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OctaMurk posted:If they're psychopaths, which they probably are considering that many of them sought out ISIS and joined it rather than growing up under its reign, then they literally do not have human thoughts and emotions in the same way we do. I would go so far as to say that many of the ISIS hardcore fighters who are responsible for major atrocities really shouldn't be considered human.
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Aug 22, 2014 17:59
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Thump! posted:Having a severe psychological trauma and disability does not remove the humanity of people. They're still members of our species and they still have a functioning human brain inside their skulls, however warped their psyches may be. They're monsters, though. Humans have the potential to be monsters, and these humans definitely are monsters.
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Aug 22, 2014 18:02
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Brown Moses posted:For those of you interested in open source investigations we've just published our latest case study, Gun Safety, Self Defense, and Road Marches – Finding an ISIS Training Camp, showing how ISIS propaganda photos can help find their training camps, in this case in Mosul. This is really excellent. Let us know if you're in need of more eyes for your next project.
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Aug 22, 2014 18:03
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My favorite book is called "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland" It's a psychological and historical case study on the men of the 101st Order Police Battalion, which was mostly made up of working-class German men from Hamburg. Only 25% were even members of the Nazi Party. Their commander, Major Trapp, was openly weeping as he read the orders for the unit to commit its first massacre at Jozefow. He said that anyone who didn't want to do it were allowed to recuse themselves. About 10 men did, the rest of the battalion slaughtered 1,500 Jews that day. The battalion would then go on to murder 83,000 Jews in occupied Poland over the year. Normal people are more than capable of wanton slaughter and psychopathic brutality when put in abnormal social norms and paradigms. Sergg fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Aug 22, 2014 |
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Aug 22, 2014 18:51
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Shaocaholica posted:I guess you can technically behead someone by firing squad: Moderate Muslims around the world can't be happy that religious extremists have irrevocably linked the Takbir with violence and murder in the minds of most westerners. It has basically turned into an audio swastika.
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Aug 22, 2014 18:52
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Droopy Goines posted:audio swastika Yeah.
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Aug 22, 2014 18:54
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S.T.C.A. posted:The hell for? Is this Shia on Sunni violence or just a new turn towards an even shittier situation? Baghdad is blaming ISIS and AAH have denied involvement. Not many people seem to be buying it though. Baghdad is also claiming a suicide bomber was involved followed by a gun attack on fleeing civilians, other people are just reporting a gun attack. Suicide bombings aren't really AAH's modus operandi as far as I know, they prefer rocket/mortar attacks. edit: quoted the wrong part of the drat post
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Aug 22, 2014 19:01
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C'mon Obama, you know you've been saving an "errant drone strike" for something like this:quote:Westboro Baptist Church, the hate group that masquerades as a religious organization, is known for their publicity stunts, but they may have bit off more than they can chew with this one. After a comedian offered to pay for them to fly to Iraq so they can protest real Christian persecution at the hands of Islamic militants, the group tweeted that they have accepted his offer. They want to take their picket signs and head over to a country currently occupied by a group that beheads Christian children without hesitation – this ought to go well. http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/22/this-should-go-well-westboro-baptist-church-says-its-going-to-iraq-to-protest-isis/
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Aug 22, 2014 19:05
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Phlegmish posted:That's interesting. Do you have any source for Sunnis being pushed out of Baghdad in general? http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/31/iraq-pro-government-militias-trail-death
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Aug 22, 2014 19:18
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Also on cleansing during the war http://musingsoniraq.blogspot.co.uk/2009/11/blog-post.html
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Aug 22, 2014 19:25
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suboptimal posted:C'mon Obama, you know you've been saving an "errant drone strike" for something like this: Eh, they'd never leave the Green Zone and they'd probably end up protesting outside the US Embassy. They're professional con-men, they'd love to force someone to pay for their vacation.
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Aug 22, 2014 19:27
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lol "Guys, we swear it wasn't these Shia death squads! Cross our hearts. Even though we have checkpoints at ever street corner full of Shiite death squads, and this was a Sunni mosque. Totally ISIS. Totally..." EDIT: poo poo. "Two Sunni parliamentary blocs have suspended talks on forming a new Iraqi government to protest the attack. The blocs affiliated with Parliament Speaker Salim al-Jabouri and Deputy Prime Minister Saleh al Mutlak are demanding that outgoing Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and the main Shia parliamentary bloc hand over the perpetrators within 48 hours and compensate the families of victims, the AP news agency reported." http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/dozens-dead-attack-sunni-mosque-iraq-2014822121452319807.html You can kiss your deal in the Iraqi Parliament goodbye. Sergg fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Aug 22, 2014 |
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Aug 22, 2014 19:30
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Droopy Goines posted:Moderate Muslims around the world can't be happy that religious extremists have irrevocably linked the Takbir with violence and murder in the minds of most westerners. Is this phrase universally used throughout the Islamic world? Is it the same in Arabic, Persian, Farsi, Pashto, etc.; a universally used phrase?
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Aug 22, 2014 19:45
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Sergg posted:lol "Guys, we swear it wasn't these Shia death squads! Cross our hearts. Even though we have checkpoints at ever street corner full of Shiite death squads, and this was a Sunni mosque. Totally ISIS. Totally..." They weren't saying anything when daily carbombs killing 30 shia for a year happened. This just says that these sunnis support ISIS and want to subvert democracy. When the yazidis where being massacred, these guys where doing nothing as well. Maybe they should hand over the ISIS perpetrators that mass murder shia and minorities but they won't. That's why one of there political leaders is in exile in Turkey calling for continued "resistance" in Iraq after he was judged and sentenced to death for being a leader of one of these sectarian terrorist organization.
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Aug 22, 2014 19:57
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quote:If American can't even send troops to the part of the world that has the worst war atrocity righ now, whats the point of spending godzillions of dollars on military budget. Well first off sustained military operations actually cost money on top of the budget itself, so you are demanding a far larger military budget. Second, trying to fighting Russia AND China and trying to clean up the Middle East all at once is in fact probably going to bankrupt us and there is a good chance we might actually lose. The US has finite resources, so it all depends on much you want to blow them on adventurism. Also, you will probably get your wish, it will be Hillary or a Republican after 2016 which means a Reagnite foreign policy. I suspect the US budget may finally snap under the burden considering taxes will never be raised to pay for interventionism.
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Aug 22, 2014 20:01
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GuyinCognito posted:They weren't saying anything when daily carbombs killing 30 shia for a year happened. This just says that these sunnis support ISIS and want to subvert democracy. When the yazidis where being massacred, these guys where doing nothing as well. Maybe they should hand over the ISIS perpetrators that mass murder shia and minorities but they won't. That's why one of there political leaders is in exile in Turkey calling for continued "resistance" in Iraq after he was judged and sentenced to death for being a leader of one of these sectarian terrorist organization. Well that and they would also prefer that their constituents not be mass murdered. I mean, if a militia that's on the government payroll mass-murders 72 innocent civilians inside a mosque during Friday prayers, is that an unreasonable demand? That the killers be brought to justice and the families compensated? Sergg fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Aug 22, 2014 |
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Aug 22, 2014 20:02
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A little blip of good news: https://twitter.com/HaremKarem/status/502872452536356865 
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Aug 22, 2014 20:03
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GuyinCognito posted:They weren't saying anything when daily carbombs killing 30 shia for a year happened. This just says that these sunnis support ISIS and want to subvert democracy. When the yazidis where being massacred, these guys where doing nothing as well. Maybe they should hand over the ISIS perpetrators that mass murder shia and minorities but they won't. That's why one of there political leaders is in exile in Turkey calling for continued "resistance" in Iraq after he was judged and sentenced to death for being a leader of one of these sectarian terrorist organization. This is like those "why don't the protestors gather all rowdy vandals and give them to the police" posts only a thousand times dumber.
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Aug 22, 2014 20:06
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Sergg posted:Well that and they would also prefer that their constituents not be mass murdered. Don't forget that the Iraqi Air Force have been dropping Barrel bombs on predominately Sunni cities with little care for civilian casualties, they aren't ones for precision strikes. Those Sunni politicians should suck it up and just accept that their constituents are unfortunate collateral damage god dammit 
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Aug 22, 2014 20:08
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Sergg posted:My favorite book is called "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland" It's a psychological and historical case study on the men of the 101st Order Police Battalion, which was mostly made up of working-class German men from Hamburg. Only 25% were even members of the Nazi Party. Their commander, Major Trapp, was openly weeping as he read the orders for the unit to commit its first massacre at Jozefow. He said that anyone who didn't want to do it were allowed to recuse themselves. About 10 men did, the rest of the battalion slaughtered 1,500 Jews that day. The battalion would then go on to murder 83,000 Jews in occupied Poland over the year. I've read this, and A Long Way Gone, and my absolute favorite book of horrific warcrimes as told by the perpetrators, Japan At War. The difference is that the ISIS fighters were not caught up in this war, were not conscripted, etc. Many of them lived in Britain or Sweden or wherever, saw propaganda videos espousing horrific violence, then went and joined in it. After watching the video with the Canadian ISIS soldier im convinced that most ISIS foreign folks are simply interested in the opportunity to pillage, rape, kill and control other people.
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Aug 22, 2014 20:11
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Man, I always thought the whole "one American life counts for a billion people from other countries" thing was like a joke people made about lunatic conservative talk show hosts or something, but I guess this is a more common thing than I thought? Anyways, what is it that people are so mad at ISIS about specifically right now? These executions and massacres are pretty standard for the region, right? This poo poo's been going on for a long rear end time now, they're doing what people do when they wanna gently caress poo poo up and take over a country in the Middle East. Is it just because they're filming it in HD so a bunch of naive people can actually see what this kind of thing looks like?
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Aug 22, 2014 20:13
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I'm not even gonna deny that a lot of the Sunnis in the Iraqi parliament are ISIS supporters. Clearly there is widespread popular support for ISIS in Sunni districts. The big problem is that, right now, ISIS is a rational choice for many Sunnis in Iraq. When their alternative is to be occupied by Iraqi government militias that mass-murder and ethnically cleanse Sunnis, ISIS is a logical and reasonable alternative to them. Yeah, the Sunnis definitely started this poo poo. They started it back during the initial insurgency, they carbombed 10,000 Shia to death every drat year, they attacked Shia holy sites without provocation. Their strategy was to deliberately provoke a civil war. It worked, and they lost it in round 1. They were lured back to the table with promises of autonomy and self-policing, which turned out to be bullshit. The Sunnis have now proven that they don't need to ask permission for that. They can just take it by force, and you will never bring them back to the negotiating table if you can't convince them that they won't just be summarily executed the moment they lay down their guns.
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Aug 22, 2014 20:18
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ChairMaster posted:Man, I always thought the whole "one American life counts for a billion people from other countries" thing was like a joke people made about lunatic conservative talk show hosts or something, but I guess this is a more common thing than I thought? Certainly it is going to be interesting with the calls of "wiping ISIS out" considering there still isn't as of yet a game plan for what to do with those areas after you bomb them or send in ground troops. Do we give Eastern Syrian over to Assad? Are the "good" Syrian rebels suppose to handle it when Assad is slowly but surely strangling them? Are we suppose to occupy it with ground troops with no end date? How about if a real political compromise doesn't happen in Iraq? If the Sunnis start getting overrun do we just turn a blind eye because they "backed the wrong horse." A lot of pretty big questions.
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Aug 22, 2014 20:18
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Ardennes posted:How about if a real political compromise doesn't happen in Iraq? If the Sunnis start getting overrun do we just turn a blind eye because they "backed the wrong horse." The Iraqi government doesn't put its massacres on Youtube so we'll just see occasional numbers in a news report somewhere accompanied by an official denial from the government. People will say "Boy am I glad ISIS got its butt kicked! Hey man did you hear about Robin Williams? Yeah, his death made me really bummed."
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Aug 22, 2014 20:27
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Deteriorata posted:France asked the US to come help it hold its territory, but the US told them to gently caress off. Off topic, but the French war effort in Indochina was funded largely with US money. The reasoning behind this support still derived from Cold War logic, but considering the US was actively flying supplies into Dien Bien Phu, it would be hard to argue that the US told France to gently caress off. The US was happy to support the French Empire, so long as it was a useful instrument in the fight against communism.
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Aug 22, 2014 20:29
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More Centcom videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQdjrotXZMU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1FlcbDEslM
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Aug 22, 2014 20:44
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Sergg posted:Well that and they would also prefer that their constituents not be mass murdered. That is for the police to do. The government doesn't owe them a god drat thing. These sunni political blocks are just empowering ISIS even after malaki left so that that even worse mass murders happen. If China invaded the USA and republicans blocked Obama from declaring war on China, the people would most definitely hang them as the traitors that they are. Each day that the government isn't formed is one more day that the terrorists win. These people seem to want that to happen.
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Aug 22, 2014 20:54
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swizz posted:This is really excellent. Let us know if you're in need of more eyes for your next project. Well at the moment I'm trying to find the exact location of the James Foley execution. As it stands I'm fairly certain it's here, but I'm trying to be 100% sure. The video is shot from four positions, so there's not much you can see These two pictures show the position of his body after the execution, and reveals a little more detail about the area. Looks like there's a dirt road running through the area   Here's another angle, filmed from the right side  I'm unclear how close this is filmed to the other location, I assume it's fairly close  Here's a Google Earth .kmz file for anyone who wants a look at my thinking on this. Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Aug 22, 2014 |
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Aug 22, 2014 21:04
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GuyinCognito posted:That is for the police to do. The government doesn't owe them a god drat thing. These sunni political blocks are just empowering ISIS even after malaki left so that that even worse mass murders happen. If China invaded the USA and republicans blocked Obama from declaring war on China, the people would most definitely hang them as the traitors that they are. This analogy doesn't make much sense because Republicans weren't stripped from power, erased from memory, and thrown to the curb with the trash. I agree that it's disgusting that Sunni's who supported the Sons of Iraq in the past, and don't buy into ISIS' ideology, are supporting them because they want to defeat Shia's rather than make Iraq work, but it's complicated. People don't react well to having things taken from them.
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Aug 22, 2014 21:04
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GuyinCognito posted:That is for the police to do. The government doesn't owe them a god drat thing. These sunni political blocks are just empowering ISIS even after malaki left so that that even worse mass murders happen. If China invaded the USA and republicans blocked Obama from declaring war on China, the people would most definitely hang them as the traitors that they are. So what do you about the Sunni population there? Yeah, calling them all just a bunch of traitors seems like a pretty short-sighted conclusion. Ultimately, taking back Kurdish territory (which included the dam) is the easy part compared to what do you actually want to do with the Sunni majority areas. Who actually goes on the ground in those areas and if it is the Iraq army, what stops them from collapsing again? If you just want send in Shiite militias to "clean house" you better accept the very clear consequences for those actions.
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Aug 22, 2014 21:11
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To get back at the "Is IS infiltrated" Thing: I would guess that the Groups with the largest amount of Infiltration into IS are propably the Assad Regime, followed by perhaps Iran and also Russia. Reasoning is as follows: -Syrian intelligence Services had excellent motiviations, and imho also the ability to Infiltrate Sadamm Iraqs Baath Party. One should remember that Syria was a western ally in the first gulf war. -Syrian intelligence got a couple of extra opportunities for turning and for Infiltration. -Former Baathists that happen to be Syrian operatives and went over to IS commanding significant Military potentials are not People IS can simply strap a suicide bomb on and tell them to go martyr themselfs. This generally happens when IS suspects someone, and they could not do this to people representing credible potentials without significant drawbacks. -The same reasoning applies for Iran, even though they would have a bit more difficulties since Iraqi Baathis hate Iran much more than they hate(d) the Syrian Baath party. -Russia also had ties with the Baath, but not as deep going since the Kurds were the Soviet allies (and alliance that goes back a really Long time, and was also a reason why the Iranian Mullahs hated the Soviets) before Brezhnev dumped them in favor of Sadamm. I would be on the watchout for how dearly the Assad gouverment will sell their Infiltration knowledge.
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Aug 22, 2014 21:28
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Sergg posted:My favorite book is called "Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland" It's a psychological and historical case study on the men of the 101st Order Police Battalion, which was mostly made up of working-class German men from Hamburg. Only 25% were even members of the Nazi Party. Their commander, Major Trapp, was openly weeping as he read the orders for the unit to commit its first massacre at Jozefow. He said that anyone who didn't want to do it were allowed to recuse themselves. About 10 men did, the rest of the battalion slaughtered 1,500 Jews that day. The battalion would then go on to murder 83,000 Jews in occupied Poland over the year. Seriously, it is easy, really easy actually to turn normal humans into murder machines. It happened throughout history, and I would guess that everyone of us could be turned into a murder machine in similiar situations, and be turned quickly.
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Aug 22, 2014 21:31
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If you have half of your family blown up or tortured to death, a lot of morals will go out the window pretty quickly.
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Aug 22, 2014 22:20
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GuyIncognito, how would you feel if, tomorrow, ISIS collapsed, and the occupation of ISIS cities by the Iraqi and Syrian governments saw 500,000 Sunnis being killed in reprisals?
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Aug 22, 2014 22:29
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IS doesn't even need to be infiltrated. They always run around in masks so all Assad has to do is have some guys run around waiving the IS flag and stir up trouble amongst the raqqa locals to foment a counter rebellion. France did something similar in Algeria, false flagging the rebels there.
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Aug 22, 2014 22:30
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Sergg posted:GuyIncognito, how would you feel if, tomorrow, ISIS collapsed, and the occupation of ISIS cities by the Iraqi and Syrian governments saw 500,000 Sunnis being killed in reprisals? Hmm, I never thought of the potential blow back on those who actually stayed in the cities once they are liberated.
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Aug 22, 2014 22:32
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Sergg posted:GuyIncognito, how would you feel if, tomorrow, ISIS collapsed, and the occupation of ISIS cities by the Iraqi and Syrian governments saw 500,000 Sunnis being killed in reprisals? You try to murder 500,000 Sunni's in Iraq, and you're gonna have 500,000 Sunni's shooting at you.
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Aug 22, 2014 22:34
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Torpor posted:IS doesn't even need to be infiltrated. They always run around in masks so all Assad has to do is have some guys run around waiving the IS flag and stir up trouble amongst the raqqa locals to foment a counter rebellion. France did something similar in Algeria, false flagging the rebels there. And as we all know, France won the Algerian war!
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Aug 22, 2014 22:37
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Thanks for getting that for me. Was at work. But yeah, the Sunnis presence in Baghdad is slowly but surely being driven out. It's not as loud and dumb as ISIS's cleansing, but it's just as effective and deadly. Oh, and good job by the Shia militias today blowing up any slight hopes at a rapproachment between the Sunnis and Shias in Iraq. Can't have that happening can we! I bet the guy that was in charge gets a slight slap on the wrist for letting things get a little bit out of hand, but nothing too bad. Gotta break some eggs to make an omlette, war is hell, our brave boys, etc. etc.
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Aug 22, 2014 22:50
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The-Mole posted:If you have half of your family blown up or tortured to death, a lot of morals will go out the window pretty quickly. That's a rather large generalization. Lots of people have suffered terrible tragedies at personal level with no effect on their moral outlook. At the same time you have people like Stalin, Hitler and Osama bin Laden who were raised in good safe middle to upper class families and still became monsters. Anders Breivik didn't murder dozens of children at point blank range due to him or his family being blown up or tortured. Many of the worst terrorists are like them, special little princesses with delusions of grandeur. Their childhoods may have been somehow rotten, maybe they were bullied at school, maybe parents didn't hug them enough, maybe they were born that way, but in any case they never were going to fit in. All it took was a charismatic mentor or other influence to tell whom to hate.
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Aug 22, 2014 22:57
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