Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

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Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

Hey I hope you get better soon fnox, you haven't had any trouble getting antibiotics have you? Good luck to your family in all their endeavors

# ? Jul 25, 2017 15:05

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# ? May 18, 2024 10:52

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

fnox posted:

I happened to be hospitalised for the past week due to a complicated appendectomy, which is why I haven't been active either.

My family is making basically a break for it, they're leaving on short notice either this week or the next and moving to Murcia, Spain. My dad hopes he can transfer his medical license shortly, or at least find work in the meanwhile, my mom is gonna see if she can maybe find work although being a lawyer by trade she doesn't have that many transferable skills. They're kind of relying on whatever money I can send them right now, as we don't really have any family there, just acquaintances and some old family friends. They did manage to find a trustworthy "manager" to get their paperwork fast-tracked through the otherwise completely insurmountable pile of red tape they have to get through.

This is basically it, though. July 30 marks a breaking point for the country. Whether the opposition succeeds before then, or not, will dictate the future of an entire generation.

Ouch! All the best, dude.

Also, I hope things work out for your family. The immigrant experience means lots of hard work and sacrifice. I wish them all the best!

This thing is looming over the country like an axe over our necks. Jose Luis Zapatero, the former Spanish PM, arrived in Venezuela yesterday and met with Leopoldo Lopez and other opposition leaders. I think Maduro is holding on to this Constituent Assembly thing like a hostage taker holding on to the pin of a grenade. The hope is that he'll cancel it, but it's hard to see how he can do that while saving face. The opposition would have to give up a lot to get him to do that, I think, and I'm not sure that they're in a position to give up anything without losing the confidence of their base.

# ? Jul 25, 2017 15:09

fnox: May 19, 2013

Squalid posted:

Hey I hope you get better soon fnox, you haven't had any trouble getting antibiotics have you? Good luck to your family in all their endeavors

Well, I live in Sweden now (I moved about a year ago), and since they have socialism that actually works, I didn't have to pay a penny for my hospital stay, ambulance trip or surgery, and all I had to do was walk over to the pharmacy (as best as I could with my still hurting gut) who already knew what I needed based on my ID number, paid for my meds, took a cab home. It makes you wonder what exactly is preventing Venezuela from having a similar system.

# ? Jul 25, 2017 15:28

Dr Kool-AIDS: Mar 26, 2004

Edit: Oops, wrong thread.

# ? Jul 25, 2017 15:28

Kokoro Wish: Jul 23, 2007; Post? What post? Oh wow.
I had nothing to do with THAT.

THE VENEZUELAN DILEMMA: PROGRESSIVES AND THE �PLAGUE ON BOTH YOUR HOUSES� POSITION

quote:

WHAT ARE THE ARGUMENTS OF THE NI-NI POSITION THAT I AGREE WITH AND WHAT ARE THE ONES I DISAGREE WITH:

AGREE:

1. CORRUPTION IS AN EXTREMELY SERIOUIS PROBLEM IN VENEZUELA, which the government has not done nearly enough to combat, though some timid measures have been taken (eg. over the last 6 months in the oil industry).

2. THE GOVERNMENT HAS VIOLATED CERTAIN DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES � the decision to strip Henrique Capriles of the right to participate in elections on grounds of corruption; and the delay of the gubernatorial elections; but not the decision not to hold the recall in 2016 (since the opposition didn�t have their act together on that one).

3. THE NEGATIVE ROLE OF THE �STATE APPARATUS AND THE CHAVISTA ELITE� - Velasco begins his interview with these words. I agree that the state bureaucracy and Chavista elite have stifled internal Chavista democracy and in doing so have discouraged mobilization. Nevertheless, I also recognize that this bloc (the Chavista bureaucrats) buttresses the Chavista hold on power as it has a mobilization and organizational capacity that would be lost should Maduro unleash a �revolution within the revolution.� Hastily turning power over to the rank and file would have disastrous immediate consequences. Thus, for instance, Chavez�s decision to implement the Plan Guayana Socialista in which the workers chose the presidents (known as �worker presidents�) of state companies in the Guayana region was a failure because the labor movement in those firms, almost 100 percent Chavista, went at each other�s throats.
4. THE CHAVISTA MOVEMENT HAS LOST A LARGE NUMBER OF ITS ACTIVE SUPPORTERS. In addition to the factors named by the �ni-nis� (corruption, government bungling, etc.) there is the factor of �desgaste� (wearing down process over time) which is inevitable and doesn�t in itself reflect negatively on the Chavista leadership. Eighteen years is a long time.

DISAGREE:

1. THE MADURO GOVERNMENT IS AUTHORITARIAN OR HEADING IN AN AUTHORITARIAN DIRECTION, which at this point is my most important disagreement with the �ni-nis.� Those who make this statement never acknowledge the importance of context. They recognize, though in some cases they play down (not so in the case of Hetland�s Jacobin piece), the violent activity unleashed by the opposition, but don�t relate the state�s police actions to the challenges it is facing. Just to provide one example. A totally anti-government hostile communications media encourages the audacity and extremism of the opposition for two reasons. First the police and National Guard are held back from responding firmly and without hesitation and thus they lose their dissuasive capacity. And second, the protesters themselves feel empowered. Both factors play on each other. In the U.S. or any other country, the corporate media (and some of the alternative media) would be completely sympathetic to the actions of security forces, even their excesses, in a situation of urban paralysis and urban violence over such an extended period of time (it�s been three and a half months). Furthermore, to use the term �authoritarian� when the local media is so supportive of the opposition, is simply misleading. It is true that the national TV channels (specifically Televen, Venevision, and Globovsion) are less hostile to the government than in 2002-2003 but they (perhaps with the exception of Venevision) are still more pro than anti opposition. But almost all of the important written media both nationally and locally are vocally anti-government. And in the case of the international media, the bias has no limits.

Finally, there are valid criticisms of the Chavista-chosen methodology for the Constituent Assembly election to be held on July 30, but that doesn�t make Venezuela authoritarian. In 18 years of Chavista rule, there has never been plausible evidence of electoral fraud. Compare that with the dubious legitimacy of last month�s elections in the state of Mexico City, hardly unique for that nation.

The real elephant in the room is the gubernatorial election of December of this year, which the Maduro government is committed to holding. Those contests, to be held in just five months from now, will measure popular support. And they will put to the test the democratic commitment of both the government and the opposition. In my opinion the radical fringe of the opposition would prefer to reach power through force in order to crush the Chavista movement and impose neoliberal policies � �shock-treatment� style � rather than reach power through electoral means, in which case their options would be more limited.

2. THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT SINCERE ABOUT DIALGOUE, according to Velasco � there is no evidence one way of the other on this one.

3. THE CHAVISTA RANK AND FILE HAS LITTLE REASON TO ACTIVELY SUPPORT THE MADURO GOVERNMENT and for that reason two million of them abstained in December 2015. Although obviously disillusionment is widespread, there are many important reasons for progressives and popular sectors to support the Maduro government: nationalistic foreign policy, rejection of neoliberal type agreements with international financial institutions, social programs that involve community participation; zero-sum-game policies that favor the popular sectors (example: the Bus Rapid Transit � BRT � that in Barcelona-Puerto La Cruz reserves one of two lanes on the main drag connecting the two cities to accordion-type busses at the expense of automobile traffic); and finally Maduro (in spite of all of his shortcomings as an administrator and failure to take necessary bold decisions) has proven to be a fighter and to convince his base that he�s not going to go down without a struggle to the end. He has also attempted to mobilize his base; the failure to attempt to do so by Lula and Dilma Rousseff is a major reason why the impeachment against the latter went through.

4. VENEZUELA�S ECONOMIC DIFFICULTIES ARE NOT ABOUT LOW OIL PRICES BUT ABOUT GOVERNMENT INEPTNESS. In fact, there are three causes of the economic crisis and they all have approximately the same weight: low oil prices, the economic war (with Julio Borges�s public campaign against multinational investments in Venezuela, the existence of an economic war is clearer to see than in the past), and erroneous government policies. With regard to the latter (and here I probably diverge somewhat from Mark Weisbrot), I believe that decisions on economic policies were necessary and urgent, but that there were no easy and obvious choices and any one that was made would have come with a price, both politically and economically.

5. GOVERNMENT INTRANSIGENCE IS DUE TO THE FACT THAT THE CHAVISTA LEADERS DON�T WANT TO LOSE THEIR PRIVILEGES. This statement is misleading, even while there is undoubtedly an element of truth in it. But the statement assumes that Chavista leaders are all cynics and without any sense of idealism. Where is the scientific evidence to support this claim?

6. ATTORNEY GENERAL LUISA ORTEGA DIAZ REPRESENTS A NUETRAL POSITION WHICH THE MADURO GOVERNMENT IS UNWILLING TO TOLERATE. In fact, regardless of her motives, she has assumed an explicitly pro-opposition position. In such a critical situation in which the opposition openly proposes anarchy as a means to unseat Maduro, it makes sense that the Chavistas are attempting to remove her from office.
In short, I believe in the conclusive need to support the Venezuelan government in spite of the numerous criticisms that I have (some more profound than others). With that, I am not arguing for non-discussion of the errors. Everything to the contrary, the Venezuelan experience needs to be analyzed from a critical perspective, especially because of the plausibility of the criticisms formulated by critical progressives and the thorniness of many of the issues that have been raised. But there is a long tradition of purism on the left that runs counter to the position of �critical support� that I advocate.

# ? Jul 25, 2017 15:48

Hugoon Chavez: Nov 4, 2011; THUNDERDOME LOSER

fnox posted:

I happened to be hospitalised for the past week due to a complicated appendectomy, which is why I haven't been active either.

My family is making basically a break for it, they're leaving on short notice either this week or the next and moving to Murcia, Spain. My dad hopes he can transfer his medical license shortly, or at least find work in the meanwhile, my mom is gonna see if she can maybe find work although being a lawyer by trade she doesn't have that many transferable skills. They're kind of relying on whatever money I can send them right now, as we don't really have any family there, just acquaintances and some old family friends. They did manage to find a trustworthy "manager" to get their paperwork fast-tracked through the otherwise completely insurmountable pile of red tape they have to get through.

This is basically it, though. July 30 marks a breaking point for the country. Whether the opposition succeeds before then, or not, will dictate the future of an entire generation.

Yo, I have a bunch of doctor friends over here. If you need some questions answered, I can ask them.

AFAIK it's kind of a long process. Took them about a year to get their licence translated but I think that besides some papers missing from venezuela and all that means, it was a straightforward procedure. The specialization is another thing and my two closest doctor friends haven't got theirs yet (and in fact one of them can't transfer it and is moving to Chile soon to work his field there)

Job wise, it's not easy. Murcia is a lot cheaper than Madrid at least but they gonna pasar some roncha, I'm sad to say. But better anywhere than there so I wish them luck.

# ? Jul 25, 2017 15:49

fnox: May 19, 2013

Kokoro Wish posted:

THE VENEZUELAN DILEMMA: PROGRESSIVES AND THE �PLAGUE ON BOTH YOUR HOUSES� POSITION

Any particular reason why you quoted this moronic opinion piece in full? The guy is completely wrong, anybody saying anything remotely close to "economic war" should be dismissed as a loving idiot.

fnox fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Jul 25, 2017

# ? Jul 25, 2017 17:14

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

fnox posted:

Any particular reason why you quoted this moronic opinion piece in full? The guy is completely wrong, anybody saying anything remotely close to "economic war" should be dismissed as a loving idiot.

Steve Ellner is a relatively big name as far as "Venezuelanists" go. He's written at least a few articles on Venezuelan topics, and I think he's written pieces for a few books as well. But yeah, he's dead wrong about a bunch of things.

quote:

2. THE GOVERNMENT HAS VIOLATED CERTAIN DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES � the decision to strip Henrique Capriles of the right to participate in elections on grounds of corruption; and the delay of the gubernatorial elections; but not the decision not to hold the recall in 2016 (since the opposition didn�t have their act together on that one).

This section is wayyyyy too short. I'd put banning Capriles from running for office in the mid-bottom of my list of democratic principles that the government as violated (EDIT: dismissing the completely unjustified delay of the regional elections so nonchalantly is mind-numbing, and I could say a lot more about the opposition not having "their act together" on the recall referendum but I won't, but suffice it to say Ellner is painting with the widest brush ever made here).

quote:

1. THE MADURO GOVERNMENT IS AUTHORITARIAN OR HEADING IN AN AUTHORITARIAN DIRECTION, which at this point is my most important disagreement with the �ni-nis.� Those who make this statement never acknowledge the importance of context. They recognize, though in some cases they play down (not so in the case of Hetland�s Jacobin piece), the violent activity unleashed by the opposition, but don�t relate the state�s police actions to the challenges it is facing. Just to provide one example. A totally anti-government hostile communications media encourages the audacity and extremism of the opposition for two reasons. First the police and National Guard are held back from responding firmly and without hesitation and thus they lose their dissuasive capacity. And second, the protesters themselves feel empowered. Both factors play on each other. In the U.S. or any other country, the corporate media (and some of the alternative media) would be completely sympathetic to the actions of security forces, even their excesses, in a situation of urban paralysis and urban violence over such an extended period of time (it�s been three and a half months). Furthermore, to use the term �authoritarian� when the local media is so supportive of the opposition, is simply misleading. It is true that the national TV channels (specifically Televen, Venevision, and Globovsion) are less hostile to the government than in 2002-2003 but they (perhaps with the exception of Venevision) are still more pro than anti opposition. But almost all of the important written media both nationally and locally are vocally anti-government. And in the case of the international media, the bias has no limits. Finally, there are valid criticisms of the Chavista-chosen methodology for the Constituent Assembly election to be held on July 30, but that doesn�t make Venezuela authoritarian. In 18 years of Chavista rule, there has never been plausible evidence of electoral fraud. Compare that with the dubious legitimacy of last month�s elections in the state of Mexico City, hardly unique for that nation.

This is absurdly off-base. The argument that corporate media in the U.S. would be supportive of the violent repression of protests is, 1) neither here nor there, and 2) arguing that "if the U.S. does it, then it's good", which is an absurd argument to make. I don't see what the media's take on what the government does has to do with the government being authoritarian or not. Notice that Ellner doesn't address any of the authoritarian actions that the government has taken (hijacked the Supreme Court, neutralized the National Assembly, cancelled electoral processes, jailed dissidents, etc.). Instead he goes off on the media which, like I said, is neither here nor there. Saying that "the National Guard are held back from responding firmly" makes me think that Ellner hasn't seen the videos of National Guard soldiers shooting protesters. The protests become violent precisely at the moment that the authorities show up and start shooting people. That's true in Venezuela and it's true elsewhere. For evidence of this in Venezuela, look at all the marches that unfolded without violence and look at the ones that unfolded violently. The difference? The violent ones became violent because the National Guard showed up and started shooting people. Saying that "there has never been plausible evidence of electoral fraud" is waving a magic wand to dismiss all of the plausible evidence that there has been electoral fraud, and talking about Mexico is another non sequitur

quote:

2. THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT SINCERE ABOUT DIALGOUE, according to Velasco � there is no evidence one way of the other on this one.

The last time that the opposition and the government had a dialogue was in December. Back then, the opposition agreed to put an end to street demonstrations, and the regime promised to release all political prisoners. The opposition stopped the protests, and the government did not release the political prisoners (in fact, there are more today than there were in December). Agreeing to a dialogue, making promises and then breaking them at the first opportunity is proof to me that you're not sincere about dialogue.

quote:

3. THE CHAVISTA RANK AND FILE HAS LITTLE REASON TO ACTIVELY SUPPORT THE MADURO GOVERNMENT and for that reason two million of them abstained in December 2015. Although obviously disillusionment is widespread, there are many important reasons for progressives and popular sectors to support the Maduro government: nationalistic foreign policy, rejection of neoliberal type agreements with international financial institutions, social programs that involve community participation; zero-sum-game policies that favor the popular sectors (example: the Bus Rapid Transit � BRT � that in Barcelona-Puerto La Cruz reserves one of two lanes on the main drag connecting the two cities to accordion-type busses at the expense of automobile traffic); and finally Maduro (in spite of all of his shortcomings as an administrator and failure to take necessary bold decisions) has proven to be a fighter and to convince his base that he�s not going to go down without a struggle to the end. He has also attempted to mobilize his base; the failure to attempt to do so by Lula and Dilma Rousseff is a major reason why the impeachment against the latter went through.

I'm not sure what he's on about here.

quote:

4. VENEZUELA�S ECONOMIC DIFFICULTIES ARE NOT ABOUT LOW OIL PRICES BUT ABOUT GOVERNMENT INEPTNESS. In fact, there are three causes of the economic crisis and they all have approximately the same weight: low oil prices, the economic war (with Julio Borges�s public campaign against multinational investments in Venezuela, the existence of an economic war is clearer to see than in the past), and erroneous government policies. With regard to the latter (and here I probably diverge somewhat from Mark Weisbrot), I believe that decisions on economic policies were necessary and urgent, but that there were no easy and obvious choices and any one that was made would have come with a price, both politically and economically.

Weighing those three factors equally is just wrong. Chavismo has been in power for 17 years, and in those 17 years they did nothing but destroy the Venezuelan economy by squandering (and stealing) oil wealth instead of investing it, diversifying the economy, etc. And now, when the economy finally collapses, Ellner says, "Well yeah, but the other guys who haven't been anywhere near the levers for a generation are equally to blame for this"?

quote:

6. ATTORNEY GENERAL LUISA ORTEGA DIAZ REPRESENTS A NUETRAL POSITION WHICH THE MADURO GOVERNMENT IS UNWILLING TO TOLERATE. In fact, regardless of her motives, she has assumed an explicitly pro-opposition position. In such a critical situation in which the opposition openly proposes anarchy as a means to unseat Maduro, it makes sense that the Chavistas are attempting to remove her from office.

If we want to call "adhering to the rule of law" the "pro-opposition position", then I am all for public officials taking a pro-opposition position. I don't know why Ellner thinks that protests, the right to which are enshrined in the constitution, amount to "anarchy".

Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Jul 25, 2017

# ? Jul 25, 2017 17:40

Kokoro Wish: Jul 23, 2007; Post? What post? Oh wow.
I had nothing to do with THAT.

fnox posted:

Any particular reason why you quoted this moronic opinion piece in full? The guy is completely wrong, anybody saying anything remotely close to "economic war" should be dismissed as a loving idiot.

To spark responses like Chuck's. I like seeing differing views aired and cogent responses to them put forward.

I even valued reading the comments of the "Tankie" that posted in here before, and I do share his concerns about US influence in the area, especially when you read things from say, the Washington Post (which due to certain payments made by certain agencies, looks to front CIA propaganda), mirroring the same things I hear from the opposition, with the same kind of loaded language.

I'm a naturally suspicious person, especially when it comes to narratives being mirrored by imperialist powers with historical reputations for loving with the region.

# ? Jul 25, 2017 17:54

Feinne: Oct 9, 2007; When you fall, get right back up again.

Kokoro Wish posted:

To spark responses like Chuck's. I like seeing differing views aired and cogent responses to them put forward.

I even valued reading the comments of the "Tankie" that posted in here before, and I do share his concerns about US influence in the area, especially when you read things from say, the Washington Post (which due to certain payments made by certain agencies, looks to front CIA propaganda), mirroring the same things I hear from the opposition, with the same kind of loaded language.

I'm a naturally suspicious person, especially when it comes to narratives being mirrored by imperialist powers with historical reputations for loving with the region.

I think the thing to keep in mind is that while of course the CIA is always going to support whatever outcome they consider most favorable to the US, sometimes this outcome is coincidentally also better for the people on the ground.

# ? Jul 25, 2017 18:27

Labradoodle: Nov 24, 2011; Crax daubentoni

Kokoro Wish posted:

To spark responses like Chuck's. I like seeing differing views aired and cogent responses to them put forward.

I even valued reading the comments of the "Tankie" that posted in here before, and I do share his concerns about US influence in the area, especially when you read things from say, the Washington Post (which due to certain payments made by certain agencies, looks to front CIA propaganda), mirroring the same things I hear from the opposition, with the same kind of loaded language.

I'm a naturally suspicious person, especially when it comes to narratives being mirrored by imperialist powers with historical reputations for loving with the region.

Is it possible the US is exerting its influence behind the scenes to force a change in government? Sure. I don't have any evidence that says otherwise, much like there's no evidence for it. My main problem with the people that wield this argument as a reason to dismiss the problems in Venezuela is they tend to dismiss the problems in Venezuela. If you accept the fact that Venezuela is a clusterfuck with the highest inflation in the world, little food, almost no medicine, a murder rate of approximately 90 per 100,000 citizens, over 80% of the population living in dire poverty, precarious access to running water and electricity, and an authoritarian government � which you should, because those facts are plain as day � then it's not a leap of logic to assume the majority of its citizens want to oust the government.

Whether the US also wants to get these dumbasses out (which I'm sure they do) isn't really the point. So understandably, Venezuelans like me get pissed off at guys like that late troll that just try to reduce everything to "imperialism this and imperialism that".

# ? Jul 25, 2017 18:31

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

fnox posted:

I happened to be hospitalised for the past week due to a complicated appendectomy, which is why I haven't been active either.

It's pretty hosed that if this had happened to you last year, before leaving Venezuela, you would probably be dead now.

Also can anyone who is not Chuck Boone who posts a huge wall of text without any commentary just be automatically probated in this thread? There is like a 100% probability that any posted wall of text is going to be garbage. I didn't even have to read it, and did not know the poster's name, and knew it was going to be terrible. Way to go Kokoro Wish, you're just as terrible of a poster as Borneo Jimmy.

Saladman fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Jul 25, 2017

# ? Jul 25, 2017 21:40

DAD LOST MY IPOD: Feb 3, 2012; Fats Dominar is on the case

so I keep seeing dumb tankies talking about the opposition burning people alive. what's the origin of that gruesome meme?

# ? Jul 25, 2017 21:46

fnox: May 19, 2013

Kokoro Wish posted:

To spark responses like Chuck's. I like seeing differing views aired and cogent responses to them put forward.

I even valued reading the comments of the "Tankie" that posted in here before, and I do share his concerns about US influence in the area, especially when you read things from say, the Washington Post (which due to certain payments made by certain agencies, looks to front CIA propaganda), mirroring the same things I hear from the opposition, with the same kind of loaded language.

I'm a naturally suspicious person, especially when it comes to narratives being mirrored by imperialist powers with historical reputations for loving with the region.

I'll be blunt, there was a time when any sort of conversation about "imperialism" was relevant and that was 15 years ago with the April 11th coup. Since then, the situation on the ground in Venezuela has eroded so thoroughly that any allusion to CIA intervention comes out as mockery for the plight of the Venezuelan people. I'm sorry but anyone who is unable to understand that the priority is to get Maduro and his crooks out so that people can stop dying in droves to crime, hunger and disease, is a moron. A moron who has likely never had to struggle for a single day of his or her life, and likely takes all of the advantages of living in either the Empire, or any of its allied nations. You have to know very little about the current happenings in the country to think it's even a remotely relevant topic.

But fine, you want to discuss imperialism, lets talk imperialism. I'll ask this, what exactly is the United States supposed to do about this situation? Do you sit idly as yet again another democracy in Latin America fails and falls into the hand of an insanely corrupt elite with ties to drug trade and terrorism? Note, absolutely nobody is asking for a boots on the ground approach, not even the US. Also note, the US is a very important strategic partner even to Maduro's Venezuela, being the primary buyer for Venezuelan oil. If they wanted to truly avoid exerting any influence, then the logical thing would be to avoid buying Venezuelan oil, right? Except that would immediately bankrupt the Venezuelan economy. Bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, isn't it?

As for media, the government has very tight control over the internet (The state owned internet provider serves 95% of all users), it has implemented DNS blocks on sites such as CNN, opposition news sites and even Youtube at one point. Through fines, they bullied any sort of television or radio channels that wouldn't support them out of the air. Whichever outlet didn't buckle under the threat of fines, like Globovision, eventually got bought out and forced to follow editorial lines that at the very least, never criticised the government. Any newspaper that didn't support the government stopped being allowed to purchase paper to even print on. Reporters get regularly robbed and beaten, sometimes even imprisoned. Any sort of coverage you'll get from official Venezuelan sources will be propagandised and edited to the point of uselessness, and it honestly isn't so hard to see how different the country looks compared to first hand accounts.

Saladman posted:

It's pretty hosed that if this had happened to you last year, before leaving Venezuela, you would probably be dead now.

I'd absolutely be dead, or best case scenario, under crippling debt. It would have been horribly expensive just to get into the OR, and I'd had to smuggle in the dozen of antibiotics they put into my veins, if I even found them.

fnox fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Jul 25, 2017

# ? Jul 25, 2017 21:49

ThisIsWhyTrumpWon: Jun 22, 2017; by Smythe

It's funny that the Venezuelans who are literally starving in the streets are less desperate and negative about things than the posters over in the Trump thread.

As for CIA intervention and US Imperialism. Even taken at face value of these arguments (which are false); Why would anyone want to not support Imperialism versus Chavismo when the later has created a inhabitable country under conditions of a oil crunch every single other country is suffering?

Pretty much everyone in Colombia and Peru are all living in much better situations than the vast majority of Venezuelans. And those are 2 of the most right wing countries in the continent.

Even if there was a economic war - why would the Venezuelan people want to continue to suffer under it? For the sake of some idiotic political ideology?

Peoples day to day lives matter more to themselves than stupid political ideologies. The tankie scumbags offering weak platitudes to Venezuelan population have NOTHING to offer the citizens of the country and would not support the Venezuelan government if they were in the same situation.

# ? Jul 25, 2017 23:14

Feinne: Oct 9, 2007; When you fall, get right back up again.

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

so I keep seeing dumb tankies talking about the opposition burning people alive. what's the origin of that gruesome meme?

I think a national guard soldier got hit with a molotov a couple months back, so yeah someone did get burned alive a bit.

# ? Jul 26, 2017 00:03

Kokoro Wish: Jul 23, 2007; Post? What post? Oh wow.
I had nothing to do with THAT.

It's not even just a tankie thing. You see papers all over the world with smatterings of reports about Opposition lynchings and burnings. Even from right wing papers like the Daily Mail you get the occasional story like that between stuff that's very anti-Maduro.

I do have a few questions to sate my own curiosity from those in the country. Is the Opposition as right wing as purported in certain areas. And I don't want equivocations about the current Government being worse, there's lenty of that in the thread already. I just want to know how potentially right-leaning these opposition groups are.

Has there been a spate of lynchings and burning of thieves or criminals? Are most of the Criminals black or of colour? Are most of the lynchers "white"?

Is there a seeming lack of certain essential good on the shelves of stores (flour, eggs, milk, etc.) whilst they remain stocked with other processed goods? Have these goods been horded away from stores by suppliers in order to push up prices, as happens in alot of conflict zones?

I ask these because this is stuff you see when you read around about the situation in Venezuela from an outsider's perspective. There's alot of talking points about the Chavistas being bad and Maduro being a dictator, etc. But then there's also this kind of thing about the opposition that raises eye-brows. What would a government under such opposition look like? There are those that would compare the situation as it is to Syria's endgame of Assad being bad, but the opposition being terrible also.

Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Jul 26, 2017

# ? Jul 26, 2017 01:53

Polidoro: Jan 5, 2011; Huevo se dice argidia. Argidia!

Kokoro Wish posted:

It's not even just a tankie thing. You see papers all over the world with smatterings of reports about Opposition lynchings and burnings. Even from right wing papers like the Daily Mail you get the occasional story like that between stuff that's very anti-Maduro.

I do have a few questions to sate my own curiosity from those in the country. Is the Opposition as right wing as purported in certain areas. And I don't want equivocations about the current Government being worse, there's lenty of that in the thread already. I just want to know how potentially right-leaning these opposition groups are.

Has there been a spate of lynchings and burning of thieves or criminals? Are most of the Criminals black or of colour? Are most of the lynchers "white"?

Is there a seeming lack of certain essential good on the shelves of stores (flour, eggs, milk, etc.) whilst they remain stocked with other processed goods? Have these goods been horded away from stores by suppliers in order to push up prices, as happens in alot of conflict zones?

I ask these because this is stuff you see when you read around about the situation in Venezuela from an outsider's perspective. There's alot of talking points about the Chavistas being bad and Maduro being a dictator, etc. But then there's also this kind of thing about the opposition that raises eye-brows. What would a government under such opposition look like? There are those that would compare the situation as it is to Syria's endgame of Assad being bad, but the opposition being terrible also.

Nobody is white you loving moron. What's with you idiots and making everything about race?

# ? Jul 26, 2017 02:13

Kokoro Wish: Jul 23, 2007; Post? What post? Oh wow.
I had nothing to do with THAT.

Polidoro posted:

Nobody is white you loving moron. What's with you idiots and making everything about race?

I only ask the question because it's something I'm seem proposed elsewhere and would like clarification on. I recognized the lens the question is asked through, which is why I put "white" in quotations. I guess it would have been more accurate to say "Is there any actual racial bias to these killings, if killings there are".

Like I said, this is just for my own interest in clarifying things I've read about. It's a rare opportunity to ask people actually in the country these questions and get their views.

And that's only one question out of the slew.

Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Jul 26, 2017

# ? Jul 26, 2017 02:30

DAD LOST MY IPOD: Feb 3, 2012; Fats Dominar is on the case

I have not seen any actual reports of anyone burned alive or dead, it's a friend of a friend saw someone who saw someone type thing

# ? Jul 26, 2017 02:57

Labradoodle: Nov 24, 2011; Crax daubentoni

Kokoro Wish posted:

I do have a few questions to sate my own curiosity from those in the country. Is the Opposition as right wing as purported in certain areas. And I don't want equivocations about the current Government being worse, there's lenty of that in the thread already. I just want to know how potentially right-leaning these opposition groups are.

The opposition is very left-leaning in its majority. I'm not sure how it is that it came to be associated with the right, besides the fact that Chavistas commonly refer to it as such, but I hope someone else can shine a light on the topic. As far as their track record goes, the two major parties in the country, Primero Justicia and Voluntad Popular are very left of center. The latter is even a part of the Socialist International group.

Kokoro Wish posted:

Is there a seeming lack of certain essential good on the shelves of stores (flour, eggs, milk, etc.) whilst they remain stocked with other processed goods? Have these goods been hoarded away from stores by suppliers in order to push up prices, as happens in a lot of conflict zones?

Yes, in most cases you can still find a lot of goods, but milk and flour, for example, are very hard to pin down. The government has made a show of saying the opposition is hoarding these products, but those statements don't hold up. The reason, in this case, is that almost every single one of the products that are missing from the shelves started disappearing after the government decided to intervene in those industries with price controls and expropriations. It makes perfect sense that if you force industries to produce and sell at a loss, they'll go bankrupt and you'll start facing shortages. Chavismo tries to spin this as those companies sabotaging the revolution, but it's a pretty straightforward case of cause and effect.

To put it simply, you have two sides you can believe in this situation. The government regularly engages in irrational price controls and expropriation of factories and business, which, of course, affects inventory levels across the country. On the other hand, there's the possibility the opposition is coordinating with store owners all across the country to engineer shortages of specific goods to destabilize the government. Is the latter possible? Yes, but it's also very far-fetched and it completely ignores the effect of the government's own economic policies.

Labradoodle fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Jul 26, 2017

# ? Jul 26, 2017 03:21

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

so I keep seeing dumb tankies talking about the opposition burning people alive. what's the origin of that gruesome meme?

DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

I have not seen any actual reports of anyone burned alive or dead, it's a friend of a friend saw someone who saw someone type thing

For what it's worth, I haven't heard of anyone getting burned alive by the opposition, and I've been keeping a record of people killed in the protests. You can also check out this website, which has details on every one of the protest fatalities. The website counts 102 dead, but my own count is 100. I haven't looked through the website carefully enough, but I'm confident that you won't find anyone burned alive in there.

Imagine if the opposition did burn someone alive, though. Or, better yet, take the case of Amelina Carrillo, who was killed during a pro-government demonstration on April 23 after someone dropped a frozen bottle of water on her head. Or National Guard Lt. Danny Jose Subero, who was lynched by a crowd of mourners at a funeral for a protester killed days earlier on May 27 in Cabudare, Lara state. Both are tragic examples of the kind of violence that Venezuelan has been seeing over the past several months.

My question is, what's the point of running away with the headline "Opposition killed someone by burning/lynching/shooting/etc.!"? Surely there's the fact that these are noteworthy and tragic events that tend to be reported in multiple media outlets. I won't put words in your friend's mouth or intentions behind them, but when I see websites peddling those headlines, I get the sense that the purpose is to disparage the opposition by suggesting that they're a mob of barbarians who go around lynching people who disagree with them.

Sensationalizing who killed whom and how is not a good argument to take up for at least two reasons:

First, for every person killed by an opposition supporter since April 1, I can name you three killed by the government (my own count: 50 killed by government, 15 by opposition, 13 of neutral causes [electrocution while looting, etc.] and 22 killed by unknown assailants [killed in crossfire, etc.]). I'm not suggesting that kill counts mean anything: what I am suggesting is that if you want to tell me that opposition supporters are bad for killing people, well, you're going to lose that argument three times over. Again, I do not think that comparing kill counts is a fruitful exercise, but if you're going to make that argument you're going to lose.

Second, there's no denying that all of these deaths are horrific and tragic. It is precisely because they are so horrific and tragic that they capture our attention. People don't usually get shot to death, or lynched, and when they do it's a shocking thing. What's not so shocking, what doesn't tend to grab headlines, is the background "base level" violence that the regime perpetuates through its existence. For example, three patients died in the Vargas Hospital two days ago because the hospital ran out of oxygen. The fact that the hospital didn't have oxygen is traceable directly to the corruption, the mismanagement, and the ineptitude of the PSUV and the Maduro regime. The number of people who died of malaria in Venezuela rose 76% in 2016; the infant morality rate rose 30% in 2016, and maternal deaths rose 66%. We're talking about thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people, who are dead today because of the corruption, mismanagement and ineptitude of the PSUV. I've just given you a couple of examples: we haven't talked about the diphtheria deaths, the deaths from malnutrition, etc.

Kokoro Wish posted:

Is the Opposition as right wing as purported in certain areas. And I don't want equivocations about the current Government being worse, there's lenty of that in the thread already. I just want to know how potentially right-leaning these opposition groups are.

Has there been a spate of lynchings and burning of thieves or criminals? Are most of the Criminals black or of colour? Are most of the lynchers "white"?

1. Labradoodle covered this really well. I will say that "the opposition" means "anyone who isn't the PSUV", so you're talking about millions of people and dozens and dozens of political groups. Like Labradoodle said, a few political parties in the official opposition bloc (the MUD) are in the Socialist International, and quite a few more are centrist/centre-left. You'll often see the opposition referred to as "the right-wing opposition" or "the radical right wing opposition" as a way to disparage the entire movement.

2. I don't have official statistics to back this up, but I can look for them tomorrow and let the thread know because I recall lynchings being in the news a lot earlier this year before the protests. This is because there appeared to have been an increase in lynchings at the time, but again, I'm not sure. As for the racial composition of people convicted of crimes/people who lynch others, I don't know that those statistics are kept.

I will say, though, that having been around this thread a while now, it's very common for people to enter the conversation on Venezuela with their "North American/Western European Racial Goggles" on. Race relations in Venezuela are not the same as they are in North America and Europe. According to the 2011 census, a majority of Venezuelans (51.6%) self-identified as "Moreno" (this literally means "brown", or a mix of black and white), while 43.6% self-identified as white. Venezuela is not the Southern United States and it's not the suburbs of Paris. Race relations there are not like they are where you live (if you're posting from North American or Europe!).

# ? Jul 26, 2017 03:54

Kokoro Wish: Jul 23, 2007; Post? What post? Oh wow.
I had nothing to do with THAT.

Oh, one more addendum I just remembered (thought I missed out something in my questions), does the Mesa de la Unidad Democr�tica (MUD) still exist? Do they have anything to do with the "Opposition" against the Maduro government and if so, what are their principles at the moment. From what I can glean they seem to be very Centrist (stretching from Center-Right on the political spectrum to Center-left) and hold some, what could be called "Neo-Liberal" policies towards the dispersion of Venezuela's resources.

Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Jul 26, 2017

# ? Jul 26, 2017 04:18

gobbagool: Feb 5, 2016; by R. Guyovich; Doctor Rope

Kokoro Wish posted:

Oh, one more addendum I just remembered (thought I missed out something in my questions), does the Mesa de la Unidad Democr�tica (MUD) still exist? Do they have anything to do with the "Opposition" against the Maduro government and if so, what are their principles at the moment. From what I can glean they seem to be very Centrist (stretching from Center-Right on the political spectrum to Center-left) and hold some, what could be called "Neo-Liberal" policies towards the dispersion of Venezuela's resources.

Read the loving thread tankie

# ? Jul 26, 2017 10:45

Kokoro Wish: Jul 23, 2007; Post? What post? Oh wow.
I had nothing to do with THAT.

Not a tankie, thankee. I don't like Communism/Stalinism/Leninism as a historical movement. Whilst I am Socialist, I don't believe that violent revolution to implement it is the way to go. I'm only really slight left of the Democratic Socialism of the Scandinavian countries. So Social Democracy. So I am a fan of Worker Co-operatives.

I ask that because the OP was made in 2015. Two years later I was wondering if they were still a force and if their alignments had sharpened or changed.

Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Jul 26, 2017

# ? Jul 26, 2017 11:16

Ghost of Mussolini: Jun 26, 2011

Kokoro Wish posted:

Not a tankie, thankee. I don't like Communism/Stalinism/Leninism as a historical movement. Whilst I am Socialist, I don't believe that violent revolution to implement it is the way to go. I'm only really slight left of the Democratic Socialism of the Scandinavian countries. So Social Democracy. So I am a fan of Worker Co-operatives.

I ask that because the OP was made in 2015. Two years later I was wondering if they were still a force and if their alignments had sharpened or changed.

Tankie or not the point was that your questions were largely answerable even by reading the last few pages, not even all the way from the OP to here.

# ? Jul 26, 2017 11:48

Kokoro Wish: Jul 23, 2007; Post? What post? Oh wow.
I had nothing to do with THAT.

If that were actually true I wouldn't be asking the questions. Plus as you can see all the questions are quite specific and the last few pages don't cover any of them directly or indirectly in the way I would find truely informative. I have actually read the last few pages.

That said, thank you for the answers from those who have so far. Even providing links with more reading was kind of you.

# ? Jul 26, 2017 12:17

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

The general strike has begun, and so far it seems to be developing as planned. Streets that are normally gridlocked with traffic are empty, and lots of businesses are closed.

The video below is from the Baralt avenue in Caracas about 20 minutes ago:

https://twitter.com/EfectoCocuyo/status/890172761414529024

Elice street in Chacao, Caracas:

https://twitter.com/ElNacionalWeb/status/890175237018484736

This is the Cagua-Maracay highway at 7:00 AM:

https://twitter.com/LomasDelEsteVal/status/890169744233558016

Libertador Avenue in Barquisimeto, Lara state:

https://twitter.com/tativzla21/status/890174555997818880

Leopoldo Lopez also released a short video last night calling on Venezuelans to continue to mount pressure on the regime from the streets.

Kokoro Wish posted:

Oh, one more addendum I just remembered (thought I missed out something in my questions), does the Mesa de la Unidad Democr�tica (MUD) still exist? Do they have anything to do with the "Opposition" against the Maduro government and if so, what are their principles at the moment.

Yes, the Mesa de la Unidad Democratica still exists. It is the official opposition party bloc. It's often referred to in the media as "la MUD", "la Unidad", or simply "la oposicion". I think there's been a bit of a PR effort to not refer to the MUD just as "the opposition" because the bloc actually represents the majority of Venezuelans, and calling it the opposition doesn't do that fact justice.

The MUD's main principles right now are the immediate holding of general elections, the release of all political prisoners, the renovation of all public institutions through new appointments, and the creation of a humanitarian corridor to allow food, medicine and other basic necessities to flow into the country.

# ? Jul 26, 2017 12:43

DOCTOR ZIMBARDO: May 8, 2006

[CIA Director Mike] POMPEO:
So I appreciate the question. At any time you have a country as large and with the economic capacity of a country like Venezuela, America has a deep interest in making sure that it is stable, as democratic as possible. And so, we're working hard to do that, I am always careful when we talk about South and Central America and the CIA, there's a lot of stories. (Laughter)
MR. POMPEO: So I want to be careful with what I say but suffice to say, we are very hopeful that there can be a transition in Venezuela and we the CIA is doing its best to understand the dynamic there, so that we can communicate to our State Department and to others. The Colombians, I was just down in Mexico City and in Bogota a week before last talking about this very issue trying to help them understand the things they might do so that they can get a better outcome for their part of the world and our part of the world.

nice to see langley shares the thread's sense of humor about their own involvement (laughter)

# ? Jul 26, 2017 15:09

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

For the Xth time: just because the United States is interested in seeing the Maduro dictatorship fall does not mean that the Maduro dictatorship should not fall, or that it is not a dictatorship. Yes, the U.S. and the CIA are bad, but my political opinions are influenced by slightly more than the answer to the question "what's the U.S.' stance on this?" because I am not in high school anymore. I suspect you also aren't in high school, so I challenge you to push yourself a little harder and grapple with the complexities of the world in a less binary way.

I mean, should I be pro-ISIS because the U.S. is against ISIS? Or am I allowed to form my own opinion on ISIS independent of what the U.S. thinks?

And here's a link to an article with Pompeo's comments.

Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Jul 26, 2017

# ? Jul 26, 2017 15:20

Hugoon Chavez: Nov 4, 2011; THUNDERDOME LOSER

Chuck Boone posted:

For the Xth time: just because the United States is interested in seeing the Maduro dictatorship fall does not mean that the Maduro dictatorship should not fall, or that it is not a dictatorship. Yes, the U.S. and the CIA are bad, but my political opinions are influenced by slightly more than the answer to the question "what's the U.S.' stance on this?" because I am not in high school anymore. I suspect you also aren't in high school, so I challenge you to push yourself a little harder and grapple with the complexities of the world in a less binary way.

I mean, should I be pro-ISIS because the U.S. is against ISIS? Or am I allowed to form my own opinion on ISIS independent of what the U.S. thinks?

And here's a link to an article with Pompeo's comments.

Knowing how these discussions go, the usual response to that would be ignoring your point all together and go on a rant about how the US created ISIS

# ? Jul 26, 2017 16:44

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

The U.S. is probably going to announce sanctions against 13 more high-ranking Venezuelan officials this afternoon. There are some really good names on the list that is circulating through the media. The list is allegedly made up of the following individuals:

Tibisay Lucena, head of the�Consejo Nacional Electoral
Carlos Erick Malpica Flores, National Treasurer
Jesus Suarez Chourio, Major General of the National Bolivarian Armed Forces and Commander of the Central Defense Region
Carlos Alfredo Perez Ampueda, head of the�Servicio Bolivariano de Inteligencia Nacional�(SEBIN), the regime's political police
Maria Iris Varela, former Minister of Penitentiaries
Tarek William Saab, People's Defender
Simon Alejandro Zerpa Delgado, Vice-President of Finance at PDVSA
Rocco Albisini, head of CENCOEX, the regime's currency exchange institution
Elias Jaua, Minister of Education
Nestor Reverol, Minister of the Interior, Justice and Peace
Sergio Rivero Marcano, Commander General of the national Guard
Franklin Garcia Duque, Head of the National Bolivarian Police
Alejandro Fleming, (not sure what his role is in the regime)

There are a lot of really big names on that list, like Tarek William Saab, Tibisay Lucena, Nestor Reverol and Elias Jaua. If the sanctions look like the other three or so rounds slapped on regime officials, these people will have their U.S. visas cancelled and all of their assets in that country frozen.

The regime is probably going to try to spin this as an attack on the Venezuelan people and the country's sovereignty, but it's important that we understand that these sanctions only target these named, high-ranking regime officials who are actively involved in human rights violations.

Hugoon Chavez posted:

Knowing how these discussions go, the usual response to that would be ignoring your point all together and go on a rant about how the US created ISIS

I think you're right :eng99:

# ? Jul 26, 2017 17:26

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:

[CIA Director Mike] POMPEO:
So I appreciate the question. At any time you have a country as large and with the economic capacity of a country like Venezuela, America has a deep interest in making sure that it is stable, as democratic as possible. And so, we're working hard to do that, I am always careful when we talk about South and Central America and the CIA, there's a lot of stories. (Laughter)
MR. POMPEO: So I want to be careful with what I say but suffice to say, we are very hopeful that there can be a transition in Venezuela and we the CIA is doing its best to understand the dynamic there, so that we can communicate to our State Department and to others. The Colombians, I was just down in Mexico City and in Bogota a week before last talking about this very issue trying to help them understand the things they might do so that they can get a better outcome for their part of the world and our part of the world.

Oh no, how nefarious

Edit: what's special about Saab? Name sounds familiar but his position doesn't sound exciting. Was he involved in loving over Lorenzo?

# ? Jul 26, 2017 17:59

Chuck Boone: Feb 12, 2009; El Turpial

GreyjoyBastard posted:

Oh no, how nefarious

Edit: what's special about Saab? Name sounds familiar but his position doesn't sound exciting. Was he involved in loving over Lorenzo?

Saab is the People's Defender. His job is to help safeguard the human rights of all Venezuelans and, well... let's just say he hasn't really been doing his job.

EDIT: It's official. The list is now up on the U.S. Department of the Treasure website.

Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Jul 26, 2017

# ? Jul 26, 2017 18:07

Saladman: Jan 12, 2010

DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:

[CIA Director Mike] POMPEO:
So I appreciate the question. At any time you have a country as large and with the economic capacity of a country like Venezuela, America has a deep interest in making sure that it is stable, as democratic as possible. And so, we're working hard to do that, I am always careful when we talk about South and Central America and the CIA, there's a lot of stories. (Laughter)
MR. POMPEO: So I want to be careful with what I say but suffice to say, we are very hopeful that there can be a transition in Venezuela and we the CIA is doing its best to understand the dynamic there, so that we can communicate to our State Department and to others. The Colombians, I was just down in Mexico City and in Bogota a week before last talking about this very issue trying to help them understand the things they might do so that they can get a better outcome for their part of the world and our part of the world.

nice to see langley shares the thread's sense of humor about their own involvement (laughter)

I can't tell if you're one of those people who's posting this as proof that the CIA is involved in the economic war on Venezuela or not. If you are, what exactly is this proof of, that the CIA knows Venezuela exists and at least one guy in their Latin America department who keeps an eye on what's going on over there?

If you substitute "CIA Director" with "ambassador" and "CIA" with "state department", then ... this would read exactly like a normal above-board and totally acceptable thing you'd expect to see between any two countries in the world. This isn't some Wikileaks bombshell slip-up.

# ? Jul 26, 2017 21:28

Peel: Dec 3, 2007

he does explicitly say they are 'working hard' to make sure it is 'stable and democratic', which is not a combination of concepts I particularly like in the mouth of the CIA

but it could mean anything, from 'we've masterminded the whole thing' to 'we're trying to get leverage on one guy in a minor party that we have confused with a more important party of a similar name because our information is a week out of date and the source is scamming us'

# ? Jul 26, 2017 22:04

DoctorStrangelove: Jun 7, 2012; IT WOULD NOT BE DIFFICULT MEIN FUHRER!

But did the CIA use Star Wars: Dark Forces to kill Chavez?

# ? Jul 26, 2017 22:15

wdarkk: Oct 26, 2007; Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten

Peel posted:

he does explicitly say they are 'working hard' to make sure it is 'stable and democratic', which is not a combination of concepts I particularly like in the mouth of the CIA

but it could mean anything, from 'we've masterminded the whole thing' to 'we're trying to get leverage on one guy in a minor party that we have confused with a more important party of a similar name because our information is a week out of date and the source is scamming us'

It probably means "The guy at the Venezuela desk is 'infiltrating' South American gaming clans half the time and compiling reports from social media the other half."

# ? Jul 26, 2017 22:17

beer_war: Mar 10, 2005

Maduro is a deep cover operative. Like, deeeeeep cover.

# ? Jul 26, 2017 23:48

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 18, 2024 10:52

Feinne: Oct 9, 2007; When you fall, get right back up again.

Peel posted:

he does explicitly say they are 'working hard' to make sure it is 'stable and democratic', which is not a combination of concepts I particularly like in the mouth of the CIA

but it could mean anything, from 'we've masterminded the whole thing' to 'we're trying to get leverage on one guy in a minor party that we have confused with a more important party of a similar name because our information is a week out of date and the source is scamming us'

I mean the second part is laughable as gently caress and they don't give a poo poo about the rights of Venezuelans to choose their government but they definitely do give a gently caress that the country's stable given we buy a bunch of oil from Venezuela. CIA would be perfectly comfortable propping up Maduro if he wasn't loving up so badly.

The interesting question is what CIA is suggesting Colombia do.

# ? Jul 27, 2017 00:11

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

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