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Tom Perez B/K/M? This poll is closed. |
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77 | 25.50% |
| K |
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160 | 52.98% |
| M |
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65 | 21.52% |
| Total: | 229 votes | ||
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Reconstruction was a huge heaping of neoconservativism from noted neocons like Ulysses Grant and Elihu Washburne.
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Jun 14, 2017 13:14
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I disagree with you B5. Even though Saddam Hussain is a monster, I don't think it would be a good idea for the U.S. to invade Iraq.
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Jun 14, 2017 13:19
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Ah, the Klavern is jumping all over themselves because their lizard brains think they smell weakness. No, that's the fine cocktail of cordite and trinitrotoluene you're inhaling.
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Jun 14, 2017 13:24
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Equivocation and false equivalences as though every US intervention was the civil war and ww2 rolled into one are beneath you.
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Jun 14, 2017 14:14
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RedSpider posted:is this the part where you tell us that Obamacare is better for poor people and minorities than single-payer Effectronica actually isn't a centrist, just a very very stupid leftist who unironically thought voting for the lady slaveholder was correct choice(did I mention she was a lady?). Suffering from 2016 election broken brain-ness. Wait until the rage subsides and you might be able to get him to answer a question straight faced without devolving into Majoram's bedroom habits or declaring that anyone who supports Bernie is actually a part of the Klu Klux Klan
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Jun 14, 2017 14:25
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I don't think somebody who unironically advocates for exporting democracy through the barrel of a gun is a leftist. Also that Bremer's plan for Iraq was absolutely amazing and fail proof. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 14:26
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steinrokkan posted:I don't think somebody who unironically advocates for exporting democracy through the barrel of a gun is a leftist. I don't think they do, they're just throwing a fit trying to win an argument. Granted, it's always hard to tell with Eff. You'll notice they don't actually make a point, they just find someone who used a word they disagree with, and shovel schizophrenia and nazi namecalling at them until they shut up.
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Jun 14, 2017 14:28
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alright but how do you export democracy? should you?
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Jun 14, 2017 14:30
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Goa Tse-tung posted:alright but how do you export democracy? should you? Democracy must be in the first place demanded by civil society, the best a foreign power can do is aid those in effecting their own plans and give them asylum from persecution. Certainly not push them aside and brute force a new constitution in a country you personally threw into complete chaos. All democracies created from top to bottom - that is by an edict of some elites - turn AT BEST into corrupt, lifeless, stagnating regimes with no popular political participation. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 14:33
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Agnosticnixie posted:Equivocation and false equivalences as though every US intervention was the civil war and ww2 rolled into one are beneath you. Nobody offers up any means by which the two might be distinguished, and indeed steinrokkan is unironically arguing that Reconstruction was unjustified, and people explicitly have disclaimed that the fact that Iraq was invaded to make it a client state is of any relevancy to the outcome of the invasion. So, it's not a false equivalency unless you can show they aren't equivalent and how, beyond appealing to common sense. Can you? Because I don't think you can without opening the door up to other interventions in the internal politics of other nations, if it is acceptable to invade them and forcibly impose dramatic shifts in political power and where it resides, to the point of use of military force to enforce that rearrangement. Now, I think that there's a way, or several ways, to say Reconstruction was good and Iraq bad without relying on received wisdom. I doubt you have the willingness to discuss that beyond screeching "neocon!", or that anyone in this thread does, with me or anyone else, but hell, that's no different from any other issue. This is without pointing out that non-military interventions are also verboten by this thread's consensus.
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Jun 14, 2017 15:42
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I can't say that there's a pure, 100% surefire way to figure it out and be right about it everytime and I don't think anyone really can. But outside the world of oughts and in the world of ises, I can certainly say that US interventionism of late has been a humanitarian disaster and that so long as people who listen to Kissinger as foreign policy influences, I will question every drive for war based on the optic that the US foreign policy establishment still treats a man who killed millions as an elder statesman and mentor. "Send the marines" shouldn't be the unironic response of State for everything. Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 15:58
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Americans were able to impose their laws on parts of their own country, that means they should be imposing their laws everywhere in the world - through force, preferably. I guess that approach worked for Napoleon, but that's about it.
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Jun 14, 2017 16:16
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Also, it doesn't matter what consequences there were to Bush's policies, the thing that matters is that he followed his gut instinct and showed strong spirit. The rest be damned.
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Jun 14, 2017 16:23
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Agnosticnixie posted:I can't say that there's a pure, 100% surefire way to figure it out and be right about it everytime and I don't think anyone really can. Well, you stupid motherfucker, this entire thread is about y'all working to take over the entirety of the US government, ostensibly. I guess that when I made mean comments about how this thread was actually about putting on an act of depression, I hit the fuckin' nail on the head. steinrokkan posted:Americans were able to impose their laws on parts of their own country, that means they should be imposing their laws everywhere in the world - through force, preferably. Are you really sure you want to go down the road of arguing ethnicity is an eternal truth? Because that's the only way your shitpost makes any sense at all.
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Jun 14, 2017 16:25
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Brainiac Five posted:Reconstruction was a huge heaping of neoconservativism from noted neocons like Ulysses Grant and Elihu Washburne. This would seem to suggest that the Southern States were, in fact, another country that the U.S. invaded and was occupying, which is actually not the case.
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Jun 14, 2017 17:00
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 Progressive Foreign Policy Platform: An Illustrated Proposal The blackboard is basically this thread right now
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Jun 14, 2017 17:41
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Majorian posted:This would seem to suggest that the Southern States were, in fact, another country that the U.S. invaded and was occupying, which is actually not the case. Ah, another post about how ethnicities are Platonic forms, unchanging and eternal. It's interesting to see a professed leftist endorse this kind of thinking.
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Jun 14, 2017 17:42
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The actual logical conclusion of what noted intellectual luminaries Majorian and steinrokkan are proposing is that if you "fabricate claims" to define the target of invasion as part of your country beforehand, you face no problems whatsoever. I feel almost certain that they've played too many video games.
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Jun 14, 2017 17:45
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Brainiac Five posted:Ah, another post about how ethnicities are Platonic forms, unchanging and eternal. It's interesting to see a professed leftist endorse this kind of thinking. Can you take a break from your incoherent ad hominems and white hot rage at the sheer inferiority of those around you to circle back to some sort of point? This thread was pretty good before you showed up again.
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Jun 14, 2017 17:53
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Remember when these forums were growing and not dying, and people with obvious unaddressed and unresolved mental issues who persistently make death threats to people they disagree with were banned outright and immediately because nobody who matters likes reading that filth? Instead of letting them make 60% of the posts on a page for ten pages or so, making constant particular rules-lawyered exceptions for their behavior specifically, mostly in order to forestall their inevitable murder/suicide?
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Jun 14, 2017 17:55
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Willie Tomg posted:Remember when these forums were growing and not dying, and people with obvious unaddressed and unresolved mental issues who persistently make death threats to people they disagree with were banned outright and immediately because nobody who matters likes reading that filth? Yes and I miss it. It's comical how low the standards have gotten in D&D. The worst part is that it only takes one idiot to drag the discourse down and there's nobody willing to stop it.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:06
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Willie Tomg posted:Remember when these forums were growing and not dying, and people with obvious unaddressed and unresolved mental issues who persistently make death threats to people they disagree with were banned outright and immediately because nobody who matters likes reading that filth? Instead of letting them make 60% of the posts on a page for ten pages or so, making constant particular rules-lawyered exceptions for their behavior specifically, mostly in order to forestall their inevitable murder/suicide? You're the guy who said Trump voters are more in line with real leftism than LGBT people, or at least I have no other idea why you'd sneer about "Tumblr omnisexuals" when recommending a proud hater of immigrants attend DSA meetings, because he'd have sympathy there. So your little hissy fits about my existence, your posts slobbering and obscenely panting over the prospect of my death, they are coming from someone whose disapproval ought to be sought by anyone with even an iota of moral character. The ground where you walk should be seeded with salt as a warning to the future.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:08
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NewForumSoftware posted:Yes and I miss it. It's comical how low the standards have gotten in D&D. The worst part is that it only takes one idiot to drag the discourse down and there's nobody willing to stop it. so who are you a rereg of then, because your timeline doesn't add up
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Jun 14, 2017 18:10
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stone cold posted:so who are you a rereg of then, because your timeline doesn't add up A moderator already doxxed all my previous accounts look through my post history (pretty sure it was the D&D chat thread) and start at the beginning 
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Jun 14, 2017 18:12
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NewForumSoftware posted:A moderator already doxxed all my previous accounts look through my post history (pretty sure it was the D&D chat thread) and start at the beginning instead of being a tedious poo poo, as if your posts aren't boring enough, you could just say... im guessing you're somebody who really must've sucked out loud
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Jun 14, 2017 18:13
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stone cold posted:instead of being a tedious poo poo, as if your posts aren't boring enough, you could just say... im guessing literally nobody would remember a single post I made a lovely poster, down with slavery, etc
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Jun 14, 2017 18:14
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I like the idea that the thread is good when it's a bunch of people stumbling towards suicidal ideation as they hyperventilate over how simultaneously Democrats are already obsolete and also going to kill us all, and bad when someone offers any dissenting point of view. It certainly communicates the strength of your ideological convictions!
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Jun 14, 2017 18:14
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Brainiac Five posted:I like the idea that the thread is good Not true as long as you keep posting like a hippopotamus in here
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Jun 14, 2017 18:15
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NewForumSoftware posted:Not true as long as you keep posting like a hippopotamus in here You gonna make some more creepy posts about rape over it?
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Jun 14, 2017 18:16
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Brainiac Five posted:You gonna make some more creepy posts about rape over it? No, just poke you occasionally until you get banned for your latest posting bender. Engaging with you honestly is basically impossible, however you think about things your ability to communicate your ideas is sorely lacking. NewForumSoftware fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jun 14, 2017 |
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Jun 14, 2017 18:17
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Brainiac Five posted:Well, you stupid motherfucker, this entire thread is about y'all working to take over the entirety of the US government, ostensibly. I guess that when I made mean comments about how this thread was actually about putting on an act of depression, I hit the fuckin' nail on the head. Brainiac Five posted:Pretty funny that the presence of fascists in Ukraine potentially justifies it being a Russian client state but the presence of fascists in the USA doesn't prompt a similar call for soul-searching over whether Americans deserve healthcare or a basic standard of living. I guess only Anglos can be "economically anxious". The problem with talking about what Ukraine "deserves" is that all discussion about it is predicated on power of actually doing something about it. Any idea that US should forcibly send troops to counter Russian aggression is stopped by the obvious nature that it runs counter to US geopolitical goals and is more trouble then it's worth for the current establishments goals. So first step in sending troops to Ukraine (if that's what we have decided will help them and is 100% the moral thing to do) is to take control of the US government. But to do that you need need to seize power. And to do that you need to offer material benefits to a section of the populous(such as classes) and win their support, you know, politics. Unless you have a better idea how elections are won or power seized. By all means, do tell. And that's where your ideology falls apart. Your ideology is powerless, because you base all your political conversations on morality. You have nothing material to offer and as such you have no power to convince anyone, in this thread or elsewhere. You have nothing except complaints, and hoping to trap us in some kind of gotcha trap. You can't build a house made of dynamite.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:18
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NewForumSoftware posted:No, just poke you occasionally until you get banned for your latest posting bender. So the mods are unfairly repressing you by not permabanning me but also will ban me regardless of what I do. Seems like y'all are a bunch of whiners, which is in line with your approach to politics. Wait for your Great Maple Hope to save you instead of taking political action, write puerile passive-aggression instead of taking action. Contemptible.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:19
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Brainiac Five posted:You're the guy who said Trump voters are more in line with real leftism than LGBT people, or at least I have no other idea why you'd sneer about "Tumblr omnisexuals" He has more in common with leftism than folk like you who exist on the internet and nowhere else, maybe you're queer, maybe you're not, I don't really care and neither do most actually-existing humans if you can believe that. People like you do not go to organization meetings because you are insane and off-putting IRL which is probably where all your free time for posting comes from.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:20
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Brainiac Five posted:So the mods are unfairly repressing you by not permabanning me but also will ban me regardless of what I do. Seems like y'all are a bunch of whiners, which is in line with your approach to politics. Wait for your Great Maple Hope to save you instead of taking political action, write puerile passive-aggression instead of taking action. Contemptible. The mods aren't repressing anyone you're just a bad poster who pops up every month or so to troll this thread until you get banned. What's funny is I actually like your posting when you make an actual point, if you could filter out all aggression I think you have a lot of ideas that could actually be good if you were willing to share them. I know I know, not with nazi bernie bros like us.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:21
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White Rock posted:Let's circle back to your original post then. Saying morality is powerless, or indeed that ideology is powerless, says a lot about you, namely that nobody should be left alone in a room with you unless armed. More relevantly, this kind of ultravulgar Marxism is built on nothing less than the desire to dare to be stupid, which is certainly something you can do but not something which most people find compelling.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:24
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Willie Tomg posted:He has more in common with leftism than folk like you who exist on the internet and nowhere else, maybe you're queer, maybe you're not, I don't really care and neither do most actually-existing humans if you can believe that. People like you do not go to organization meetings because you are insane and off-putting IRL which is probably where all your free time for posting comes from. Okay, so you're fine with we "queers" until we stop being submissive to you breeders, at which point you align yourself with proud bigots. Possibly the reason you don't encounter gays who aren't covering is that your local organizations are off-putting to minority people because they recruit Trump voters, fucko. I also love the statement that homophobia and transphobia aren't real, which really puts the cap on your expressed beliefs.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:28
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coathat posted:Yes! Ofcourse it would be better if we had a president who wanted to do the same things a Trump but was more competent. Imagine how good it be if the Muslim ban wasn't incompetently implemented! Ytlaya posted:I'm not exactly against Trump being impeached. If he actually colluded with Russia to an extent warranting his dismissal, I think it's necessary just for the sake of enforcing our laws. I just don't see it making a big difference in terms of actual practical results otherwise. Before the election I would have agreed with your rationale of "at least we can rely on Pence not to start a nuclear war", but based upon Trump's time in office so far I don't think he's going to randomly launch any nukes or anything equally crazy either. He tweets dumb stuff, but nuking a country (or whatever) is more or less the equivalent of randomly murdering someone, which as far as I know Trump hasn't done, so clearly he's at least not that insane. Also, there are some potential benefits to keeping Trump in office over some other Republicans. His incompetence could make hamper Republican efforts to actually pass their terrible legislation (for example the stuff with Trump demanding an AHCA vote and what have you), and it also helps keep Democrats/liberals motivated. And as recent approval polls have shown, "Trump supporter" is not synonymous with "Trump voter". Will some MAGA-types double down and even resort to violence? Possibly. But politically they won't matter, and many of them may also stop feeling quite so emboldened and go back to grumbling in private instead of yelling in public.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:28
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Brainiac Five posted:Okay, so you're fine with we "queers" until we stop being submissive to you breeders, at which point you align yourself with proud bigots. Possibly the reason you don't encounter gays who aren't covering is that your local organizations are off-putting to minority people because they recruit Trump voters, fucko. This is not true and you're writing fanfiction about an IRL org and that's pretty funny, but not in the way that made this forum good ever.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:29
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Brainiac Five posted:Saying morality is powerless, or indeed that ideology is powerless, says a lot about you, namely that nobody should be left alone in a room with you unless armed. More relevantly, this kind of ultravulgar Marxism is built on nothing less than the desire to dare to be stupid, which is certainly something you can do but not something which most people find compelling. Even the quality of your half-baked ad-homs is declining. Normally you have to really corner someone around here to get the kind of incoherent backpedaling garbage you post, but it's increasingly obvious you don't actually have anything to say.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:30
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Brainiac Five posted:Saying morality is powerless, or indeed that ideology is powerless, says a lot about you, namely that nobody should be left alone in a room with you unless armed. More relevantly, this kind of ultravulgar Marxism is built on nothing less than the desire to dare to be stupid, which is certainly something you can do but not something which most people find compelling. I do not care how bad of a person you think i am. I never claimed that ideology is powerless, just that ideology is inherently self serving, not a morality play. If an ideology was bad for the people practicing it, they would stop preaching it! There hasn't been an successful ideology based on self sacrifice.
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Jun 14, 2017 18:31
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