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I am 100% certain that all the Venezuelan officials named are just law-abiding public servants. Why would any of them have substantial US assets to seize in the first place? I'm sure they will laugh this off heartily, for they are but humble guardians of peace and socialism who get by on their normal salary. They are definitely not skimming millions of dollars off the top by trafficking narcotics, embezzlement, and currency manipulation.
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Jul 27, 2017 00:32
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As your reminder once again, if the US wanted to force the collapse of the Venezuelan government, they would refuse to allow PDVSA/Citgo to import any Venezuelan oil to the US and refuse to allow the export of refined oil products back to Venezuela. This would simultaneously kill the vast majority of Venezuela's foreign income and also cripple their primary imports of vital fuel and other oil products needed to keep the country running.
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Jul 27, 2017 00:50
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Though that's on it's way to happening anyways, since the PSUV can't properly maintain the oil infrastructure they do have.
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Jul 27, 2017 02:01
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Unfortunately there's a non-zero chance that Trump will place some kind of sanction on PDVSA, possibly even via a ban on importing oil from Venezuela. The word on the street is that Washington is keeping those types of sanctions on the table in case Maduro goes ahead with the Constituent Assembly vote on July 30. I'm not entirely convinced yet that even targeted sanctions against regime officials like the kind that we saw today are effective for the purposes of dislodging the regime from power, so I think that any broader sanction would be an absolute disaster. Venezuela earns almost 100% of its national income from oil sales. If you cut that off, you'll cut off whatever little food and medicine is still trickling in. One of the people sanctioned today, Iris Varela, reacted to the news through her Twitter account. This is what she posted. The caption reads "This is my response for the gringos. Like Chavez said, "Go to hell, you loving yankees'". https://twitter.com/irisvarela/status/890297761953959936 Varela is probably in the top 3 of the "Worst Human Beings Alive in Venezuela Today" list. She was Minister of Penitentiaries for quite a few years, and ran the country's prison system like a feudal kingdom. She's also running for the Constituent Assembly, so look for her to help write a new national constitution starting next week! In other news, there were two protest-related fatalities today, both in Merida. They were Rafael Vergara (30) and Enderson Caldera (23). Right now, it's looking like both men were killed by National Guard soldiers while protesting. The Public Ministry's official count of protest-related fatalities since April 1 now sits at 102. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 02:09
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Peel posted:he does explicitly say they are 'working hard' to make sure it is 'stable and democratic', which is not a combination of concepts I particularly like in the mouth of the CIA There's a well rehearsed script for this kind of work, I suspect most American effort is focused into efforts similar to those which led to the electoral defeat and overthrow of Slobodan Milosevic in 2000 by an opposition coalition. There's a rough summary of US efforts then here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor!#Revelation_of_U.S._involvement In Serbia America pressured the diverse opposition parties to form a grand coalition against Milosevic. American money helped them organize party activists and fund campaigns, while they also benefited from technical and strategic expertise from professional American marketing firms and campaign managers. This sort of activity is primarily handled through State and private contracting firms and nonprofits. CIA would be more likely to focus on developing contacts within the army and government. I haven't seen any indication of more aggressive activity but if that yahoo who stole a helicopter can find a CIA handler he's likely to at least get some pocket change for recruiting supporters if not actually arms just yet.
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Jul 27, 2017 02:48
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Chuck Boone posted:Unfortunately there's a non-zero chance that Trump will place some kind of sanction on PDVSA, possibly even via a ban on importing oil from Venezuela. The word on the street is that Washington is keeping those types of sanctions on the table in case Maduro goes ahead with the Constituent Assembly vote on July 30. I'm not entirely convinced yet that even targeted sanctions against regime officials like the kind that we saw today are effective for the purposes of dislodging the regime from power, so I think that any broader sanction would be an absolute disaster. Venezuela earns almost 100% of its national income from oil sales. If you cut that off, you'll cut off whatever little food and medicine is still trickling in. Jesus, what would happen if the trigger got pulled on that? Full Somaliaization?
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Jul 27, 2017 03:28
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wdarkk posted:Jesus, what would happen if the trigger got pulled on that? Full Somaliaization? Essentially, Venezuela loses the vast majority of their refined oil products overnight. They would be getting very little gasoline or diesel beyond the meager amount their own local refineries can put out once the last ship that left before the ban returned to port in Venezuela. It's not clear the precise ratio, but it's somewhere around like 5%-10% of Venezuela's refined petroleum needs, at best, that can be handled with their native crude oil type from local refineries. It also means around 25% of Venezuela's oil sales have gone away too, and they are not going to get the same favorable charges for refining oil that Citgo charges them in the US at any other country that can and does buy and refine their oil. Plus even if they can afford to get enough capacity up and running in other places to meet their needs, that's going to take easily weeks to being those refined products back to VZ, in the midst of which they'd have a near total lack of gasoline, diesel, et cetera. It would make America's oil crisis in the 70s look like a bounty of oil availability. After all, at least when that happened America could still supply and refine a pretty huge chunk of its native demand to power the country through the OPEC boycott.
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Jul 27, 2017 03:51
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Chuck Boone posted:The argument that corporate media in the U.S. would be supportive of the violent repression of protests is, 1) neither here nor there, and 2) arguing that "if the U.S. does it, then it's good", which is an absurd argument to make. I don't see what the media's take on what the government does has to do with the government being authoritarian or not. Feinne posted:I think the thing to keep in mind is that while of course the CIA is always going to support whatever outcome they consider most favorable to the US, sometimes this outcome is coincidentally also better for the people on the ground. fnox posted:I'll be blunt, there was a time when any sort of conversation about "imperialism" was relevant and that was 15 years ago with the April 11th coup. DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:so I keep seeing dumb tankies talking about the opposition burning people alive. what's the origin of that gruesome meme? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2plIj-zeMsk Chuck Boone posted:For what it's worth, I haven't heard of anyone getting burned alive by the opposition Polidoro posted:Nobody is white you loving moron. What's with you idiots and making everything about race? wdarkk posted:Jesus, what would happen if the trigger got pulled on that? Full Somaliaization?
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Jul 27, 2017 04:33
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Bob le Moche posted:To many leftists this does matter because the important question is not whether the government is "authoritarian" or not Clearly
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Jul 27, 2017 04:47
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Bob le Moche posted:To many leftists this does matter because the important question is not whether the government is "authoritarian" or not, but what class interests it serves. Every actually existing government is "authoritarian" because every government relies on the threat of violence from police or the army and criminalizes & incarcerates people. The question is who is this violence directed against: under capitalism it's always the poor, the marginalized, etc, who are criminalized, while the ruling class, the owners, can get away with murder, or receive massive state bailouts for destroying the economy. The US for example incarcerates a larger percentage of its population than any other society (25% of the world's prisoners) and projects military power all over the planet. It is, however, rarely considered an "authoritarian" country in mainstream discourse because the people this violence is directed against do not own any mass media businesses, do not have any platforms for their voices to be heard, and can be safely ignored because they are unable to defend themselves. Ellner points out the fact corporate media is taking the side of the protesters, when in most countries they systematically side with law enforcement against leftists, because to him this is an indicator that the protests in Venezuela represent the interests of the bourgeoisie, the business owners. I've read your post, I understand your points, and I disagree with them in their entirety. 1. On Ellner's "authoritarian" argument: Let me begin by saying that I am sure that Ellner did not use the word "authoritarian" in the way that you claim that he did. I agree with you that in the purest dogmatic Marxist sense, every government is authoritarian. However, I think that you are wrong in understanding the word this way. By your understanding, both Denmark and North Korea are "authoritarian" in the same way that a high school math teacher and a Supreme Court judge are "authority figures". These are absurd assertions, aren't they? This is because we understand both of those terms ("authoritarian" and "authority figure") on a gradient scale. There is a scale of "authoritarianism". On one end of the ""authoritarianism" scale you have government that we generally call democracies, and on the other you have governments that we generally call dictatorships. Yes, the governments of Denmark and North Korea both rely on the monopoly of violence to perpetuate power structures, but to suggest that the two are equal is as absurd as suggesting that an order from Mr. Johnson down in Room 301 and one from Chief Justice Roberts carry the same weight. This simply isn't how we understand and use the word "authoritarian". 2. Let's continue as if your argument were correct. In that case, this is Ellner's argument: "Maduro's government is not authoritarian because the corporate media is siding with the protesters and represent the bourgeoisie and business owners." That is a non sequitur. If I want to argue "A is B", I should provide a list of characteristics that A and B share. If I want to argue that "A is not B", I should provide a list of characteristics that A and B do not share. For example, I can say, "Smoking (A) is not healthy (B) because it damages your lungs and can lead to cancer". In that example, "damages your lungs" and "can lead to cancer" are characteristics of things that are "not healthy". Ellner disagrees with the statement "the Maduro government is authoritarian", so he should provide a list of characteristics that the Maduro regime does not share with authoritarian regimes (for starters). This is not what he does. By talking about media portrayals of the protests, he's dancing around the issue. The Maduro regime may very well be very authoritarian (it is) and the media may side with protesters (it does). Those two things can be (and are) true at the same time. Bob le Moche posted:
The rest of my post explaining why it's nonsensical to take a single incident of violence to demonize 60-70% of the country still stands. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 06:04
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If you start from the premise that food and medicine are bad, you'll actually find that comrade Maduro is objectively good.
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Jul 27, 2017 06:12
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To live is to suffer according to Marxist views so Maduro is doing god's work by ending lives early. As for the lynchings, though, its hard to blame them on the Empire and the CIA when the reality of it is that they happen because the rule of law has collapsed and people have started taking justice in their own hands. You'll see the same thing happen in cities that are as violent as Caracas and the only way to stop it is to dismantle corruption within police forces, something that is nearly impossible to do if all the powers above it are as corrupt. fnox fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 06:58
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Chuck Boone posted:2. Let's continue as if your argument were correct. In that case, this is Ellner's argument: "Maduro's government is not authoritarian because the corporate media is siding with the protesters and represent the bourgeoisie and business owners." That is a non sequitur. If I want to argue "A is B", I should provide a list of characteristics that A and B share. If I want to argue that "A is not B", I should provide a list of characteristics that A and B do not share. For example, I can say, "Smoking (A) is not healthy (B) because it damages your lungs and can lead to cancer". In that example, "damages your lungs" and "can lead to cancer" are characteristics of things that are "not healthy". Ellner disagrees with the statement "the Maduro government is authoritarian", so he should provide a list of characteristics that the Maduro regime does not share with authoritarian regimes (for starters). This is not what he does. By talking about media portrayals of the protests, he's dancing around the issue. The Maduro regime may very well be very authoritarian (it is) and the media may side with protesters (it does). Those two things can be (and are) true at the same time. Yeah I actually agree with this point. The argument of the article is badly structured and dances around the issue. I was probably giving it too much credit. EDIT: fnox posted:To live is to suffer according to Marxist views so Maduro is doing god's work by ending lives early. Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 07:15
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Oh I'm sorry my mistake I thought your fetishistic support for the continued suffering of the Venezuelan people was a general Marxist thing.
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Jul 27, 2017 08:26
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fnox posted:Oh I'm sorry my mistake I thought your fetishistic support for the continued suffering of the Venezuelan people was a general Marxist thing. Throughout history there has been a boatload of "Communist" talking points that essentially say that suffering is noble and necessary while everything a person doesn't need to survive (and sometimes things they do) are bourgeois excesses of the oppressor class. In fact, this was probably one of the main ideas behind the Khmer Rouge. Of course this has nothing to do with Venezuela, which isn't communist or even socialist but a good old fashioned authoritarian regime run by a fat little busdriver chucklefuck nearly as stupid as Donald Trump. That being said, at least it seems like our tankie is starting to become more willing to actually learn and engage in an honest way so that's good
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Jul 27, 2017 08:50
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Bob le Moche posted:This is the incident I believe. It's extremely worrisome that none of the supposedly informed pro-opposition posters, including Chuck (?!?!) in this thread seems to have any knowledge of it, or refrained from answering your question of they do: Yup, that's the one I was thinking about. I'd seen that video before, and the interview with the mother at the hospital. It's part of what got me into looking into the situation in Venezuela in the first place. Much like how the beheadings by British people flying over to Syria got me looking into Syria. Also the mentality of the people committing the Drug killings in the Philippines, a they seem to be fueled by a similar mob/doing justice mentality. I heard there had been several of them and this is one of the only ones that had been quite so openly committed and subsequently filmed. I had wondered if anyone on the ground had heard about these incidences and whether or not they knew of circumstances surrounding them. I am actually quite surprised that no-one here seemed to know about these. Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 10:19
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Kokoro Wish posted:Yup, that's the one I was thinking about. I'd seen that video before, and the interview with the mother at the hospital. It's part of what got me into looking into the situation in Venezuela in the first place. Much like how the beheadings by British people flying over to Syria got me looking into Syria. Also the mentality of the people committing the Drug killings in the Philippines, a they seem to be fueled by a similar mob/doing justice mentality. Probably because he didn't die, and people who get badly injured but don't die don't make it into the list of fatalities and AFAIK no one is tracking injuries (even serious ones). Also that's a poo poo video trying to make it all about race. Is it possible it was motivated in part by institutional racism against black people?? Possibly, but why the gently caress would the video bring it up here without a poo poo ton more evidence unless they're trying to dogwhistle that opposition = racists? Lots of mestizos and whites have been murdered / attacked by vigilantes also. Saladman fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 10:35
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Saladman posted:Probably because he didn't die, and people who get badly injured but don't die don't make it into the list of fatalities and AFAIK no one is tracking injuries (even serious ones). Actually apparently his did die of those injuries subsequently.
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Jul 27, 2017 10:39
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Kokoro Wish posted:Yup, that's the one I was thinking about. I'd seen that video before, and the interview with the mother at the hospital. It's part of what got me into looking into the situation in Venezuela in the first place. Much like how the beheadings by British people flying over to Syria got me looking into Syria. Also the mentality of the people committing the Drug killings in the Philippines, a they seem to be fueled by a similar mob/doing justice mentality. That poo poo shocks you but this doesn't do anything for you? https://twitter.com/MariaAlesiaSosa/status/885970345089478656 I am not particularly stunned that somebody was lynched because a crowd, justifiably or not, thought that person was a burglar. It happens all the time, outside of protests, and most commonly in the subway. A friend of mine has witnessed 4 or 5 separate instances of mob lynchings, there was one case of a thief who sicced a crowd against his victim. That's what happens when there's no justice as criminals roam free, people become enraged and hysteric and it results in this kinda poo poo happening. Welcome to every day life in Caracas, now you know why I left as fast as I did. I mean of course the loving idiots at Telesur want to make it all about race but considering almost 90% of the population is against Maduro and more than half of the population are mestizo, it's hard to argue that this is somehow a racist lynching. Seriously, go find a Venezuelan. Go out of your way to find someone of Venezuelan descent, look at their skin colour. The only reason why you would ever argue this whole crisis has anything to do with race is because you have no idea of what a Venezuelan looks like. fnox fucked around with this message at 11:12 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 11:06
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This is why I'm hear asking questions and watching the videos you guys put up. It's informative? And yes, I know that TeleSur is based in the region and that their slant is most likely to be pro-Bolivar. I treat everything with a big pinch of salt. And no, that police beating unfortunately doesn't shock me as much as someone running around on fire or a beheading. The fire has a more immediate and visceral response, while members of a police force abusing their authority is unfortunately a more common occurrence globally. I don't excuse it, at all, it's always nasty to see no matter what country or political system it happens under, but yes, you see it alot thanks to the internet. Though if you look hard enough, you see alot of burnings and lynchings as well I guess. And you say the lynchings are actually a common occurrence? I assume it's on the increase due to shortages causing more people to both steal, thereby exacerbating that kind of retaliation, but was it a thing that happened before all this? Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 11:45 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 11:28
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Kokoro Wish posted:This is why I'm hear asking questions and watching the videos you guys put up. It's informative Ah of course that doesn't quite do it for you, you need something more gory to get off, I understand. The police beating up a passerby who happens to be autistic just doesn't register. And yes, I am saying that lynchings are a common occurrence and have been so for a while to the point of the government speaking out against it. It was a common occurrence when I left and it still is as nothing has changed. This didn't happen 10 years ago because back then crime rates were nowhere near as high. Stealing has nothing to do with shortages, people steal cellphones and other valuables, mostly, it has to do with how there is very little reason for anybody to not steal. If the police aren't gonna catch you, and if you can make the money you'll make from 6 months of wages in a single mugging, you'll start mugging people.
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Jul 27, 2017 11:46
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Squalid posted:There's a well rehearsed script for this kind of work, I suspect most American effort is focused into efforts similar to those which led to the electoral defeat and overthrow of Slobodan Milosevic in 2000 by an opposition coalition. There's a rough summary of US efforts then here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otpor!#Revelation_of_U.S._involvement Isn't US State currently pretty rudderless right now? Trump has done a number on it.
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Jul 27, 2017 11:51
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Peel posted:Isn't US State currently pretty rudderless right now? Trump has done a number on it. They're not rudderless in as much a Trump has given them free reign to do what they want and only come to him with results. This is both for the Military and the Intelligence services. He'd like the credit, but doesn't want to be bothered with the details. So basically they've been given control of their respective rudders without oversight.
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Jul 27, 2017 11:59
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I do see now that Figuera died from his injuries in hospital some days after the attack. I've mentioned a few times that my count and the Public Ministry's official count were off by one (the Public Ministry count had +1 more fatalities than mine). I believe this might be the +1. I don't feel the need to defend myself for not knowing about this case.Kokoro Wish posted:And no, that police beating unfortunately doesn't shock me as much as someone running around on fire or a beheading. The fire has a more immediate and visceral response, while members of a police force abusing their authority is unfortunately a more common occurrence globally. I don't excuse it, at all, it's always nasty to see no matter what country or political system it happens under, but yes, you see it alot thanks to the internet. Though if you look hard enough, you see alot of burnings and lynchings as well I guess. I'm not attacking you, but it seems like you have something like a "Hierarchy of Shocking Violence". Beheading ---> Immolation ---> Brutal beating --> Regular beating? I think I agree with this. But I think cases of people getting burned alive strike more of a nerve with me than cases of people getting beheaded. Specially if there is a video to go along with it. And that is precisely the point that I made earlier. As you have said, there is something "more immediate" and "visceral" about that particular case, probably helped by the fact that we have clear video of the act. And guess what--Telesur, the international propaganda arm of the Maduro regime, knows this. That's why they went through the trouble of spotlighting the case, making a video about it, translating it into English, etc. Why didn't Telesur produce an informative video for its international audience on May 4 when a two-month-old baby died from tear gas exposure because the National Guard were particularly trigger-happy that day? Where is the Telesur translation of this video into English, which shows regime militias murdering Paola Ramirez on a street like a dog because she dared to attend an opposition demonstration? Do you see what Telesur's goal is in running away with a story like Figuera's, but ignoring other stories that are arguably as shocking, and in any case still involve tragic death? If you watched that Telesur video and found yourself indignant at the "opposition violence" while ignoring the regime's baseline violence and instances where the regime has killed protesters, then you've played straight into their hands. Kokoro Wish posted:And you say the lynchings are actually a common occurrence? I assume it's on the increase due to shortages causing more people to both steal, thereby exacerbating that kind of retaliation, but was it a thing that happened before all this? I would attribute lynchings not so much to shortages (although we could expect economic hardship to have an affect on crime rates, specially for things like theft and robbery), but rather to the collapse of governance. People just don't trust the police and judicial system to handle these types of crime. Mano dura-type attitudes towards crime are not unique to Venezuela, and are actually relatively common throughout Latin America. EDIT: To answer your questions, no, lynchings are not new to Venezuela. The country has had a crime problem and an administration of justice problem for many, many years. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 12:31
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Bob le Moche posted:To many leftists this does matter because the important question is not whether the government is "authoritarian" or not, but what class interests it serves. Every actually existing government is "authoritarian" because every government relies on the threat of violence from police or the army and criminalizes & incarcerates people. The question is who is this violence directed against: under capitalism it's always the poor, the marginalized, etc, who are criminalized, while the ruling class, the owners, can get away with murder, or receive massive state bailouts for destroying the economy. I think this is the funniest part, because Maduro's government literally lets the ruling class get away with murder and supports them via the state even as they destroy the economy, while oppressing the poor and marginalized (while ever increasing the portion of the country that belongs to that class). Capitalism isn't the only system that targets the poor and marginalized for oppression - it wasn't the first, and it's not been the worst. Maduro's government is just as committed as any capitalist government is to letting the oligarchs and the wealthy elites do whatever they want so long as it's the right wealthy elite - but then, that's true of most revolutions in history, it's not a question of which class is served, it's a question of "who gets to be in the class on top" And Maduro definitely sticks to favouring the ruling class over everyone else.
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Jul 27, 2017 16:09
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There's been a lot of talk about the Constituent Assembly leaning towards Diosdado's radical wing in the government. It's important to remember that when the assembly is seated, it'll supersede all other government branches and the thing is chock full of crazies that are bought and paid for so whoever ends up in charge is basically going to be the new president. In the past, we came close to Diosdado taking power when Chavez died, for example. According to the Constitution, he should've been named interim president back then (because he led the National Assembly) but Chavez anointed Maduro instead, who was Vice president at that moment. People (including me) have always thought about Diosdado as sort of a power behind the throne, particularly with Maduro. Not so much in the sense that he's been making all the decisions, but in that his cronies are probably in charge of the drug-trafficking and militaristic wing of the government. It's curious to see what's going to happen after the Constituent Assembly is seated, but I'm pretty sure he's going to be much more radical than his predecessors.
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Jul 27, 2017 17:31
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GlyphGryph posted:but then, that's true of most revolutions in history, it's not a question of which class is served, it's a question of "who gets to be in the class on top" The notion that there can be no alternative, that oligarchy is an iron rule, or that oppression and exploitation are natural and inevitable, is a very convenient ideological belief for the people on top to be pushing onto the masses. But even if it was true, and equality was impossible, who could then then blame anyone for trying to be the ones on top?
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Jul 27, 2017 18:00
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Bob le Moche posted:The notion that there can be no alternative, that oligarchy is an iron rule, or that oppression and exploitation are natural and inevitable, is a very convenient ideological belief for the people on top to be pushing onto the masses. But even if it was true, and equality was impossible, who could then then blame anyone for trying to be the ones on top?
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Jul 27, 2017 18:21
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El Aissami's assets may be in the hundreds of millions of dollars, claim anonymous US government source. I think a couple hundred million is a bit off, his seized US assets alone are several tens of millions. The man must have close to a billion, seeing how he's been around since the very beginning of the "revolution".
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Jul 27, 2017 19:35
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Venezuela "bans protests" between Friday and Tuesday. The BBC article on it ( http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-40744851 ) does not say who banned protests, as I imagine this is something that would require a law passed by the AN, but maybe since it's a short-term thing it could be done by the executive legally. Not that "legally" means anything anymore. I don't see TeleSur mention the ban at all, what a surprise. So I wonder if this means hundreds will be arrested and Venezuela will add to its number of political prisoners by a huge multiplier? I guess it'd better get ready for adding political prisoners by the boatload, given the extra powers Maduro will have as soon as the new constitution goes into effect. E: In other news, BsF is now just a fraction under 10,000 to the dollar, a nice round number and a 90% drop since October 2016. Saladman fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Jul 27, 2017 |
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Jul 27, 2017 21:04
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How much was 10,000 BsF 5 years ago?
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Jul 27, 2017 21:12
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Baloogan posted:How much was 10,000 BsF 5 years ago? The black market dollar started 2012 at around Bs8.7 to $1 and closed at BsF17 or so. At the end of that year, Bs10,000 would've bought you approximately $588. This site has a nice chart including the black market rates for the last few years (http://inmueblescaracas.com.ve/tips/bolivardolar.htm).
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Jul 27, 2017 22:12
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There have been six protest-related fatalities over the last 36 hours or so. Earlier in the day I could have sworn that I had counted seven, but that must be because I saw a report on Twitter that turned out later to not be true. Anyway, the six known fatalities are three from yesterday and three from today:
As you can probably tell from the number of deaths, today has been really rough in a lot of places around the country. I'm seeing an unusual number of reports of people suffering from gunshot wounds received while protesting today. The day started relatively quietly in a lot of places in the country. The video below shows streets in Maracaibo, Zulia state (a city of about 2.6 million people) devoid of human life this morning at around 9:30 AM as people stayed home for the general strike: https://twitter.com/MariaCorinaYA/status/890583363253358593 Clashes between protesters and security forces had started in many places by the noon hour, however. On a road near Chachopo, Merida state, residents intercepted a National Guard truck and burned it: https://twitter.com/RCamachoVzla/status/890605653181440000 The video below shows the moment that a journalist was arrested by National Guard soldiers in Montalban, Caracas: https://twitter.com/VPITV/status/890676260887683072 In San Cristobal, Tachira state, regime militias terrorized residents and shot at protesters: https://twitter.com/gabyarellanoVE/status/890685216427323392 Below, the image on the left shows three militia members, their faces covered and armed. The image on the right shows a common sight in Venezuela: a National Guard soldier rides on his motorcycle with a militia member. Note that the militia member is wearing civilian clothing and carrying what appears to be an M16 assault rifle. Is the man with the rifle a police officer/soldier in civilian clothing? Is he simply a pro-regime civilian? Who knows: https://twitter.com/gabyarellanoVE/status/890679086846283777 Maduro also called National Assembly vice president Freddy Guevara "Hitler's lapdog", said that there was a jail cell waiting for him, and practically in the same breath called on the opposition to sit down and dialogue with the regime. Saladman posted:Venezuela "bans protests" between Friday and Tuesday. The BBC article on it ( http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-40744851 ) does not say who banned protests, as I imagine this is something that would require a law passed by the AN, but maybe since it's a short-term thing it could be done by the executive legally. Not that "legally" means anything anymore. I don't see TeleSur mention the ban at all, what a surprise. The opposition responded to the ban by calling for massive protests tomorrow, Saturday and Sunday.
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Jul 28, 2017 01:07
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yeah things are gonna get really bad this weekend https://twitter.com/andrewbeatty/status/890721239240765440
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Jul 28, 2017 01:15
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Peel posted:Isn't US State currently pretty rudderless right now? Trump has done a number on it. Well USAID's page listing pro-democracy funding for Venezuela looks like it hasn't been updated since November 9th, 2016 and their most recent figure is from 2015, so yeah seems like it. A lot of this stuff is handled through private contractors or semi-independent organizations and there's a lot of overlap in strategy with intelligence agencies I think. Identifying a serious anti-government campaign by the US as it unfolds is not easy, but a really expansive operation today might resemble say the 2004 Haitian coup d'etat. I would be surprised if anything went that far, if only because given the last 15 years I think its clear the US security establishment has judged the Venezuelan government mostly harmless. Given Trumps allergy to humanitarian concerns and spending I doubt he's going to be interested in any expensive efforts for the benefit of Venezuelan democracy. I could be wrong of course.
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Jul 28, 2017 03:19
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Venezuela is pretty much harmless to US interests. They have no way to harm the US in any substantial fashion-- even an oil embargo would just lead to the US's oil industry expanding further like it has been the past few years. I think supporting a properly democratic government in Venezuela is something worth doing in it's own right, however. The US should reserve an oil embargo as a tool of last resort, though.
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Jul 28, 2017 05:04
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I'd be interested in hearing what the Venegoons have to say about all of this, but I felt a pretty strong sense of dread come over me today after the day's events. Aside from the six people killed I listed earlier, there has now been a seventh fatality: Rafael Canache (28), shot and killed by National Guard soldiers while protesting in Piritu, Anzoategui state. I'd have to go over my records carefully, but I'm confident in saying that we haven't had this many people shot dead by the National Guard in a two-day period before. A lot of my WhatsApp groups have gone dark because there are scattered blackouts happening around the country (specially in Caracas), and it's never clear what the reason for them is. Avianca (which is a big regional airline out of Colombia) announced yesterday that it was halting operations in Venezuela starting next month. Then, this morning, it made another announcement: "Wait, nevermind. We're actually stopping all operations today. Goodbye!". The airline had served the country for decades. Delta also announced today that it was halting all operations in the country starting in September. That's two airlines in one day and something like 9 airlines since 2014 (Lufthansa, Air Canada...). Not only did Avianca pull out today unexpectedly, it also appears to be avoiding Venezuelan airspace altogether: https://twitter.com/jammastergirish/status/890692560401858561 That, plus the news from the U.S. embassy about the family member evacuation makes me feel like these people know something the rest of us don't. The opposition is calling for people to go out and protest tomorrow, Saturday and Sunday despite the government ban on protests. The next three days are going to be heavy. Beyond that...
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Jul 28, 2017 05:30
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Jesus, that the US is removing diplomatic personnel from the country is really serious stuff. They must know something we don't, and what they know must be horrible. God knows what's gonna happen to the country after this Sunday.
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Jul 28, 2017 08:33
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fnox posted:Jesus, that the US is removing diplomatic personnel from the country is really serious stuff. They must know something we don't, and what they know must be horrible. God knows what's gonna happen to the country after this Sunday. Well the families of diplomatic personnel. If they were evacuating the embassy poo poo would well and truly be about to hit the fan. This is still one whole step away from that.
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Jul 28, 2017 09:48
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Bates posted:Well the families of diplomatic personnel. If they were evacuating the embassy poo poo would well and truly be about to hit the fan. This is still one whole step away from that. I'm 95% sure they're also letting the rest of the employees leave voluntarily, according to a Reuters tweet I say, but I'm too lazy to look it up. I suppose that's a notch below poo poo hitting the fan. Chuck Boone posted:I'd be interested in hearing what the Venegoons have to say about all of this, but I felt a pretty strong sense of dread come over me today after the day's events. Aside from the six people killed I listed earlier, there has now been a seventh fatality: Rafael Canache (28), shot and killed by National Guard soldiers while protesting in Piritu, Anzoategui state. I'd have to go over my records carefully, but I'm confident in saying that we haven't had this many people shot dead by the National Guard in a two-day period before. There's a lot of dread alright. I haven't had any blackouts hit me so far, but the Avianca poo poo and the impending Constitutional Assembly are pretty nerve-wracking. According to Bocaranda, the president of the INAC (the body that regulates civilian flights) traveled to Colombia to talk with the Avianca people and he tried to threaten them, which only pushed them to hasten their departure. The idiot is a Chavista military man, so it's completely within character that he'd think civilian companies are subordinated to him. I'm just crossing my fingers there are still flights left when I leave before the end of the year. As for the Constituent, I'm not sure what to expect. The government won't back down at this stage so the MUD will probably continue to escalate protests. At some point, we'll probably start seeing mass looting in Caracas, which is when I think we'll know that poo poo really hit the fan.
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Jul 28, 2017 15:33
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