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The Russia thing would seem less disingenuous if the Democrats were concurrently doing some serious soulsearching about who they are and what they stand for. As it is, it's really obvious the Democrats want to focus on why Trump won instead of why they lost.
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Mar 26, 2017 01:18
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It's pretty obvious the Democrats want to focus on pushing Trump's poo poo in and that's a bad thing because
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Mar 26, 2017 01:21
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they're really inept at it. I love madlibs!!
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Mar 26, 2017 01:22
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JeffersonClay posted:It's pretty obvious the Democrats want to focus on pushing Trump's poo poo in and that's a bad thing because the status quo sucks for everyone outside of major cities just because trump and his admin are more than likely compromised doesn't mean democrats should think that they had a winning message last election
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Mar 26, 2017 01:25
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the trump tutelage posted:they're really inept at it. The Trump presidency is going great and he just keeps clowning those stupid dems! Gringostar posted:just because trump and his admin are more than likely compromised doesn't mean democrats should think that they had a winning message last election "Candidate Trump sucks" and "Incumbent Presdient Trump sucks" are not actually the same message and strategy. "Incumbent President _____ sucks" is historically a winner in midterms. They'll need a good candidate with good ideas to make a case for something in 2020, but not 2018.
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Mar 26, 2017 01:35
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JeffersonClay posted:"Candidate Trump sucks" and "Incumbent Presdient Trump sucks" are not actually the same message and strategy. "Incumbent President _____ sucks" is historically a winner in midterms. They'll need a good candidate with good ideas to make a case for something in 2020, but not 2018. first off retaking the house in 2018 is vitally important since not only will it manage to stop all the horrible poo poo republicans want to do but also actually allow investigations into trump and co. that will be done by people who aren't just as tainted secondly only having a message of "president bad" is a really loving dumb strategy that's obvious to anyone that paid attention to literally anything the last few days if dems want to actually keep control of the government away from republicans and not just get voted out again 2 years after they take everything, hopefully in 2020
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Mar 26, 2017 01:41
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JeffersonClay posted:The Trump presidency is going great and he just keeps clowning those stupid dems! unlimited shrimp has issued a correction as of 01:50 on Mar 26, 2017 |
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Mar 26, 2017 01:48
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Gringostar posted:first off retaking the house in 2018 is vitally important since not only will it manage to stop all the horrible poo poo republicans want to do but also actually allow investigations into trump and co. that will be done by people who aren't just as tainted Dems won handily in 2006 with Bush bad, and then Obama swept with a positive issue focused campaign in 2008. I'm suggesting the same strategy works in 2018 and 2020, respectively. Democrats can't promise to do anything other than investigate Trump, block everything he tries to do and impeach him if possible in 2018 anyway, even if they win the house and senate. the trump tutelage posted:Trump crashing and burning has nothing to do with the Dems, though. It's not like they're reining him in and holding his feet to the flames. At best, they're MST3K to the shitshow that is his presidency. So they're inept because Trump isn't somehow crashing and burning harder? They're obviously not loving up.
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Mar 26, 2017 02:44
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the trump tutelage posted:The Russia thing would seem less disingenuous if the Democrats were concurrently doing some serious soulsearching about who they are and what they stand for. As it is, it's really obvious the Democrats want to focus on why Trump won instead of why they lost. give 'em a couple more months theyre still working out the details in backroom meetings and stuff
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Mar 26, 2017 02:55
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Hey fyi Trump and everything that is not Trump is hosed beyond all recovery as far as science has determined, plz embrace this or go insane lol
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Mar 26, 2017 03:21
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If that was not fitting I am sorry as I have been drinking heavily
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Mar 26, 2017 03:22
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JeffersonClay posted:Dems won handily in 2006 with Bush bad, and then Obama swept with a positive issue focused campaign in 2008. I'm suggesting the same strategy works in 2018 and 2020, respectively. Democrats can't promise to do anything other than investigate Trump, block everything he tries to do and impeach him if possible in 2018 anyway, even if they win the house and senate. were you as brain dead in 2010 as you are now because dems lost by historic numbers that year after not doing a hell of a lot about income inequality, all the poo poo wall st got away with, and actual long term solutions to healthcare instead of the baindaid of obamacare.. you know the same things that they're still not talking about furthermore, yeah they can talk about that poo poo and I would say that loving need to talk about that poo poo after how tarnished their brand is regarding those things along with others since they're so tied to their immediate legislative past in case you forgot dems lost by only really talking about how republicans are bad instead of actually driving a message about what they would actually do republicans overall messaging wasn't just obama bad it was obama bad and we'll fix all the things he's hosed up, which is obviously lies but again there was just a loving election where people believe lies over truth when that truth is only incrementalism and status quo instead of actually working to fix poo poo poo poo like this is what dems should be doing http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Vermont-delegation-holds-joint-meeting-in-Hardwick-11027365.php push for investigations to move forward, don't cooperate with reps, celebrate victories to connect with voters, pushing for people to protest/attend town halls, actually submit bills for long term solutions and then actually enact them once they have the votes to do so Gringostar has issued a correction as of 04:02 on Mar 26, 2017 |
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Mar 26, 2017 03:41
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Dems lost massively running an election saying nothing but "Trump bad!!!" and not presenting an real, progressive and alternative policy, that's not a continuation of the objectively failing and corrupt status quo if they run on the same or equivalent message in 2020, then Trump is getting another term
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Mar 26, 2017 14:07
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It's embarrassing how stupid centrist dems are, because they keep thinking its the 90s, that people have somehow forgotten that wall street got bailed out, but homeowners didn't Or that they have forgotten that trade deals have raped the middle class Or that the US got itself into multiple pointless middle East wars with both democratic and republican leadership That their leaders lie to them daily, or treat them like cattle, That everyone have somehow forgotten any of that, and that the only thing you have to do, to restore things to the way they were, is defeat Trump I got bad news: Trump isn't an anomaly, he's an expression of frustration, a giant warning signal Kill him, and another demogage will take his place. And then another. And another. Until you get the message - that people are scared, desperate, and willing to give power to absolutely anyone, so long as said anyone promises to blow up the system that you, the elite, have made, the system they know they are trapped in, and heading for destruction.
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Mar 26, 2017 14:24
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I agree, the Democrats need a positive issue based campaign with an effective candidate to win in 2020. Without one they will not win, or will not win by enough of a margin to be able to pass an agenda that justifies them to voters. But that's not true in 2018. They can't run on opposing trump everywhere and also getting him to sign whatever bill you're envisioning them campaigning on. The frame for a midterm election when you're out of power is "president bad, president's policies bad". I'm not suggesting democrats shouldn't contrast Trump's policies with ones we'd prefer, but it would be pointless to run on a promise of Medicare for all in 2018 because that will absolutely not happen until after 2020 at earliest. You can see that distinction in Bernie's strategy over the past months. He was focused on opposing Trump and defending the ACA, not on calling the ACA a garbage bandaid that must be replaced with single payer. But he will start calling the ACA a garbage bandaid that needs to be replaced during the 2020 election. JeffersonClay has issued a correction as of 19:53 on Mar 26, 2017 |
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Mar 26, 2017 19:42
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This is the CIA hacking people thread
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Mar 26, 2017 19:44
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JeffersonClay posted:I agree, the Democrats need a positive issue based campaign with an effective candidate to win in 2020. Without one they will not win, or will not win by enough of a margin to be able to pass an agenda that justifies them to voters. stop being an idiot and only thinking about the presidency every candidate the dems put forward needs a positive issue based campaign for every level of government, and that poo poo needs to start happening shortly
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Mar 26, 2017 19:56
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I think it would be a bad idea for house candidates to promise they'll be able to pass legislation that they absolutely will not be able to pass in 2018. That strategy would make it more difficult to credibly make the same promise in 2020, when they might actually be able to pass legislation. Don't confuse that with suggesting they shouldn't talk about policy or ideas other than Trump bad. But Trump bad is going to be the focus in 2018 and it should be.
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Mar 26, 2017 21:00
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lmao
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Mar 26, 2017 21:29
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please stop talking about the primaries in this thread ffs
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Mar 26, 2017 21:31
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let's offer no vision, no platform, and no message. this worked absolutely wonderfully for the democrats in the 2016 elections, so let's repeat this strategy. russian hysteria and negative trump messaging will surely work this time
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Mar 26, 2017 22:50
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Let's offer a platform that we know we can't deliver, that worked so well for Dems in 2008. The only thing Dems can credibly promise in 2018 is to oppose trump and maybe impeach him. They can't promise they'll be able to pass any policies of their own. Midterm elections are different than general elections when you don't control the executive branch. There are structural factors that make midterms referrendums on the president's party. That hasn't changed. So there's no risk of focus on Russia making Dems ignore great leftist policy proposals in 2018 because they shouldn't be making those proposals until the 2020 election anyway. They can talk about them and build enthusiasm, sure, but they shouldn't make them the focus of their campaigns until they can plausibly promise to enact them.
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Mar 26, 2017 23:08
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I'm the idiot who thinks that the dems have the ability to "impeach" Trump, but couldn't possibly pass any progressive legislation.
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Mar 26, 2017 23:57
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voters will support you if you genuinely fight for something even if at that immediate moment in time you won't be able to get it into law there's a reason sanders is the most favorably viewed politician in the united states while corporate and centrist democrats' favorability is in the loving dumpster doubling down on a losing strategy when the party has been wiped out at all levels of government is just loving insane
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Mar 27, 2017 00:00
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comedyblissoption posted:let's offer no vision, no platform, and no message. this worked absolutely wonderfully for the democrats in the 2016 elections, so let's repeat this strategy. russian hysteria and negative trump messaging will surely work this time ???
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Mar 27, 2017 00:08
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:I'm the idiot who thinks that the dems have the ability to "impeach" Trump, but couldn't possibly pass any progressive legislation. like I hate to break it to you but the president has a veto that democrats would need a 2/3 majority in the house and senate to override, but to impeach they only need a majority in the house, and then 2/3 in the senate to convict. So it's obviously much more plausible for house candidates to promise they'll impeach trump than it is for them to promise they'll pass (amazing leftist agenda).
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Mar 27, 2017 00:37
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you make republicans and trump the obstacles to progressive change so that people throw them out and vote for you. forcing trump to veto progressive legislation would be a huge win. right now, the democrats are the obstacles to progressive change a huge amount of voters identify as independent instead of democrat since the 2008 elections because they are becoming disillusioned with the party
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Mar 27, 2017 00:48
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comedyblissoption posted:you make republicans and trump the obstacles to progressive change so that people throw them out and vote for you. forcing trump to veto progressive legislation would be a huge win. ???
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Mar 27, 2017 01:30
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dems need the cum vote more than anything, eat more pineapple maybe even go vegan
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Mar 27, 2017 01:34
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comedyblissoption posted:a huge amount of voters identify as independent instead of democrat since the 2008 elections because they are becoming disillusioned with the party Is that because Obama promised a bunch of poo poo he couldn't deliver? Because you're suggesting democrats try exactly the same thing in 2018.
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Mar 27, 2017 02:08
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it was because Obama promised a bunch of poo poo he and his party had no interest in delivering lol
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Mar 27, 2017 02:42
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JeffersonClay posted:Is that because Obama promised a bunch of poo poo he couldn't deliver? Because you're suggesting democrats try exactly the same thing in 2018. Please probate this dude lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 27, 2017 03:38
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Dems get House promising nothing in 2006 -> Obama campaigns on poo poo everyone wants in 2008 -> less gets done before 2010 than he promised and he gets blowback from pissed right wingers with no left wing to fight back Hmm JC, what possible lesson could we learn from this about not running on anything in 2018??
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Mar 27, 2017 17:19
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Fiction posted:Dems get House promising nothing in 2006 -> Obama campaigns on poo poo everyone wants in 2008 -> less gets done before 2010 than he promised and he gets blowback from pissed right wingers with no left wing to fight back make sure the rich and powerful never feel the effects of their actions beyond getting money
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Mar 27, 2017 17:28
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Gringostar posted:were you as brain dead in 2010 as you are now because dems lost by historic numbers that year after not doing a hell of a lot about income inequality, all the poo poo wall st got away with, and actual long term solutions to healthcare instead of the baindaid of obamacare.. you know the same things that they're still not talking about dems lost in 2010 because they did basically one thing in those entire two years (Obamacare) and then spent most of the election avoiding obama and obamacare for fear of the controversies obama didn't help much by insisting on negotiating austerity with the republicans instead of doing anything at all that might help Dems in the midterms, but congressional dems didn't even want to campaign on what little good obama actually managed to accomplish JeffersonClay posted:I think it would be a bad idea for house candidates to promise they'll be able to pass legislation that they absolutely will not be able to pass in 2018. That strategy would make it more difficult to credibly make the same promise in 2020, when they might actually be able to pass legislation. Don't confuse that with suggesting they shouldn't talk about policy or ideas other than Trump bad. But Trump bad is going to be the focus in 2018 and it should be. why? it worked for republicans. they've been promising obamacare repeal since 2010, even though they didn't have the numbers and the democratic president would definitely veto it people realize that dems aren't going to pass poo poo while they're the minority party with an opposing president. but being able to tell people "here's what we would do if we did have the majority" is really important
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Mar 27, 2017 17:53
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Fiction posted:Dems get House promising nothing in 2006 -> Obama campaigns on poo poo everyone wants in 2008 -> less gets done before 2010 than he promised and he gets blowback from pissed right wingers with no left wing to fight back It seems like the lesson we learn is that the electorate punishes you for promising things you can't deliver. Main Paineframe posted:why? it worked for republicans. they've been promising obamacare repeal since 2010, even though they didn't have the numbers and the democratic president would definitely veto it It makes perfect sense for Republicans to run against Obama and his policies when they don't control the executive branch. Their strategy has been to run against Obama and everything he did since he was elected the first time, and as you point out, it worked. the republican opposition to Obamacare should be a cautionary tale, as well. It was easy for them to vote for it as a signal to their base when they knew it would get vetoed. The details didn't matter. But once they could actually pass the repeal, those details started to matter a lot, so much so that internal disagreements hosed them over. I haven't actually looked at the Medicare for all bill, or the level of detail it provides, but it's not going to do us any favors to gloss over divisions in the party with feel good signaling to the base only to have no excuses as to why we can't agree once we're in power.
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Mar 27, 2017 19:27
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JeffersonClay posted:It makes perfect sense for Republicans to run against Obama and his policies when they don't control the executive branch. Their strategy has been to run against Obama and everything he did since he was elected the first time, and as you point out, it worked. The divisions in the Republican party were over "how many people should we gently caress over with this bill, and how badly should we screw them". that's not really a problem a properly written single-payer bill should have
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Mar 27, 2017 20:01
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JeffersonClay posted:It seems like the lesson we learn is that the electorate punishes you for promising things you can't deliver. It's an unending cycle with you. Elect people who don't have any convictions -> people get mad when their lack of conviction is exposed -> we can't deliver because we lack the conviction! Sad.
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Mar 27, 2017 20:26
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Main Paineframe posted:The divisions in the Republican party were over "how many people should we gently caress over with this bill, and how badly should we screw them". that's not really a problem a properly written single-payer bill should have As Bernie demonstrated last year, writing a proper single-payer bill that doesn't require raising taxes massively isn't a simple task. Fiction posted:It's an unending cycle with you. Elect people who don't have any convictions -> people get mad when their lack of conviction is exposed -> we can't deliver because we lack the conviction! Dems should argue a lot about who does and does not have real convictions in the primary. It's too late once they're in the general.
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Mar 27, 2017 20:40
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JeffersonClay posted:
hahaha
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Mar 27, 2017 20:45
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