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A Winner is Jew posted:
A Winner is Jew posted:I mean I knew you were a dumb rear end, but I didn't think you weren't also an intellectually dishonest dumb rear end until right now. Dexo posted:Any ideology can be terrible in any specific situation.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:18
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lol at people crying in here over Khaddafi. gently caress that piece of poo poo, he deserved worse. and maybe it's just the relative youth of the posters here - but the average politically clued-in person in 2002 did not buy the WMD poo poo at all. Obviously the usual heads like Chomsky, Pilger, Fisk, Monbiot, were coming out hard against it at the time, but it was way more mainstream than that. HRC and WJC were under absolutely no illusions, and they respected the opinion of people like Dick Clarke who viewed Iraq as a catastrophe in the making and a distraction from the priority of Afghanistan http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ica-119053.html ahhh remember good old Hans Blix WeAreTheRomans fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Oct 31, 2016 |
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Oct 31, 2016 23:18
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flashman posted:Yeah, United States foreign policy is extremely concerned about civilian life in the middle east... What, do you think we're trying to kill more but are just about 200 times worse at it then Russia and Syria?
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Oct 31, 2016 23:19
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Really now. That's odd, isn't it?
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Oct 31, 2016 23:19
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Majorian posted:That may be the intention, but if it causes Russia to escalate things into a proxy war, welp - you probably end up with more dead brown people than you had before. Turkey shot down a Russian fighter and Russia didn't do poo poo.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:19
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FuzzySlippers posted:A no fly zone is not an air combat top gun zone where we start dog fighting Russia immediately. We aren't going to institute it without Russian cooperation but pushing them to negotiate on it is part of drawing down the conflict. Well, but the question is, what happens when (and it's when, not if) Russia refuses to cooperate? Fojar38 posted:Turkey shot down a Russian fighter and Russia didn't do poo poo. They actually threw quite the poo poo-fit, and it was a pretty massive diplomatic incident that needed weeks of cleanup. And that was just Turkey, a country that Kremlin-backed propaganda hasn't convinced the Russian public poses an existential threat to them, unlike the U.S. If the U.S. were to shoot down a Russian jet, there would at the very least be a significantly greater presence of Russian troops loving poo poo up in Syria. Majorian fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Oct 31, 2016 |
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Oct 31, 2016 23:20
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I've never read anything from Slate.com before, are they a good source for this type of reporting?
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Oct 31, 2016 23:20
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Fojar38 posted:Plucky lil Muammar Ghaddafi How long until Republicans concern troll Osama into the 'you know who wasn't such a bad guy?' category
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Oct 31, 2016 23:20
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Fojar38 posted:Turkey shot down a Russian fighter and Russia didn't do poo poo. I'd prefer not risking a significant conflict over "they didn't do it this one time". Not to mention Putin's aggressive nationalism has been on the rise lately since oil prices collapsed. I don't think Putin's a total idiot and would necessarily do something stupid but why take the risk? Majorian posted:Well, but the question is, what happens when (and it's when, not if) Russia refuses to cooperate? bingo.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:21
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WeAreTheRomans posted:lol at people crying in here over Khaddafi. gently caress that piece of poo poo, he deserved worse.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:21
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sit on my Facebook posted:It was more like 60% right at the inception, with somewhere around 3/4s of Americans supporting giving the regime more time to comply with UN weapons inspectors, ranging from a few more weeks to a few more months. Support dropped to around ~50% pretty shortly thereafter. You are, however, also correct that it doesn't really matter what popular support for the war was because 1) lol if you think our elected officials decide matters of foreign policy based on public opinion and 2) manufactured consent the same was true of vietnam, and i dont think you need manufactured consent so much - americans highly esteem the us military and its trustworthiness, and will assume any military action is justified. look at the prevalence of arguments revolving around how veterans protected our country (from who?) and died preserving american freedoms (from what?). this kind of uncritical hero worship naturally translates into broad acceptance of any american military action as probably justified, until people you went to high school with come home in bags
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Oct 31, 2016 23:20
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Well then. https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/status/793214816202657792 quote:NBC News: FBI conducting a preliminary inquiry into Trump's fmr. campaign mgr. Paul Manafort's foreign business ties
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Oct 31, 2016 23:21
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botany posted:Do you have something I can read on that? My understanding of the situation was that the vote was very much about the invasion, but if I'm misremembering I'd like to know. I looked up wikipedia to refresh myself on what I remembered of the timeline. The Senate voted in October 2012. In the beginning of 2013, Bush and a few other nations jointly gave Iraq a deadline to comply with the inspection regime. A couple weeks later the leader of the UN inspections reported that Iraq was still not allowing them full access for inspections. We now know based on documents that Bush had decided on invasion at the end of January, but that wasn't really common knowledge yet. In retrospect, Bush was likely hellbent on the war, but he sold the Senate on the war vote by telling them he needed leverage to make Iraq believe it was their last chance to comply.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:21
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Monaghan posted:I'd prefer not risking a significant conflict over "they didn't do it this one time". Russia isn't going to invade Europe over Syria hth
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Oct 31, 2016 23:21
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I don't think the US has ever really been isolationist except when we didn't have much of a choice. When we were a frontier power who could be slapped around by GB if they gave a gently caress we aren't going to go invade anywhere. Or economy in shabbles and no military or in the middle of fighting or recovering from a civil war so not about to project power.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:22
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Cingulate posted:I know it's a controversial statement around here, but I believe nobody deserves being raped to death. he wasn't actually raped to death. i brought up ambassador stevens as a joke, because there is also a conspiracy theory revolving his sodomization. and now the joke is on you, for accepting faulty information without filtering because it supports your argument and reinforces your worldview
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Oct 31, 2016 23:22
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Dexo posted:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeffrey-marburggoodman/five-myths-about-hillary-iraq-war-vote_b_9177420.html I'm not really convinced, to be honest. It's true that the resolution was not itself a declaration of war but as far as I remember the common understanding at the time was not, "we are granting the president the power to coordinate sanctions with the UN", it was understood that this was a step along the way to an armed conflict. That's how it was discussed in the media at least. That Clinton hedged and called for restraint and diplomacy first and war last is commendable and shows that she's a good politician, but I'm not convinced that "a lot of Senators who voted yes may well have decided to vote no" if they knew the US was heading to war. Dexo posted:TBF at the time W. and his admin wasn't seen as the warmonger war crimes type. (Least from my memory) Cheney and Rumsfeld were, I'm pretty sure. Bush wasn't.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:22
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Please let this take the front page
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Oct 31, 2016 23:22
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Cingulate posted:I know it's a controversial statement around here, but I believe nobody deserves being raped to death. yes you've made that point
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Oct 31, 2016 23:22
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:What, do you think we're trying to kill more but are just about 200 times worse at it then Russia and Syria? Note that IIRC your source is suspect. Having said that, we do hit a lot fewer hospitals and schools than the Russians, though. And don't seem to use weapons that are illegal to use against cities against them, which Russia does. (Though until recently we used to sell them to the Saudis which then used them in Yemen)
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Oct 31, 2016 23:23
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boner confessor posted:the same was true of vietnam, and i dont think you need manufactured consent so much - americans highly esteem the us military and its trustworthiness, and will assume any military action is justified. look at the prevalence of arguments revolving around how veterans protected our country (from who?) and died preserving american freedoms (from what?). this kind of uncritical hero worship naturally translates into broad acceptance of any american military action as probably justified, until people you went to high school with come home in bags I would only point out that this uncritical hero worship is actually due to manufactured consent and not an independent phenomenon that diminishes the necessity of it but otherwise this is a good point
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Oct 31, 2016 23:23
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Fojar38 posted:Russia isn't going to invade Europe over Syria hth No one's suggesting that they will, dude. Stick to what people are actually arguing, ie: it will likely cause a proxy war.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:23
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Fojar38 posted:Please let this take the front page It will if people actually don't care about e-mails. That and it furthers the horse race narrative.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:23
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sit on my Facebook posted:the protests against the Iraq War were larger than the largest protests against the Viet Nam war. I'm not pointing this out to insinuate anything about Hillary because it's pointless to criticize literally anything about her in this thread but this is a really wrong statement Hillary's vote on the Iraq war has been discussed. Again, and again and again. It gets brought up as a concern troll "But what about her Iraq vote  " as if people weren't aware of what the answer would be. She's even discussed it in her memoir:quote:As much as I might have wanted to, I could never change my vote on Iraq. But I could try to help us learn the right lessons from that war and apply them to Afghanistan and other challenges where we had fundamental security interests. I was determined to do exactly that when facing future hard choices, with more experience, wisdom, skepticism, and humility.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:24
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Apropos of this conversation I'll take a moment to remind/introduce people to Jeannette Rankin (R-MT atlarge and 1st ). The first woman elected to the US Congress, who was elected twice, once in 1916 and once in 1940. While this achievement is quite admirable in and of itself, she was also a life-long pacifist who, through truly great timing, had the opportunity to vote against joining both the first and second world wars.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:24
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Fojar38 posted:Please let this take the front page The last few days have been goddamn infuriating. We're now on day four of news sites using "EMAIL PROBE REOPENED" as their headlines with no further detail.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:24
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Cingulate posted:This is weird. Are you doubting I have American friends? Substitute "black" or "gay" for "american" and you'll know why I'm laughing my rear end off. Or don't because you're a dumb rear end. Cingulate posted:Well I'm glad I could contribute to help ease your cognitive load by making your worldview a bit less confusing and a bit more black and white.  No really, tell us more about how in hindsight the iraq war fever was black and white while continuing to dismiss evidence to the contrary.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:25
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good. too bad it won't affect trump.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:25
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farraday posted:Apropos of this conversation I'll take a moment to remind/introduce people to Jeannette Rankin (R-MT atlarge and 1st ). The first woman elected to the US Congress, who was elected twice, once in 1916 and once in 1940. Quite ably demonstrating that pacifism is only right some of the time.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:25
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sit on my Facebook posted:It was more like 60% right at the inception, with somewhere around 3/4s of Americans supporting giving the regime more time to comply with UN weapons inspectors, ranging from a few more weeks to a few more months. Support dropped to around ~50% pretty shortly thereafter. You are, however, also correct that it doesn't really matter what popular support for the war was because 1) lol if you think our elected officials decide matters of foreign policy based on public opinion and 2) manufactured consent Pew seems to think it was closer to 75%, but the actual numbers don't matter too much. The point is that there was sufficient bipartisan support that Democrats felt compelled to support the war. They were just doing what their constituents wanted. That might make them cowards and it certainly makes them culpable in part for what happened, but it doesn't make them hawks and it doesn't mean Clinton is chomping at the bit to start a war.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:25
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Mel Mudkiper posted:The lyrics are a direct response I see your point, but I think it's more the lyrics are a response to the widespread use of nigga by parts of the black community while white folks still see maintain deep prejudices (Happy Hour at the bar while this song is in their car). This is what I think of when talking about Yasiin Bey making a track that's a direct response https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfMx-miPtms
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Oct 31, 2016 23:25
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sit on my Facebook posted:I would only point out that this uncritical hero worship is actually due to manufactured consent i doubt that, rather than due to manipulation i'd say it has more roots in toxic masculinity and xenophobia, and arises organically as part of american culture which tends towards isolationism, individualism, and a desire to seek confrontational solutions. long before mass media americans were settling the frontier, claiming turf and fighting off people who would dispute that turf - and americas earliest national heros arose from these conflicts with native americans. just my opinion though
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Oct 31, 2016 23:25
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Lol it's good and cool how the FBI is publicly beating the poo poo out of itself
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Oct 31, 2016 23:26
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FuzzySlippers posted:I don't think the US has ever really been isolationist except when we didn't have much of a choice. When we were a frontier power who could be slapped around by GB if they gave a gently caress we aren't going to go invade anywhere. Or economy in shabbles and no military or in the middle of fighting or recovering from a civil war so not about to project power. The US definitely could have had a bigger role in international politics in the 20's/30's if the political will to do so existed. At that point, the US economy was by far the largest in the world, accounting for something like 50% of world industrial output immediately after WWI and even at the lowest point of the Depression never dipped below 30%. Yet our military spending was far, far lower than the European powers and Japan and, of course, we didn't engage with the League of Nations.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:26
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boner confessor posted:i doubt that, rather than due to manipulation i'd say it has more roots in toxic masculinity and xenophobia, and arises organically as part of american culture which tends towards isolationism, individualism, and a desire to seek confrontational solutions. just my opinion though Again, that's pretty valid. I think though, that's more of a two-sides-one-coin type of thing because the powers that be surely do their part to encourage that particular national attitude
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Oct 31, 2016 23:28
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Agrajag posted:I've never read anything from Slate.com before, are they a good source for this type of reporting? 
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Oct 31, 2016 23:28
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Lemming posted:Lol it's good and cool how the FBI is publicly beating the poo poo out of itself I guess they've sprung some leaks that are a little pissed about their director trying to stab a candidate in the back.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:28
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:What, do you think we're trying to kill more but are just about 200 times worse at it then Russia and Syria? I don't think the United States is trying to kill more Syrian civilians than Russia and Syria. I am saying that the lives of civilians of other countries has never been a concern when it comes to US foreign policy, except as a flimsy pretense for intervention when it suits the nations interest.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:30
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Inferior Third Season posted:Slate is for the dumbest hot takes imaginable, and for being told you do mundane things wrong. But it also hosts a podcast on the Supreme Court that is informative and doesn't require a law degree to understand, so Like with all of media on the internet you don't follow websites you look for good writers/reporters even bad websites have good writers on it that do very good work. Like Buzzfeed for example.
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Oct 31, 2016 23:30
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sit on my Facebook posted:Again, that's pretty valid. I think though, that's more of a two-sides-one-coin type of thing because the powers that be surely do their part to encourage that particular national attitude sure, nowadays, but rather than being pushed from the top down i think it's more accurate to say they're just manipulating phenomenon which already existed in the american mind. and this distinction is somewhat important when we're talking about whether or not the united states populace broadly accepted a dumb war
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Oct 31, 2016 23:30
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