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Why is it that the whole Iraqi political system had to be destroyed? That seems like a pretty hosed up thing to do.
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Jul 28, 2014 04:34
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Miltank posted:Why is it that the whole Iraqi political system had to be destroyed? That seems like a pretty hosed up thing to do. Bremer wanted to treat the Iraqi system like the Nazis. De-Baathification meant dissolving the military and removing anyone who had ties to the Baath party from their jobs. There was a Frontline documentary on L. Paul Bremer that covered it, linked to earlier in this thread.
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Jul 28, 2014 04:38
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were the Baathists really as bad as the Nazis?
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Jul 28, 2014 04:41
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The real joke is that 'DeNazification' was 50% PR anyway, since you more or less had to join the Party to be a civil servant before the War.
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Jul 28, 2014 04:44
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100% of Iraqis in this picture loved intervention.
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Jul 28, 2014 04:59
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McDowell posted:The real joke is that 'DeNazification' was 50% PR anyway, since you more or less had to join the Party to be a civil servant before the War. The US sure looked the other way when a bunch of Nazis went to work for NASA.
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Jul 28, 2014 05:31
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Rand alPaul posted:The US sure looked the other way when a bunch of Nazis went to work for NASA. "Vhen ze rokkets are up who cares vhere zey come down? Zat's not my department," says Wernher von Braun.
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Jul 28, 2014 05:33
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CNN has live coverage of the UN's talks about Palestine right now; they just played a pretty brutal-for-CNN-at-least-in-my-mind photo montage of maimed Palestinian kids like I'd assume to see marked  here.
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Jul 28, 2014 07:15
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Cippalippus posted:why minorities weren't busy in the area's favorite hobbies (mass torture and murder) was the Syrian regime. Cool, I love the racism that Assad's defenders regularly resort to. Because really the only way to justify the abuses that the regime perpetuated before the civil war and which served to escalate the situation is to utterly dehumanise the opposition.
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Jul 28, 2014 07:39
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fez_machine posted:Cool, I love the racism that Assad's defenders regularly resort to. Yet somehow I think that of all the people posting in the thread I've been the only one to actually set foot in Syria, or have any knowledge of it that doesn't come from the latest months of CNN/FOX coverage. American ignorance and naivety is discouraging if not flat out scary, considering that the US wield a great military power but lack the moral fiber and authority to use it (yet consistently use it, to lose pretty much every single war). The only fact that you're talking about racism speaks volume of your knowledge of the matter. What has race got to do with anything here? It's just a word that the simple minded use when they don't know what to say.
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Jul 28, 2014 08:07
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Cippalippus posted:Yet somehow I think that of all the people posting in the thread I've been the only one to actually set foot in Syria, or have any knowledge of it that doesn't come from the latest months of CNN/FOX coverage. American ignorance and naivety is discouraging if not flat out scary, considering that the US wield a great military power but lack the moral fiber and authority to use it (yet consistently use it, to lose pretty much every single war). You're saying Syrian Sunni's were incapable of being better than Assad. I've spoken with plenty of Syrians who live there that would take offense at that. Nobody cares that you were there on vacation or whatever. It doesn't make your politics suck less.
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Jul 28, 2014 08:21
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Volkerball posted:You're saying Syrian Sunni's were incapable of being better than Assad. Don't use the past tense. They still are.
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Jul 28, 2014 08:29
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Wars are never fought to make the life of the normal people better. you gotta be brainwashed or never read about any war to believe that. The population always suffers most. Military intervention always makes the situation worse. GreenLight fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Jul 28, 2014 |
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Jul 28, 2014 09:06
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Cippalippus posted:Don't use the past tense. They still are. If they can't be better than Assad, but you're infinitely more of a piece of poo poo than any I've talked to, what's that make you?
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Jul 28, 2014 09:10
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GreenLight posted:The population always suffers most. Military intervention always makes the situation worse. In Libya, have there been reports of state goons muscling teenage girls off to rape dungeons after Gaddafi's fall and death? No? Okay, then military intervention doesn't always make the situation worse. It is literally that simple.
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Jul 28, 2014 09:32
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New Division posted:I'd say the West should get over the idea it can beneficially shape outcomes in the Middle East through military power and accept that whatever happens there from now on will probably be shaped by the people of the region for better or worse. The West needs to realize it has not done anything to "help" anyone, Americans, for example, think we spend 100x what we do on foreign aid or something over inflated like that, that's how big their ego is vs reality. The leaders of such people can't be competent. What I am saying is, knowledge of world geography should be a minimum requirement to any claim of help. It's incredibly cruel to piss on people and call it rain. Femur fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Jul 28, 2014 |
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Jul 28, 2014 09:35
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Gen. Ripper posted:In Libya, have there been reports of state goons muscling teenage girls off to rape dungeons after Gaddafi's fall and death? No? Okay, then military intervention doesn't always make the situation worse. It is literally that simple. Ummm yes? Gaddhafi's ouster was a pretty serious boon for Boko Haram, who were responsible for kidnapping those Nigerian schoolgirls? From whom no-one has heard for months, the Nigerian government certainly hasn't returned them. Flaky fucked around with this message at 10:03 on Jul 28, 2014 |
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Jul 28, 2014 09:58
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Cippalippus posted:Yet somehow I think that of all the people posting in the thread I've been the only one to actually set foot in Syria, or have any knowledge of it that doesn't come from the latest months of CNN/FOX coverage. American ignorance and naivety is discouraging if not flat out scary, considering that the US wield a great military power but lack the moral fiber and authority to use it (yet consistently use it, to lose pretty much every single war). Do you honestly believe people in this forum get their info from CNN/Fox? I don't think going to Syria makes you more of an expert on the civil war.
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Jul 28, 2014 10:43
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Cippalippus posted:Yet somehow I think that of all the people posting in the thread I've been the only one to actually set foot in Syria, or have any knowledge of it that doesn't come from the latest months of CNN/FOX coverage. American ignorance and naivety is discouraging if not flat out scary, considering that the US wield a great military power but lack the moral fiber and authority to use it (yet consistently use it, to lose pretty much every single war). And here I am calling you out and saying you have some of the most naive views on the conflict in this thread, and going to Syria a few times in the 90s does not make you an expert on the demographics and politics of the place that literally invented civilisation.
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Jul 28, 2014 12:22
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Flaky posted:Ummm yes? Gaddhafi's ouster was a pretty serious boon for Boko Haram, who were responsible for kidnapping those Nigerian schoolgirls? From whom no-one has heard for months, the Nigerian government certainly hasn't returned them. Last time I checked Nigeria isn't in Libya.
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Jul 28, 2014 12:41
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I think the main line of thinking goes that after Libya's arms depots were looted in 2011, the weapons went to Boko Haram and other militant groups, fanning the flames of all the regional crises.
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Jul 28, 2014 12:48
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Libya itself is embroiled in some sort of low intensity civil war with all these militias fighting over turf/ideology/vendetta, hardly a safer place for women. Not to mention, I don't think it has ever been verified, the claim that gaddafi's soldier were raping women en masse? It's often accompanied by the claim that gaddafi was issuing Viagra to his soldiers so that they can weaponize rape harder, but it just strike me as ridiculous propaganda with no supporting evidence.
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Jul 28, 2014 12:55
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Muffiner posted:And here I am calling you out and saying you have some of the most naive views on the conflict in this thread, and going to Syria a few times in the 90s does not make you an expert on the demographics and politics of the place that literally invented civilisation. You're thinking about Iraq, mate. You can grind your teeth as much as you want, but you will never convince anyone with a grain of salt that Assad isn't the best option available for Syria today. He's the only one that can guarantee the safety of the Christians in Syria, and that's all that really matters because every alternative implies a genocide that makes the current situation look good.
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Jul 28, 2014 12:56
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paragon1 posted:Last time I checked Nigeria isn't in Libya. May as well be for how representative the lines on the map are of the reality on the ground.
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Jul 28, 2014 13:08
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Flaky posted:May as well be for how representative the lines on the map are of the reality on the ground. Heh, someone should introduce him to the laughable concept of a nationstate that is Somalia. Western nations and the UN sure do love to draw borders that don't really mean anything in reality. 
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Jul 28, 2014 13:12
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Cippalippus posted:You're thinking about Iraq, mate. You can grind your teeth as much as you want, but you will never convince anyone with a grain of salt that Assad isn't the best option available for Syria today. He's the only one that can guarantee the safety of the Christians in Syria, and that's all that really matters because every alternative implies a genocide that makes the current situation look good. Tell us how you're not racist.
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Jul 28, 2014 13:24
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What the gently caress has racism got to do with anything at hand here?
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Jul 28, 2014 13:28
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Muffiner posted:Tell us how you're not racist. Well, racist might not be the correct term since the people involved are all of the same "race". He is a sectarian bigot though.
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Jul 28, 2014 13:33
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Munin posted:Well, racist might not be the correct term since the people involved are all of the same "race". He is a sectarian bigot though. I don't think it's controversial to predict that ISIS coming out on top of Assad in the conflict would result in genocide.
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Jul 28, 2014 13:46
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Xoidanor posted:I don't think it's controversial to predict that ISIS coming out on top of Assad in the conflict would result in genocide. That's not what he said though. quote:why minorities weren't busy in the area's favorite hobbies (mass torture and murder) was the Syrian regime. Apparently the only thing preventing Arabs from going ISIS on each other is a strongman to keep them in check.
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Jul 28, 2014 13:50
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Xoidanor posted:I don't think it's controversial to predict that ISIS coming out on top of Assad in the conflict would result in genocide. Yeah, but going sunnis in Syria all are or support ISIS is sectarian and bigoted. So is claiming that only a alawite strongman can keep those drat sunnis in order and prevent a genocide of Christians in Syria. Not to mention that ISIS is an import into the situation who exploited the situation when the existing belligerents in Syria fought themselves to a bloody standstill. They are not a domestic faction though their success has led to more Syrian (and international) recruits joining their banner.
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Jul 28, 2014 14:18
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Kurtofan posted:That's not what he said though. It's not "apparently" the only thing, it's in the loving facts you obtuse imbecile. Munin posted:Yeah, but going sunnis in Syria all are or support ISIS is sectarian and bigoted. So is claiming that only a alawite strongman can keep those drat sunnis in order and prevent a genocide of Christians in Syria. I never said that, for the record. I didn't even mention sunnis; I simply stated, and facts are by my side, that Assad was the only thing preventing sectarian violence. It's not like the other sects don't hate sunnis as well. Cippalippus fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Jul 28, 2014 |
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Jul 28, 2014 14:18
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Do tell me more about how them savage arabs must be kept on a tight leash by a Strong Leader to keep their innate murderous nature in check and also about how you're totally not racist.
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Jul 28, 2014 14:22
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I imagine it has more to do with the specific political conditions of Syria than the presence or absence of arabs.
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Jul 28, 2014 14:34
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Cerebral Bore posted:Do tell me more about how them savage arabs must be kept on a tight leash by a Strong Leader to keep their innate murderous nature in check and also about how you're totally not racist. I'll do that as soon as you remind me all the success stories of american intervention in the Middle East. The crazily stupid idea of Bush, "killing the bad guy=democracy for everyone" is apparently ingrained in the minds of people. Assad is the best at hand. I've yet to see a credible alternative in Syria, and at this point it only looks like the opposition will come to terms with him because there's something worse to fight. Do you hate how I word my posts and would like some more political correctness so that your sensibility isn't hurt by it? If it weren't ISIS, it would be something else, but sectarian violence was only kept in check by Assad and by his father Afez before him. Arabs or caucasian or whatever have no influence. It's not a race issue.
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Jul 28, 2014 14:38
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I must say I don't find someone using Sarin/Chlorine gas on his own people while running rape/torture factories and barrel bombing cities to be a "stable and not crazy-rear end motherfucker" but perhaps I am ignorant to the realpolitik of the situation. That, or maybe it just feels like western powers supporting horrific regimes for short-term financial/political gain is a large part of how the middle east got so hosed up in the first place.
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Jul 28, 2014 14:41
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DesperateDan posted:That, or maybe it just feels like western powers supporting horrific regimes for short-term financial/political gain is a large part of how the middle east got so hosed up in the first place.
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Jul 28, 2014 14:49
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You have to keep in mind, he's just engaging in his area's favorite hobbies (racism and smugness).
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Jul 28, 2014 14:54
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Cippalippus posted:I never said that, for the record. I didn't even mention sunnis; I simply stated, and facts are by my side, that Assad was the only thing preventing sectarian violence. It's not like the other sects don't hate sunnis as well. I was reacting to this post: Cippalippus posted:Don't use the past tense. They still are. Where you do explicitly respond to the Sunni question with an affirmative statement that you think "Sunnis" are incapable of running a country in which they are the majority better than Assad. With the Assad in question being someone that, when push came to shove, resorted to bloody crackdowns and massacres just like his father did rather than countenance dialogue and reform. His father managed to beat the unrest in his time back into submission but doing this did not resolve the underlying tensions and, as the current 3+ year civil war proves, you are playing with fire every time you do so and if the initial suppression fails you're left with a wildfire and a lot of wreckage. The Assad family's repeated crackdowns on Sunni dissent *is* sectarian violence btw. Also, for all your ranting about the US currently the biggest stirrers of the pot at the moment are the various gulf states. Turkey is also, understandably since they are direct neighbours, keeping a close eye on things. The US in general has done remarkably little to intervene in Syria and since there were few existing ties they did not even have the leverage of withholding their financial and political support as they did in Egypt which did have an effect on that revolution.
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Jul 28, 2014 14:55
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How has Tunisia been doing post-revolution? I've heard nothing about them, which I can suppose may be a good thing if it means things calmed down.
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Jul 28, 2014 15:00
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