo's death at the 7th twilight is Jessica. The wrinkle here is that she states this in purple ("H, he's dead… He's been killed!"). If she is not a culprit, she cannot lie - I'm assuming this refers to absolute truth - so then, if Nanjo still lives, Jessica is also a culprit, right? Which implies that she survives the 8th twilight, about which George states in purple "She probably died instantly", and Maria says "There's no way she could live through this". So if Jessica is a culprit, then the only person who doesn't say something objectively untrue at the final twilight is Battler, who states "George-aniki, Maria and I couldn't have killed Jessica", which is true, because she's a culprit and thus still lives. I'm sure I've tricked myself somewhere here. Red truth says 6 of the 17 really did die at the first twilight, but for there to be four culprits at least seems a little off... Getting into small bombs territory here, I think. E: One more thought about the 8th twilight... If everything George, Maria and Battler say is true, that means someone else is alive, so Nanjo is almost definitely one of the culprits! Right? free Trapt CD fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Oct 27, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 15:06
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Hmm. I don't know how much time I'll have to write, so I'm just going to throw stuff out there until I run out and then hit post. Well, just off the bat, we know we don't have to trust Natsuhi's statements. A culprit is "one who murders", and unlike the other suspects, she is known to have committed murder before the mystery started. She only said one thing of significance, though, which is that Genji's key was destroyed. So his key could still be in play. A culprit must not die, though, so if she's in on it that would require Nanjo to also be a culprit so that his statement about her being dead can be a lie. Putting a pin in that, may come back to it. The culprit of the first twilight killed six people, but that's worthless information, since tons of people were killed during this over the course of the story. Bern didn't say they killed six people right in the first twilight in that room. Note that she says it after the second twilight, meaning that even in the most strict interpretation (six people were killed before she made that statement), two people from the first twilight can still be alive since two were killed in the second. Everyone confirmed their own parents' deaths, which means that the culprits must include, at minimum, one parent and one child so that the child can lie about confirming the death. (Since deaths cannot be mistakenly confirmed, the only possibility for a fake death is an out-and-out lie by one of the survivors.) That kills the closed room of the first twilight; the culprit or culprits killed everyone else, then locked the door from the inside, covered themselves in blood, and waited for their child to confirm their death. Once we've got someone outside the group of survivors, all future information about who has an alibi becomes irrelevant, just like in the previous episodes (particularly the first, which this scenario reminds me of a bit.) The second twilight has a locked room... but it also doesn't have any of the servants confirming that they didn't lock the door. That doesn't make them culprits, since culprits have to kill and they all stayed together and will alibi each other, but they could have locked the room after the killer left it without contradicting any of the red or purple statements. The killer left the mansion at this point, either before the murders were discovered or while they were being investigated, and so were not sealed inside the mansion. That culprit can then proceed on to murder Sayo with no particular difficulties and then enter the guesthouse. There's no closed room involved and the alibis are meaningless. They then kill Gohda and Kumasawa. The locks aren't meaningful there because nobody came from outside after it was sealed, they were already in there (presumably being sheltered by whatever culprit remains). That's it for my time; I think I've got some bits of it, but passing the baton to someone else. Things to consider: I think one of the people alive at the end has to be involved, along with at least one parent, since culprits can't die and I think there are too many occasions where later deaths are confirmed to make it work out. Maria can't kill anyone unless we want to have a super-wide conspiracy of the people left alive at the end. So it's either George, Eva, and Hideyoshi or Battler, Kyrie, and Rudolf.
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Oct 27, 2017 15:20
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free Trapt CD posted:
Ok a lot still to think over but one mistake you made here, which idonotlikepeas noticed, is that the word 'mistakenly' implies lack of intent. If a culprit confirms the death of someone who is alive, it isn't a mistake, it is a deliberate lie.
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Oct 27, 2017 16:04
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I'm curious about that red rule: The servants keep the master keys on their person at all times, so it is impossible for them to be stolen, handed over, or used by any human other than themselves. Does this apply to them even when they are dead? I'm going to work on the assumption that it is true. To begin with, let's assume the theory that one of the previous 'confirmed dead' person is still alive and going around killing everyone. First twilight: 6 dead. Eva/Hideyoshi is backed by George, Rosa by Maria, Rudolf/Kyrie by Battler, and Genji by Nanjo/Shannon(Kanon). This is further backed by Shakanon, Nanjo, and Maria. How many people would have to lie if one of them is alive? The most important person here is Maria. If she isn't a culprit, all of them died instantly, so there is no chance any of them are alive. According to Bern, the culprit of the first twilight really did kill 6 people. Note however, that she said it after the second twilight, which meant that it's possible the culprit killed 4 in the first twilight, and 2 in the second. If we're following this line of thought, one of the culprits have to be Maria, and since she lied, there is a high chance Rosa is alive too. Because Rosa is alive, but there are at least 4 people dead in the first twilight, George/Battler are not lying, otherwise it would make it 3 people alive in the first twilight. Therefore, the only people left who must be culprits are Shakanon & Nanjo. This also means that Genji and Rosa are alive. That's all I can think of for the moment regarding the first twilight. I've got a feeling I assumed something wrong though, which would put this theory to smoke. Edit: Wait, hold on, what is the definition of a victim? Does it refer to all 6 in the first twilight, or could it only refer to the people who really died? If Maria is not a culprit, does she mean that all 6 died instantly, or just that the people who died, died instantly? Eeepies fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Oct 27, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 16:08
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Eeepies posted:The most important person here is Maria. If she isn't a culprit, all of them died instantly, so there is no chance any of them are alive. Maria says all the victims died instantly. If someone is a culprit, they aren't a victim, so they didn't die. e:f,b by your own edit
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Oct 27, 2017 16:14
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One thing I did notice was that the narration specifically says that Nanjo is dead, and it is not spoken by any of the characters. Normally, this would prove nothing, but in this particular game... From this, we can deduce that Nanjo truly dies on the seventh twilight. If we interpret "the culprit must not die" as "the culprit must not die at any point in the story," then we can conclude that Nanjo is not the culprit and that all of his claims can be treated as red truths. The thing that is tripping me up is "the culprit must not die." I'm not sure whether that means "the culprit must not truly die at any point in the story," or "the culprit must not die in the course of committing their crime." If it is the second, then Nanjo is only exonerated from having committed Jessica's murder. In the second interpretation, one culprit is allowed to kill another culprit, so Nanjo can still tell lies in the purple and commit any of the murders before his death on the seventh twilight. If it is the first (which I suspect is the intended interpretation), then things get interesting. Besides Nanjo's statements becoming equivalent to the red truth, it also becomes possible to group together possible culprits by when their purple truths agree. If two purple truths state the same fact, then both of their speakers are either innocent or culprits. Otherwise, someone who was not the culprit would be lying with the purple, which would contradict the rule that only the culprit may lie with the purple. I'm somewhat reluctant to deduce any further without clarification on what "the culprit must not die" means, even though I suspect my first interpretation was correct.
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Oct 27, 2017 16:19
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... Hm. I'm not really in a place where I can sit down and do my usual circuitous chewing (stupid work), and will have to wait until evening... but I think the guys who are saying things like "the culprit didn't really die, because they aren't victims" are on the right track.
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Oct 27, 2017 16:27
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Well, well. That's interesting. I like this game. I think the crux at some point is where you have to dodge the rules. So. Let's break it down. A culprit must commit murder. If they do not, they are not considered a culprit, and can not cooperate with one. A culprit is considered a culprit for the entirety of the story, and all their statements are no longer considered truth. A culprit cannot die. So we can't have a case of multiple culprits where they murder each other. Let's look at where people can benefit by having their statements be lies: Krauss: No real benefit here. Natsuhi: Can get the inclusion of a master key back in, essential to creating closed rooms later. Jessica: Confirms Nanjo, Gohda, Kumasawa's deaths. Seals second twilight room. Confirms alibi of George in death of Shannon (4th). Confirms alibi of Maria, Battler, George in the death of Nanjo (7th). Nanjo: Deaths of Natsuhi, Krauss, Shannon, Gohda, Kumasawa. George: Death of Shannon, questionably also Nanjo and Jessica. Confirms alibi of Maria. Battler: Confirms George's alibi in fourth, everyone's alibi in eighth, existence of only two master keys in fifth/sixth. Maria: Confirms Jessica's death. Seals second twilight room, confirms first twilight. Confirms sealed room of seventh twilight. Confirms everyone's alibi at 8th. Shannon: Questionably allows a servant to slip away, but then she also has to not be dead. Kanon: Confirms servant alibis in second twilight, confirms Genji. Gohda: Confirms sealed room of first/second twilight, confirms destruction of Shannon's master key. Kumasawa: No real benefit. Ways to sneak out of red: Culprit of the first twilight can also be the culprit of the second, letting two live from the first. Questionable due to "no narrative tricks" in red. If there were no seals on Natsuhi's room, the dining hall, or the mansion, then they can't be broken. Kanon dies at the fourth twilight, and his key is destroyed. There is no way around this. I'm going to work from Kanon, since he cannot lie due to being dead. After that, I guess we'll see.
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Oct 27, 2017 16:28
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"The culprit must not die" means exactly what it says. No culprit can die at any point during the tale.
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Oct 27, 2017 16:28
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So one clarification about the rules I don't expect to get, but I'll throw the question out there anyway. For a person to be able to lie, they must kill at least one other person. If Shannon kills someone, does that mean Kanon is also a culprit, or do they need at least two bodies between them for both their statements to be lies? I ask mostly because the only person asserting that all the servants have alibis for the 2nd twilight is Shannon/Kanon.
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Oct 27, 2017 16:30
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Hilariously, if Nanjo is not a culprit, by extension Genji, Shakanon, Krauss, Natsushi, Gohda and Kumasawa all must be dead, since he's the one who confirms the death of them all. Since his death was in narration, and the red says that narration does not lie, are none of these people culprits?
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Oct 27, 2017 16:32
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ZiegeDame posted:If Shannon kills someone, does that mean Kanon is also a culprit, or do they need at least two bodies between them for both their statements to be lies? Feel free to interpret this however you want.
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Oct 27, 2017 16:41
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ZiegeDame posted:So one clarification about the rules I don't expect to get, but I'll throw the question out there anyway. For a person to be able to lie, they must kill at least one other person. If Shannon kills someone, does that mean Kanon is also a culprit, or do they need at least two bodies between them for both their statements to be lies? I'd argue it doesn't matter, because Kanon is killed in red. Thus, he cannot be lying.
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Oct 27, 2017 16:44
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Thankfully this mystery is laid out in simple enough terms that even I, the puzzle hater, could follow it. Let's get cracking.  Narration can not lie. It was stated in Krauss' white text that they couldn't find Genji's master key. Immediately afterwards, Natsuhi in purple says that they destroyed it. That seems suspicious. 
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Oct 27, 2017 16:49
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Eeepies posted:Hilariously, if Nanjo is not a culprit, by extension Genji, Shakanon, Krauss, Natsushi, Gohda and Kumasawa all must be dead, since he's the one who confirms the death of them all. Since his death was in narration, and the red says that narration does not lie, are none of these people culprits? I also just looked back through the update and noticed that Jessica's death was in narration as well. ProfessorProf posted:Then, outside the building, they found Jessica lying on the ground. It was, as anyone could tell by looking, a gruesome corpse... And given that the culprit may not die at any point, she can not be the culprit as well, so all of her statements can be taken as the red truth as well. However, I need another clarification. quote:A culprit must carry out all murders directly, by their own hands. Specifically, what happens if there are multiple culprits? Must all of them directly commit all of the murders? Or does only one of them have to carry out the murder? If it is the first, then George can not be a culprit, because Jessica, who we have confirmed can not be the culprit, says that George could not have murdered Shannon. ProfessorProf posted:
If it is the second, then George could still be a culprit, because another culprit could have murdered Shannon instead without his involvement and have the purple remain valid.
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Oct 27, 2017 17:03
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MayOrMayNotBeACat posted:Specifically, what happens if there are multiple culprits? Must all of them directly commit all of the murders? Or does only one of them have to carry out the murder? Every murder must be committed directly by a culprit. They don't need to team up for every one.
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Oct 27, 2017 17:26
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ZiegeDame posted:Ok a lot still to think over but one mistake you made here, which idonotlikepeas noticed, is that the word 'mistakenly' implies lack of intent. If a culprit confirms the death of someone who is alive, it isn't a mistake, it is a deliberate lie. Thank you ZD, that's true, and I think it's pretty key. I'm also glad MoMNBaC picked up on Nanjo's fate being spelled out, because that makes things much more clear. Everyone is doing some good posting here. So, a hypothesis for the second twilight! The following purple text is from characters who are established as truly dead, given what Nanjo has said and the consequences of that: Gohda: "Madam's room was locked" Shannon: "I unlocked the door…" Kanon: "Krauss-sama and Natsuhi-sama lay sprawled on the floor inside the room" Nanjo: "I confirmed both of their deaths. There can be no doubt that they died instantly" Shannon: "All of us servants were together the whole time" Kanon: "All of us servants can prove an alibi for all of the other servants" (ie not Genji, who is dead as confirmed by Nanjo and Kanon) Nanjo: "We also sealed the mansion itself, and all of us took refuge in the guesthouse" So: they died instantly, meaning they could not have locked the door from the inside. Yet the red truth tells us after the group leaves, no culprit 'joined the group', and that the seals on the room will remain unbroken. However, nobody searches the room. Beatrice is closer than she thinks with her guess. The culprit did lock the door from the inside, and then hid; the only thing she gets wrong is that the culprit simply doesn't escape. They stay there. And the only way for this person's absence to go unnoticed is for it to be someone who is already 'dead' - one of the culprits of the first twilight! So, they really DID kill six people, but two of them were Krauss and Natsuhi, and the other four were in the dining hall. This also implies that another of the 'victims' of the first twilight is alive and well, although since the person who committed the first twilight killed six people, the second person that is playing dead MUST murder someone later on to fit with our rules (if they're playing dead along with a culprit, I think that counts as cooperating). And, because the children check their parents' bodies in the first twilight, two of them being alive would necessitate that among our final trio of George, Maria and Battler, either one or two people lie about their parents' death - meaning that, because they have lied, they are also a culprit, and have committed another murder. So, just an example scenario: Hideyoshi murders Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa and Genji in the dining hall, and he and Eva lock the door from the inside, douse themselves in blood and play dead. Upon inspection, George checks their bodies and lies about their condition. Note that the dining hall is not stated to be sealed or locked until the time that the rest of the mansion is, much later. Shortly afterwards, Hideyoshi ambushes Krauss and Natsuhi in their room, murdering them and again locking the door from the inside before somehow fitting himself under the bed. However, because he is fat, he gets stuck, and cannot extricate himself, even after the investigation group seals the whole place down. In the meantime, Eva has left the mansion, preparing for the murder she will necessarily commit later. The whole thing is predicated on Nanjo being alive, and thus truthful, and the people whose deaths he reports also being truthful as a consequence. I hope somebody can find something wrong with this. The whole game as presented already felt so quick as to feel ruthless and mercenary...
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Oct 27, 2017 17:54
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OK, lunchtime, so let's get back on the Mystery Train.Eeepies posted:Hilariously, if Nanjo is not a culprit, by extension Genji, Shakanon, Krauss, Natsushi, Gohda and Kumasawa all must be dead, since he's the one who confirms the death of them all. Since his death was in narration, and the red says that narration does not lie, are none of these people culprits? I believe all of that to be correct. So all statements by any of those people must be considered accurate, which is sad since I was feeling very clever about remembering Natsuhi was already a murderer. MayOrMayNotBeACat posted:I also just looked back through the update and noticed that Jessica's death was in narration as well. It said she was a gruesome corpse, which is a bit debatable, but let's go with that provisionally. Especially since having her be the culprit would kill my theory of the first twilight, since her parents are found dead later and couldn't be outside of the Alibi Zone like people killed in the first set can be. (Plus, we then have a re-locked room to contend with.) And if that's the case, then we are absolutely required to have at least one fake death, because Jessica claims that none of the apparent survivors could have killed Gohda or Kumasawa. So at least one murder was carried out by a person thought to be dead at that point. MayOrMayNotBeACat posted:Specifically, what happens if there are multiple culprits? Must all of them directly commit all of the murders? Or does only one of them have to carry out the murder? I believe it means that the culprit can't set traps or use tricky means like poison to kill people. All murders that that culprit commits must be done personally. That's another reason Maria is probably not a culprit; it's not totally impossible for her to, say, shoot someone, but imagining her getting away with a string of murders is a bit too much. That means that it's possible for George to be a culprit if, say, Eva killed Shannon. I also missed the rule earlier about no non-culprits ever being able to assist a culprit, and we know that no servants are culprits, so it's impossible for a servant to relock Natsuhi's room after they find it even if they aren't a culprit. That said, we still have an option there: if we have more than one culprit that's free (and we have two slots that can be filled with culprits), one of them can hide in the room and just stay in there. The other one can then proceed to commit the other murders. If we're doing it this way, it requires that two people get out of the first twilight, since Gohda and Kumasawa have to be killed by an un-alibied person. And that also definitively eliminates Maria, even if she were still under consideration, since she has only one parent in there to lie about. The question I'm considering is whether there is trustworthy evidence that eliminates one of the two groups I believe is most likely to be responsible. I still think it has to be one of those three-person groups; either George's family or Battler's.
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Oct 27, 2017 18:04
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free Trapt CD posted:And, because the children check their parents' bodies in the first twilight, two of them being alive would necessitate that among our final trio of George, Maria and Battler, either one or two people lie about their parents' death - meaning that, because they have lied, they are also a culprit, and have committed another murder. Oho! That's the key I needed. The murders can't all be committed by an offscreen person. In order to be a culprit, one of the survivors must also kill someone personally. The only murder that fits the bill is Shannon's; the others all have to be done by outside forces to bust the closed rooms and alibis. And Jessica said George didn't kill Shannon, which means that that murder would have to have been committed by Battler. idonotlikepeas fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Oct 27, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 18:07
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idonotlikepeas posted:Oho! That's the key I needed. The murders can't all be committed by an offscreen person. In order to be a culprit, one of the survivors must also kill someone personally. The only murder that fits the bill is Shannon's; the others all have to be done by outside forces to bust the closed rooms and alibis. And Jessica said George didn't kill Shannon, which means that that murder would have to have been committed by Battler. This is exactly where I've ended up, and why I really hope there's a flaw in the logic somewhere. It would be heartbreaking if that's actually what happened. Can't we just blame it all on Nanjo and call it a day?
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Oct 27, 2017 18:21
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 15:41 |
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Honestly my first instinct would be to select everyone and mash confirm. It seems like the kind of story Bern would create and have Ange be watching in the background so she could let them "win" but still have her vengeance by crushing Ange's innocent image of Battler.
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Oct 27, 2017 18:29
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