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Steve2911 posted:Finn isn't Superman. He's just a guy. Finn had the power to save millions of people. This does a lot to support the interpretation that the film is about finding a daddy who will take over, and free you from responsibility. greatn posted:Tell me what bit of tactical realism Finn could have employed to have any effect whatsoever in saving lives in the Hosnian system from the Starkiller. Maz has a direct radio connection to the Resistance. There could be evacuations, at least. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Jan 4, 2016 |
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Jan 4, 2016 00:31
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Finn had the power to save millions of people. Source or explain your bullshit claims or be silent boy
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Jan 4, 2016 00:35
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Finn had the power to save millions of people. How exactly?
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Jan 4, 2016 00:36
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greatn posted:How exactly? By warning Poe, Han or whoever else is in earshot.
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Jan 4, 2016 00:39
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greatn posted:How exactly? By telling everyone on the junkyard planet he crashed on about it, obviously.
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Jan 4, 2016 00:40
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Finn had the power to save millions of people. One of the more bizarre things about Finn's characterization is that, despite his supposed background as a brainwashed-from-childhood nameless soldier, he emerges from the First Order as a fairly well-adjusted, self-aware, quip-spouting adult who likes to say "woo" while shooting TIE fighters and have a good time. Sure, he struggles a bit with being courageous, but there is never any question as to his ability to tell right from wrong. His past is never engaged with other than him being a source of plot-convenient intelligence and when he gets his schoolyard revenge on Phasma for being a big mean bully.
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Jan 4, 2016 00:46
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Mechafunkzilla posted:One of the more bizarre things about Finn's characterization is that, despite his supposed background as a brainwashed-from-childhood nameless soldier, he emerges from the First Order as a fairly well-adjusted, self-aware, quip-spouting adult who likes to say "woo" while shooting TIE fighters and have a good time. The film is extremely explicit about the fact that the new-generation Stormtroopers are not their old ones. Ren even comments about how they should have used a clone army and we see multiple cases of Stormtroopers demonstrating actual personality. (Daniel Cragtrooper making a snarky comment at Rey, the Traitor trooper betraying obvious anger, the two who just turn around and walk away when Ren is attacking.) It is not bizarre because it is supposed to be intentional that these stormtroopers are not the flawless obedient soldiers that the First Order ones despite Hux's protests. Finn is just part of that. Phasma and Hux think they are perfectly obedient soldiers or should be. Phasma and Hux are explicitly wrong. Like Ren is trying to imitate Darth Vader and failing, the First Order is attempting to be the Empire but are not as capable.
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Jan 4, 2016 00:49
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ImpAtom posted:The film is extremely explicit about the fact that the new-generation Stormtroopers are not their old ones. Ren even comments about how they should have used a clone army and we see multiple cases of Stormtroopers demonstrating actual personality. (Daniel Cragtrooper making a snarky comment at Rey, the Traitor trooper betraying obvious anger, the two who just turn around and walk away when Ren is attacking.) I'm not talking about finding it strange that he's not an obedient soldier, what's weird is that someone with his background would take off his helmet and immediately become Nice Guy Finn who provides comic relief and loves his friends, rather than seeming at all like someone who was taken from his family and raised as a child soldier by crazy fascists. The ridiculously traumatic backstory is just never addressed. He's out, so he's fine/Finn! Mechafunkzilla fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Jan 4, 2016 |
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Jan 4, 2016 00:53
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Galaga Galaxian posted:He was a grown adult during the clone wars. So he's at least 60 years old. He was at least 100 during A New Hope. Wookiees live a very long time.
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Jan 4, 2016 00:53
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I'm not talking about finding it strange that he's not an obedient soldier, what's weird is that someone with his background would take off his helmet and immediately become Nice Guy Finn who provides comic relief and loves his friends, rather than seeming at all like someone who was taken from his family and raised as a child soldier by crazy fascists. The ridiculously traumatic backstory is just never addressed. He's out, so he's fine/Finn! Why do you assume that other Stormtroopers aren't like that? I mean at bare minimum we can say that there are Stormtroopers who consider his betrayal to be a real personal offensive thing and not just a minor thing. Riot Trooper Dude wasn't just going after the traitor he wanted to beat the poo poo out of him with his stun baton. It is absolutely clear that Finn has a sense of empathy that his fellow soldiers don't but that doesn't mean they don't joke around or laugh or things like that. We're shown that they are loyal to the First Order but that doesn't mean they're humorless drones.
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Jan 4, 2016 01:01
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ImpAtom posted:(Daniel Cragtrooper making a snarky comment at Rey, the Traitor trooper betraying obvious anger, the two who just turn around and walk away when Ren is attacking.)
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Jan 4, 2016 01:02
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Finn is affable and well-adjusted because this is Star Wars, not Beasts of No Nation.
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Jan 4, 2016 01:06
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BrianWilly posted:These displays of personality are in-line with First Order dogma and indoctrination, though. Of course the First Order would teach their subordinates to hate any traitors of their glorious cause and to be contemptuous of "uncivilized" proletariats, particularly if they're prisoners of war. Finn doesn't do anything like that. Finn has an empathy they don't and chooses to reject his education. You can argue that it needs to be justified (and maybe it will) but people who reject brainwashing from childhood actually do exist even in the real world. The argument that he is brainwashed doesn't work because we're already shown that the First Order brainwashing is, at minimum, flawed and imperfect. The mere fact they have regular reeducation implies that Finn isn't the first. He's just the only one who pulled off an escape. (That we know of at least.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Jan 4, 2016 |
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Jan 4, 2016 01:06
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I'm not talking about finding it strange that he's not an obedient soldier, what's weird is that someone with his background would take off his helmet and immediately become Nice Guy Finn who provides comic relief and loves his friends, rather than seeming at all like someone who was taken from his family and raised as a child soldier by crazy fascists. The ridiculously traumatic backstory is just never addressed. He's out, so he's fine/Finn! It's one of those things that can be really tricky to balance without being too melodramatic, especially in a modern fast-moving film like TFA. He does exhibit some traits (imperial bigotry and awareness of his own mortality), and it's important to note that the opening scene was literally his first real combat engagement. What also helps is that he's playing escapism for a large part of the film; he's not FN, hosed up stormtrooper, he's Finn, aloof rebel gunner! I imagine it will be addressed in the next film, now that the "big bang" of establishing the modern SW film style has finished, and they can start digging into more development.
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Jan 4, 2016 01:11
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Its more like an intergalactic roadside truck stop diner to me. All that was missing was a big electric sign showing space-diesel prices. Yeah, considering Han was fine with sending off friends to weird aliens for work, it seems obviously less seedy than other Cantinas; just pilots gon' be greasy and weird in a tiny bar on an undeveloped planet.
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Jan 4, 2016 01:14
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I think Finn being raised as a stormtrooper is what contributes to his comic relief, a lot of which is not understanding social cues. Things like grabbing Rey's hand, blatantly asking if she has a boyfriend, using her face to climb on, "I'm a big deal in the Resistance," that thing with Han Solo shaking his chin at something behind him.
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Jan 4, 2016 01:16
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:By warning Poe, Han or whoever else is in earshot. Poe: With him for five minutes while they are being chased by Tie fighters and shot down. Han: Certainly could have told him about it, but how would this have saved anyone's life? Starkiller base fired a couple hours later. Assuming Han Solo could contact the Hosnian system, that they would even believe anything he said, or believe the First Order has such a weapon is one thing, I wonder how the hell they would do any semblance of an evacuation in such a short period. All that's assuming the Falcon has decent long range communications in the first place. Of course all of that is also assuming he even knew they planned to blow up the Hosnian system in the first place, which there's no reason he would. He knew they had this terrifying weapon which is why he wanted to run, he may have had no idea what they were going to do with it. "Solo, they've got a weapon that can destroy whole systems, we've got to evacuate everywhere!" "What do you mean everywhere?" "EVVVVERRRYYYYWHEEEEEEERRRRRRE!"
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Jan 4, 2016 01:17
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Soggy Cereal posted:I think Finn being raised as a stormtrooper is what contributes to his comic relief, a lot of which is not understanding social cues. Things like grabbing Rey's hand, blatantly asking if she has a boyfriend, using her face to climb on, "I'm a big deal in the Resistance," that thing with Han Solo shaking his chin at something behind him. I took his holding her hand as him outwardly projecting his desperate need to protect someone after he had just been part of a massacre even if he didn't shoot. The same as him immediately running to rescue her even though she didn't need it.
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Jan 4, 2016 01:22
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Honestly Finn's awakening didn't feel like it was due to morality or anything like that, it felt like almost everything occurring to him at once either due to his friend's death or due the force basically awakening him. (There is a sound effect that sounds a lot like the one when Rey starts full on Forcing when he takes off his helmet.)
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Jan 4, 2016 01:24
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I saw Finn wanting to hold Rey's hand as him needing comfort, a subversion of gender roles.
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Jan 4, 2016 01:24
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I thought that was way more about Rey.
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Jan 4, 2016 01:24
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greatn posted:"Solo, they've got a weapon that can destroy whole systems, we've got to evacuate everywhere!" Alternately: "Wait... you guys didn't know about the superweapon? How the hell do you not know about the superweapon! It's all anyone ever talks about! Do you also expect me to tell you that cats exist? ...Please tell me you know about cats."
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Jan 4, 2016 01:27
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euphronius posted:I thought that was way more about Rey. It's both. Finn at first projects masculinity by instinctively wanting to protect Rey when he sees her under attack. This is immediately subverted when Rey demonstrates that she's well capable of taking care of herself. The dynamic shifts to Finn wanting comfort and protection from Rey, and her being initially unwilling to give it because she's the rugged, self-sufficient masculine figure in their relationship. Also, it's cute and funny.
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Jan 4, 2016 01:30
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I'm pretty sure the Resistance knew that the Starkiller existed already, anyway.
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Jan 4, 2016 01:33
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BrianWilly posted:I'm pretty sure the Resistance knew that the Starkiller existed already, anyway. I mean who could forget that The Starkiller Kid that helped Han, Chewie, and the cast of Bucky O'Hare reenact Seven Samurai+1? http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jimm_Doshun  http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jimm_Doshun
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Jan 4, 2016 01:42
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Cnut the Great posted:Thank God we have Maz Kanata here to save us, meticulously designed and committee-approved to be so bland, anodyne, and completely lacking in any sort of unique cultural signifiers that no one could possibly mistake her for a caricature of anyone or anything. I love this. Maz doesn't offend anyone with outdated racial stereotypes (ala Jar Jar) so shes a lame and uninspired. You're white aren't you? porfiria posted:She's Chinese. Is that what "the internet landed on"? Someone will be pleased. Yaws fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Jan 4, 2016 |
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Jan 4, 2016 01:45
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Yaws posted:I love this. Maz doesn't offend anyone with outdated racial stereotypes (ala Jar Jar) so shes a lame and uninspired. She's Chinese.
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Jan 4, 2016 01:47
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Just like Donna Chang.
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Jan 4, 2016 01:49
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Yaws posted:I love this. Maz doesn't offend anyone with outdated racial stereotypes (ala Jar Jar) so shes a lame and uninspired. What you need to understand is that George Lucas, by including egregious racial and cultural stereotypes in his films, is bravely tackling racism head on, while J. J. Abrams, by casting a woman and a black man as his leads but not having any of his aliens display offensive cultural signifiers, is the true racist.
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Jan 4, 2016 01:52
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Phylodox posted:What you need to understand is that George Lucas, by including egregious racial and cultural stereotypes in his films, is bravely tackling racism head on, while J. J. Abrams, by casting a woman and a black man as his leads but not having any of his aliens display offensive cultural signifiers, is the true racist. That's what big budget sci-fi movies need. A rich white guy clumsily addressing racism in the most inelegant way possible. It's like Lucas told the voice actors to be as racist as possible. Don't worry, we're being subversive!
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Jan 4, 2016 01:56
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Yaws posted:Is that what "the internet landed on"? Someone will be pleased. I'm having trouble following this.
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Jan 4, 2016 01:57
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Phylodox posted:What you need to understand is that George Lucas, by including egregious racial and cultural stereotypes in his films, is bravely tackling racism head on, while J. J. Abrams, by casting a woman and a black man as his leads but not having any of his aliens display offensive cultural signifiers, is the true racist. JJ Abrams may have cast a black and a woman, but Lucas MARRIED a black woman, beat that!
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Jan 4, 2016 02:04
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The Resistance took moral advice from Mitch McConnell. What does this say to you, SMG?
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Jan 4, 2016 02:13
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Phylodox posted:What you need to understand is that George Lucas, by including egregious racial and cultural stereotypes in his films, is bravely tackling racism head on, while J. J. Abrams, by casting a woman and a black man as his leads but not having any of his aliens display offensive cultural signifiers, is the true racist. I'm pretty sure "Magical
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Jan 4, 2016 02:18
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turtlecrunch posted:Han says she's been running the place for a thousand years or something. I had assumed he meant in space years.
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Jan 4, 2016 02:19
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computer parts posted:I'm pretty sure "Magical Oh, absolutely, I agree. But there aren't any of those in The Force Awakens.
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Jan 4, 2016 02:26
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Phylodox posted:Oh, absolutely, I agree. But there aren't any of those in The Force Awakens. An ancient wise woman who's familiar with the religion of the Space Buddhists and imparts wisdom onto the (white, for Rey) protagonist. Nope, nothing there.
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Jan 4, 2016 02:27
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computer parts posted:An ancient wise woman who's familiar with the religion of the Space Buddhists and imparts wisdom onto the (white, for Rey) protagonist. Nope, nothing there. A wizened old woman who teaches and inspires.  That's the real life Maz Kanata. Total racial stereotype.
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Jan 4, 2016 02:29
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Phylodox posted:A wizened old woman who teaches and inspires. She looks less orange than in the movie.
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Jan 4, 2016 02:30
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computer parts posted:She looks less orange than in the movie. She's currently weaning herself off the Minute Maid OJ. She had to drink several gallons before her scenes to get the skin tone just yellow enough, so people can brand her as a racist caricature. To avoid the crashing withdrawal symptoms of going cold turkey, she's working herself down to a juice box every couple of hours.
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