Eve Online 2017: Currently offline until we re-deploy good posts

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iospace: Jan 19, 2038

ullerrm posted:

You may not want to. The Ninazu and Lif both have weird bonuses, and the Ninazu has a really awful slot layout.

Apostle/Minokawa:
* 5% bonus to RR amount
* 4% bonus to resists
* 5% bonus to capacitor size

Lif/Ninazu:
* 5% bonus to RR rate of fire
* 7.5% bonus to active tank amount
* 10% bonus to cap injector amount

So, when it comes to repping stuff in Triage, their niche is that they can cycle their reps fast enough to hopefully land between big packets of damage and prevent you from being alphaed. But in exchange, they use significantly more capacitor for their reps, so they can't keep it up for an entire Triage cycle.

Problem two: In order to make use of that injector bonus, you need to have an injector fitted -- otherwise, not only do you need more cap for your reps, but you have less cap to work with than the Apostle/Minokawa :\ That's not so bad for the armor-tanked Ninazu, but it's pretty bad for the Lif who wants to spend as many mids as possible on shield tank.

Problem three: You can generally get just as much active tank out of an Apostle as you can out of a Ninazu -- resists contribute just as much towards active tanking as an active-tank bonus does. In fact, for any given set of lows, the Apostle ends up being within 2-3k EHP/sec of a Ninazu -- and then does better, because the Apostle has an extra low-slot to work with.

From an FC perspective, given the choice between a Ninazu or Lif and no FAXes at all, I'll take what I can get... but I'd really rather see people in Apostles and Minokawas on average.

So what fit would you recommend for a Minokawa then?

# ? Jan 10, 2017 05:57

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 03:23

ullerrm: Dec 31, 2012; Oh, the network slogan is true -- "watch FOX and be damned for all eternity!"

iospace posted:

So what fit would you recommend for a Minokawa then?

Basically, this is your base fit, with two modules left blank:

code:

[Minokawa, max buffer triple rep]
Capital Emergency Hull Energizer I
Power Diagnostic System II
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II

EM Ward Field II
Thermal Dissipation Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Capital Shield Extender II
[Empty Med slot]
Capital Capacitor Booster I

Capital Remote Shield Booster I
Capital Remote Shield Booster I
Capital Remote Shield Booster I
Capital Remote Capacitor Transmitter I
[Empty High slot]
Triage Module II

Capital Core Defense Field Extender I
Capital Core Defense Field Extender I
Capital Core Defense Field Extender I

You swap what's in the empties based on the situation you're jumping into. The spare mid can either be a kinetic hardener or a second shield extender. The spare high can be a smartbomb, cyno, compact capital nos, heavy neut, etc. -- whatever you need. You carry spares of both PDS and RCU mods for your lows in your SMA, and swap between them as needed to get the necessary grid.

Active tank fits generally swap out the mids for a capital shield booster, two boost amps, em hardener, two invulns, and injector. You can leave the highs the same, but you won't have cap to run more than two reps, and you usually offline one of the reps to free up grid/cpu for your tank.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 06:08

Mekchu: Apr 10, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Deadline to signup for the EVE_NT Cup was a few days ago but we got around 12 teams to join so :toot:

for that.

Should be a good tournament if the Fall Season's Minor League was any indication.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 06:22

L0cke17: Nov 29, 2013

ullerrm posted:

about triage

So for delve stuff, we've been theorycrafting lifs because of their dual armor and shield bonuses to save dumbs who get tackled. Yes theyre worse than a dedicated armor or shield fax, but for some people who have both armor and shield supercaps, or groups who are split having both sets of modules fitted to the ship, and only having to online one or the other while sitting on the keepstar saves 30+ seconds if you have to dock and redock with the nonsense timers :ccp:

has foisted on us.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 07:07

Viva Miriya: Jan 9, 2007

L0cke17 posted:

So for delve stuff, we've been theorycrafting lifs because of their dual armor and shield bonuses to save dumbs who get tackled. Yes theyre worse than a dedicated armor or shield fax, but for some people who have both armor and shield supercaps, or groups who are split having both sets of modules fitted to the ship, and only having to online one or the other while sitting on the keepstar saves 30+ seconds if you have to dock and redock with the nonsense timers has foisted on us.

could you show me a fit, I'd like to do cool lif stuff

# ? Jan 10, 2017 07:08

iospace: Jan 19, 2038

L0cke17 posted:

So for delve stuff, we've been theorycrafting lifs because of their dual armor and shield bonuses to save dumbs who get tackled. Yes theyre worse than a dedicated armor or shield fax, but for some people who have both armor and shield supercaps, or groups who are split having both sets of modules fitted to the ship, and only having to online one or the other while sitting on the keepstar saves 30+ seconds if you have to dock and redock with the nonsense timers has foisted on us.

That's pretty much the main reason why I've been considering a Lif, the flexibility, which to me feels fine when you're on grid with a subcap fleet, but the moment you're with caps I'd rather have a Mino or a Apostle.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 07:10

Klyith: Aug 3, 2007; GBS Pledge Week

ullerrm posted:

Problem three: You can generally get just as much active tank out of an Apostle as you can out of a Ninazu -- resists contribute just as much towards active tanking as an active-tank bonus does.

Man remember when the active tank bonuses used to be 5% per level and were objectively worse than resist bonuses even for active tanking? Those were the days. Even the buff to 7.5% didn't really fix it, we needed ASBs and ACRs to make local rep generally viable in PVP. Funny how CCP immediately forgot that lesson for capitals, on a ship that has zero use besides PVP.

Is a capital ASB a thing that exists? I could see a use for the Lif or Ninazu in hot-drop situations if you're reasonably confident you're not going to be counter-escalated (or have a counter-counter waiting). In small numbers.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 07:45

gwrtheyrn: Oct 21, 2010; AYYYE DEEEEE DUBBALYOO DA-NYAAAAAH!

Klyith posted:

Is a capital ASB a thing that exists? I could see a use for the Lif or Ninazu in hot-drop situations if you're reasonably confident you're not going to be counter-escalated (or have a counter-counter waiting). In small numbers.

They exist but they're like 700mil so it's not exactly cost effective

# ? Jan 10, 2017 07:50

cheesetriangles: Jan 5, 2011

Klyith posted:

Man remember when the active tank bonuses used to be 5% per level and were objectively worse than resist bonuses even for active tanking? Those were the days. Even the buff to 7.5% didn't really fix it, we needed ASBs and ACRs to make local rep generally viable in PVP. Funny how CCP immediately forgot that lesson for capitals, on a ship that has zero use besides PVP.

Is a capital ASB a thing that exists? I could see a use for the Lif or Ninazu in hot-drop situations if you're reasonably confident you're not going to be counter-escalated (or have a counter-counter waiting). In small numbers.

Capitals are meant for ratting I thought not pvp?

# ? Jan 10, 2017 07:53

ullerrm: Dec 31, 2012; Oh, the network slogan is true -- "watch FOX and be damned for all eternity!"

Klyith posted:

Man remember when the active tank bonuses used to be 5% per level and were objectively worse than resist bonuses even for active tanking? Those were the days. Even the buff to 7.5% didn't really fix it, we needed ASBs and ACRs to make local rep generally viable in PVP. Funny how CCP immediately forgot that lesson for capitals, on a ship that has zero use besides PVP.

Is a capital ASB a thing that exists? I could see a use for the Lif or Ninazu in hot-drop situations if you're reasonably confident you're not going to be counter-escalated (or have a counter-counter waiting). In small numbers.

Capital ancillary reppers do exist. CASBs are stupid expensive, though, around 710M each. (Oddly enough, CAARs are much cheaper, at ~150M per, so they'd be sensible to use on a Ninazu.)

And, agreed, the niche of the Lif/Ninazu seems to be small-to-medium gang hot-drop fodder, where tanking 50k DPS for one minute is okay if you can decide the outcome of the fight in that minute.

They also added ancillary remote reppers too, btw, in the usual S/M/L/C sizes. You can only fit one per ship, and they rep a ton, but use the same rules as the local reps -- i.e. ARARs eat nanite paste and rep way less once they're out, ARSBs eat cap charges and are zero-cap until they run out. They're kinda fun as a spare emergency rep.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 08:10

Klyith: Aug 3, 2007; GBS Pledge Week

gwrtheyrn posted:

They exist but they're like 700mil so it's not exactly cost effective

I answered my own question by looking it up in pyfa and throwing together a dumb max-rep Lif.

Besides being 700m they're also the exact same capacity in number of charges (9) as subcap ASBs. So you can make an ASB Lif that can tank an entire battleship fleet, but under triage the ASB is cycling in just over 2 seconds!

ullerrm posted:

They also added ancillary remote reppers too, btw, in the usual S/M/L/C sizes. You can only fit one per ship, and they rep a ton, but use the same rules as the local reps -- i.e. ARARs eat nanite paste and rep way less once they're out, ARSBs eat cap charges and are zero-cap until they run out. They're kinda fun as a spare emergency rep.

Ooh, that's actually pretty cool! And they exist for subcaps too! I could see the capless shield xfers being a fun thing to throw in utility highs of non-logi ships.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 08:14

cybertier: May 2, 2013

So I recently got back to Eve and found my way into a german wormhole corp. On a "gently caress-around" to "Elitist PvP" Scale they are very relaxed but aiming for a higher standard.
There are many things that seem nonsensical but I'm very much The New Guy and won't try to argue too soon. Among some things we don't have a mapping tool.

Yesterday this happend https://zkillboard.com/kill/59044356/ because we brought a 1 billion ship into a hole without eyes on all incoming holes.
What got me wondering more is the fitting. Can someone spot a reasoning for this ship opposed to i.e. Guardians? Shouldn't there be a MJD?

# ? Jan 10, 2017 16:37

L0cke17: Nov 29, 2013

Viva Miriya posted:

could you show me a fit, I'd like to do cool lif stuff

We were thinking something like this:

[Lif, Lif fit]

Damage Control II
Co-Processor II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Capital Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 3200
Capital Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 3200
Capital Shield Booster I
Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier

Capital Remote Shield Booster I
Capital Remote Shield Booster I
Capital Remote Armor Repairer I /OFFLINE
Capital Remote Armor Repairer I /OFFLINE
Capital Remote Capacitor Transmitter I
Triage Module II

Capital Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Capital Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Capital Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Just online whichever you need before you jump. Only has ~20k local tank, but for small gangs thats more than sufficient. With both reps running and the local tank going full bore you get around 3 minutes of cap, with just 1 rep and your local you're good for close to 10 minutes.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 16:59

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

ullerrm posted:

You may not want to. The Ninazu and Lif both have weird bonuses, and the Ninazu has a really awful slot layout...

This stuff is really context-dependent. For solo triage stuff in wormholes, the ninazu is by far the best of the faxes because both the injector bonus and the active tank bonus are very useful and having tons of buffer isn't so important.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 17:06

1001 Arabian dicks: Sep 16, 2013; EVE ONLINE IS MY ENTIRE PERSONALITY BECAUSE IM A FRIENDLESS SEMILITERATE LOSER WHO WILL PEDANTICALLY DEMAND PROOF FOR BASIC THINGS LIKE GRAVITY OR THE EXISTENCE OF SELF. ASK ME ABOUT CHEATING AT TARKOV BECAUSE, WELL, SEE ABOVE

It's probably much easier to 66 the dumbo shield caps than get the required critical mass of lifs.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 17:36

ullerrm: Dec 31, 2012; Oh, the network slogan is true -- "watch FOX and be damned for all eternity!"

Oh, CCP, you're funny.

quote:

Due to an issue with the 119.1 release which resulted in server stability issues after its deployment, we will be re-deploying the 118.10 release while we work on a fix.

Tranquility is currently offline while we re-deploy 118.10, and will be brought back online as soon as this process is completed. We currently have no ETA on when Tranquility will be available for play again, however the development team is working rapidly to ensure this downtime is as short as possible.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 18:56

Mekchu: Apr 10, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Dear Video Games,

Can you change the thread title to Eve Online 2017: Currently offline until we re-deploy good posts

Thank you and God bless you.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 19:14

working mom: Jul 8, 2015

cybertier posted:

Yesterday this happend https://zkillboard.com/kill/59044356/ because we brought a 1 billion ship into a hole without eyes on all incoming holes.
What got me wondering more is the fitting. Can someone spot a reasoning for this ship opposed to i.e. Guardians? Shouldn't there be a MJD?

Nestors tank better but there are just too many drawbacks for them to be useful for reps outside of niche or blingy fits and even then you almost *have* to reply on cap boosters so they aren't good in extended fights, they are good for refits and utility however as they have a decent slot layout and low mass so do have some use as a supplement, for smartbombing drones for example and being an ECCM boat.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 19:58

ullerrm: Dec 31, 2012; Oh, the network slogan is true -- "watch FOX and be damned for all eternity!"

cybertier posted:

Yesterday this happend https://zkillboard.com/kill/59044356/ because we brought a 1 billion ship into a hole without eyes on all incoming holes.
What got me wondering more is the fitting. Can someone spot a reasoning for this ship opposed to i.e. Guardians? Shouldn't there be a MJD?

This particular fit doesn't make much sense to me. Most WH groups who use Nestor as logi do it because you can get massive amounts of tank and sensor strength and neut resistance on them. They're basically a fat Oneiros that won't get easily neuted out or alphaed or jammed.

(And they use a single plate and a ton of deadspace resist mods, because they want to keep the mass as low as possible while still having at least 150k EHP.)

This fit tries to do a bit of everything and fails at it all. It'd only make sense if it was being used as a refit and utility platform for a larger armor fleet.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 20:15

Viva Miriya: Jan 9, 2007

L0cke17 posted:

We were thinking something like this:

[Lif, Lif fit]

Damage Control II
Co-Processor II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Capital Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 3200
Capital Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 3200
Capital Shield Booster I
Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Dread Guristas Shield Boost Amplifier

Capital Remote Shield Booster I
Capital Remote Shield Booster I
Capital Remote Armor Repairer I /OFFLINE
Capital Remote Armor Repairer I /OFFLINE
Capital Remote Capacitor Transmitter I
Triage Module II

Capital Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Capital Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Capital Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

Just online whichever you need before you jump. Only has ~20k local tank, but for small gangs thats more than sufficient. With both reps running and the local tank going full bore you get around 3 minutes of cap, with just 1 rep and your local you're good for close to 10 minutes.

This looks legit. The most I would tweak it would be upgrading the Capboosters to T2 so you can use the cheaper regular 3200s and T2ing the Rigs. Gets you to cap stability (technically) with local tank and one repper running so long as you can keep injecting. Any more improvements and I think you lose cost effectiveness when it comes to fitting it out. Good work dude!

# ? Jan 10, 2017 20:17

working mom: Jul 8, 2015

Also that nestor is weird because they bought T2 rigs instead of getting faction lows which would be cheaper and IIRC give more tank

# ? Jan 10, 2017 20:27

iospace: Jan 19, 2038

ullerrm posted:

This particular fit doesn't make much sense to me. Most WH groups who use Nestor as logi do it because you can get massive amounts of tank and sensor strength and neut resistance on them. They're basically a fat Oneiros that won't get easily neuted out or alphaed or jammed.

(And they use a single plate and a ton of deadspace resist mods, because they want to keep the mass as low as possible while still having at least 150k EHP.)

This fit tries to do a bit of everything and fails at it all. It'd only make sense if it was being used as a refit and utility platform for a larger armor fleet.

I've known of a couple C2 groups living with a C5 static using nestors as logi boats on escalations alongside a vindicator to pin down the drifter.

e: yes, with enough guardians/nestors, you can run C5 sites in subcaps. Usually you use a T3 HAM legion fleet, using PVP fits.

iospace fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jan 10, 2017

# ? Jan 10, 2017 22:49

cybertier: May 2, 2013

Yeah I'm afraid those people might have about as much clue as I have. German wormhole corps is a very small niche to find a home in.
There was a second identical nestor which was the second logi for an about 10 ship strong armor fleet, consisting mostly of cruisers.
No "real" logi ship, but maybe because nobody really owns one? I didn't get to talk doctrine much yet.

Well they are really newbie friendly so maybe we will all grow together. As poor as we will be out of our C2 home.

iospace posted:

I've known of a couple C2 groups living with a C5 static using nestors as logi boats on escalations alongside a vindicator to pin down the drifter.

e: yes, with enough guardians/nestors, you can run C5 sites in subcaps. Usually you use a T3 HAM legion fleet, using PVP fits.

I don't think they ever did C5 sites together and it's listed under pvp fittings.
I think I should bring up that Logistics Ships might fit out doctrine better.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 23:02

iospace: Jan 19, 2038

cybertier posted:

Yeah I'm afraid those people might have about as much clue as I have. German wormhole corps is a very small niche to find a home in.
There was a second identical nestor which was the second logi for an about 10 ship strong armor fleet, consisting mostly of cruisers.
No "real" logi ship, but maybe because nobody really owns one? I didn't get to talk doctrine much yet.

Well they are really newbie friendly so maybe we will all grow together. As poor as we will be out of our C2 home.

I don't think they ever did C5 sites together and it's listed under pvp fittings.
I think I should bring up that Logistics Ships might fit out doctrine better.

C5s are weird. Obviously everyone who lived up there is whining that it's dying because of ~escalation changes~, completely disregarding the fact that there are two completely unassailable groups in C5 space. No really, it's hard to motivate people to move to C5 space when there's a threat of losing your entire cap fleet, citadels as they online, or, worst case, getting evicted by Hard Knocks or Lazerhawks. If they hear you're onlining a Fort, they will try to find you.

But that's more a topic for the other thread.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 23:16

cybertier: May 2, 2013

iospace posted:

C5s are weird. Obviously everyone who lived up there is whining that it's dying because of ~escalation changes~, completely disregarding the fact that there are two completely unassailable groups in C5 space. No really, it's hard to motivate people to move to C5 space when there's a threat of losing your entire cap fleet, citadels as they online, or, worst case, getting evicted by Hard Knocks or Lazerhawks. If they hear you're onlining a Fort, they will try to find you.

But that's more a topic for the other thread.

To not get into politics but didn't Hole Squad use to live in a C5? Where are you guys nowadays? If I remember correctly that you are a member there.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 23:20

iospace: Jan 19, 2038

cybertier posted:

To not get into politics but didn't Hole Squad use to live in a C5? Where are you guys nowadays? If I remember correctly that you are a member there.

I'm a wormholer, sure, but not in hole squad.

# ? Jan 10, 2017 23:43

Carth Dookie: Jan 28, 2013

cybertier posted:

To not get into politics but didn't Hole Squad use to live in a C5? Where are you guys nowadays? If I remember correctly that you are a member there.

A very long time ago hole squad did live in a c5.

# ? Jan 11, 2017 01:32

iospace: Jan 19, 2038

What's the percentage of C5s with C5 or C6s statics again?

# ? Jan 11, 2017 02:26

cybertier: May 2, 2013

iospace posted:

I'm a wormholer, sure, but not in hole squad.

Carth Dookie posted:

A very long time ago hole squad did live in a c5.

Yaay, I was at least half right.

# ? Jan 11, 2017 11:45

Zephyrine: Jun 10, 2014; This is what meat is supposed to be like, dingus

Help me Flanders!

The fullmoon is upon me and I feel the need to fire missiles.

Help me make a Phoenix for anti capital and anti structure work that is superior to the Naglfar.

The budget would be around 3 billion for fittings.

# ? Jan 11, 2017 13:30

Mekchu: Apr 10, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Thank you for the new title VideoJuegos

Mekchu fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Jan 11, 2017

# ? Jan 11, 2017 14:35

VideoGames: Aug 18, 2003

No problem! I love fixing titles, and avs and thread tags.

# ? Jan 11, 2017 14:58

iospace: Jan 19, 2038

Oh, regarding the Nestor, I dug up this old article by :ullerrm:

https://www.themittani.com/news/fixing-nestor

# ? Jan 11, 2017 17:19

1001 Arabian dicks: Sep 16, 2013; EVE ONLINE IS MY ENTIRE PERSONALITY BECAUSE IM A FRIENDLESS SEMILITERATE LOSER WHO WILL PEDANTICALLY DEMAND PROOF FOR BASIC THINGS LIKE GRAVITY OR THE EXISTENCE OF SELF. ASK ME ABOUT CHEATING AT TARKOV BECAUSE, WELL, SEE ABOVE

Zephyrine posted:

Help me Flanders!

The fullmoon is upon me and I feel the need to fire missiles.

Help me make a Phoenix for anti capital and anti structure work that is superior to the Naglfar.

The budget would be around 3 billion for fittings.

i don't think there is a solo fit to kill capitals with a phoenix

# ? Jan 11, 2017 17:45

Venom Snake: Feb 19, 2014; by Nyc_Tattoo

cybertier posted:

To not get into politics but didn't Hole Squad use to live in a C5? Where are you guys nowadays? If I remember correctly that you are a member there.

We live in goku! Most of our time is spent making fits

# ? Jan 11, 2017 18:02

cybertier: May 2, 2013

iospace posted:

Oh, regarding the Nestor, I dug up this old article by

https://www.themittani.com/news/fixing-nestor

Thanks for the link, that was really enlightening. And thanks to :ullerrm:

for writing it!
I'll definitely bring up switching out our Nestors for more dedicated ships. What practical considerations are there for using Guardians vs Oneiros'?

Just looking at the bonuses the Guardian is better when cap chaining and the Oneiros in smaller groups?

cybertier fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Jan 11, 2017

# ? Jan 11, 2017 18:06