JeffersonClay posted:

There's no coherent argument where Hillary is a monster for benefitting from (but not instituting) a system of prison labor in Arkansas that doesn't also indict FDR (or Jimmy Carter) to a much more substantial degree. I don't want to indict any of them.

rudatron posted:

Hillary was not a wartime leader in 1940s US, and she did what she did post-civil rights. Maybe that is relevant?

Brainiac Five posted:

Are you aware that black people voted massively for Hillary Clinton in both the primary and general election? Because your theory requires that they be too stupid/ignorant to know that Hillary Clinton is super racist.

Brainiac Five posted:

Are you aware that black people voted massively for Hillary Clinton in both the primary and general election? Because your theory requires that they be too stupid/ignorant to know that Hillary Clinton is super racist.

quote:

A poll of black voters in California commissioned by the African American Voter Registration Education Participation Project conducted by Evitarus found that 71% of 800 likely voters surveyed supported Clinton. But among the black voters younger than 40, half said they would probably vote for Sanders, compared with 34% for Clinton. The poll had a margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.

Brainiac Five posted:

OK, so now you've come up with the alternate theory: racism is logical. I guess you ignored the "primary" part of the post, so go ahead and try again.

NewForumSoftware posted:

VitalSigns posted:

There's a lot of evidence that this was a generational divide and that black people younger than 40 when overwhelmingly for Sanders

Brainiac Five posted:

Are you aware that black people voted massively for Hillary Clinton in both the primary and general election? Because your theory requires that they be too stupid/ignorant to know that Hillary Clinton is super racist.

Brainiac Five posted:

Why is that relevant except as an excuse for racism against Japanese people, rudatron?

Futuresight posted:

Yeah but I don't know what reasons they had for that so I'm not going to try and speak about black people as though I did or treat them like a hive-mind who all think alike. I'm talking about the Hillary primary voters we had on these forums whose arguments I actually read at the time.

rudatron posted:

Because I think you should judge people based on the context they are in. Why is that controversial?

rudatron posted:

And why is that?

Brainiac Five posted:

People like ice cream, we should nominate ice cream for president. Also I didn't say anything about your Great Maple Hope, fuckface.

Brainiac Five posted:

So only black people under the age of 40 are smart enough to know what racism is, and you also lied by saying a 10-point margin is "overwhelmingly". I mean, it's interesting how you immediately run to defend your god-king, but it's not particularly relevant except as an example of how pathetic you are.

NewForumSoftware posted:

... yikes

anyways, he has a higher favorability with black people than Hillary ever had

could it be possible that Bernie didn't run his campaign as well as Clinton and thusly lost the primary as opposed to "Hillary was the least racist candidate because more black people voted for her"

VitalSigns posted:

A 16-point margin is a landslide but okay.

It's evidence that race was not the significant factor in predicting support for Bernie or Clinton, age was.

Brainiac Five posted:

Aw gee, ma, Bernie Sanders ran his campaign poorly so I just gotta vote for the super racist.

Did this even sound convincing in your head?

rudatron posted:

The best thing the mods could do for you, is quarantine you to a select number of places (d&d chat, etc.), until you learn to communicate with people in a way that's not looking for confrontation, baiting responses to validate yourself.

Brainiac Five posted:

No, you're not, you're making general statements. Also I love that you don't know any black people in real life. Very fitting.

Brainiac Five posted:

Because it's possible to construct a context in which any action is justifiable, so it becomes impossible to make moral judgments about anything. It's a way to avoid condemning immorality. I am not surprised you want a way to do so, since it probably makes you feel better about yourself to think that you're in a "context" where your victimizations are justifiable.

NewForumSoftware posted:

"Who's Bernie Sanders?"
-95% of the country, the day he announces his campaign

also Hillary Clinton is far from what I'd call super racist. I mean, she's bad, but the bar is pretty high for super racism, even in 2017.

Futuresight posted:

If I knew a thousand black people it would not be enough to speak to the reasons for why all the black people who voted Hillary did so. Also I was not talking about voting for Hillary in the post you quoted. I said exactly this: "The two main reasons Hillary was pushed as better than Bernie". Got nothing to do with voting, just about the people pushing her. I did this because I know what reasons they had for voting for her because they gave them.

rudatron posted:

But we're not arguing if the internment was justified. A particularly dumb hillshill tried to equivocate between Clinton's house slaves and internment. That was not a valid comparison.

Why do you keep melting down? Why do you feel so bitter?

Futuresight posted:

If I knew a thousand black people it would not be enough to speak to the reasons for why all the black people who voted Hillary did so. Also I was not talking about voting for Hillary in the post you quoted. I said exactly this: "The two main reasons Hillary was pushed as better than Bernie". Got nothing to do with voting, just about the people pushing her. I did this because I know what reasons they had for voting for her because they gave them.

quote:

Kenneth Finch, 49, of Ladera Heights said his beliefs align with Sanders, but fears he doesn’t have the support to win in a match against the Republican nominee, Donald Trump.

“I like Bernie,” said Finch, as he sat atop his sleek black-and-chrome Yamaha motorcycle. “He has the right idea, but I’m more of a chess player, and any effort to support Bernie at this time point is a vote of Trump.”

Brainiac Five posted:

Okay, so all the stuff about how racist she is is just hyperbolic post-truth poo poo. I guess there's no point in further discussion then.

Brainiac Five posted:

Jesus loving Christ. Why do y'all try to equate chattel slavery with prison labor?

VitalSigns posted:

Exactly. There were a lot of reasons people may have voted for Clinton, for example, some made the same mistake that many of us did in assuming that most Americans are moderate centrists to whom Clinton had wide appeal, and that she was an experienced political operator who would steamroll an inexperienced orange idiot with the greatest technological get-out-the-vote operation the world has ever seen, and therefore voted for her in a lesser-of-two-evils strategy.

NewForumSoftware posted:

No, it just doesn't meet the criteria for super racism. Think more like... this guy

I'm just all about voting for a president who hasn't relied on slave labor in their home. That seems like a reasonable bar to set for ourselves in 2020. It's not so much that Hillary Clinton was beyond the pale racist, it's more that she's failed to apologize for these things and probably never will.

VitalSigns posted:

Because the postbellum prison labor system in the United States and especially the former Confederacy was designed deliberately to be the continuation of African American chattel slavery under another name.

Brainiac Five posted:

Good luck finding someone who hasn't relied on products of prison labor, though! That's an interesting bar to set, because it's not actually attainable and so it allows you to attack any candidate you don't approve of for other reasons.

Brainiac Five posted:

The point here is that you're saying Clinton is extremely racist, so the question of why people voted to have her do more racism on them is open.

Unless, like NFS, you're willing to admit that those posts are all bullshit meant to lash out at people, in which case I have to say I'll be spending the next day laughing at all your self-righteous posts about me then.

Brainiac Five posted:

Good luck finding someone who hasn't relied on products of prison labor, though!

NewForumSoftware posted:

No, like the slave labor takes place in their home. Not many people have that these days. Like I think it's a worthy distinction between a mailman who's uniform was made by a prisoner and Hillary Clinton having a slave make her dinner but I guess not if you're you?

VitalSigns posted:

There are a million reasons to vote for Hillary Clinton despite her enthusiastic embrace of the South's ""peculiar institution"". For example, the (mistaken) belief that she was more likely to win the general and therefore voting for her is the smart tactical choice for the lesser-of-two-slavery-lovers. You cannot generalize the feelings of all black people from the minority of America's black population that voted in the primaries and voted for her.

VitalSigns posted:

Is that a cotton shirt you're wearing, Mr Lincoln?

Brainiac Five posted:

Ah, so white people are free from ever experiencing prison labor?

rudatron posted:

But we're not arguing if the internment was justified. A particularly dumb hillshill tried to equivocate between Clinton's house slaves and internment. That was not a valid comparison.

rudatron posted:

FDR died like 70 years ago, was a great statesman who made a lot of positive changes. Internment wasn't great, but in the context of the time wasn't that noticeable.

VitalSigns posted:

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Okay Bill O'Reilly. The US justice system can't be racist because white prisoners exist, you've defeated the lying ess-jay-dubbelyoos

Brainiac Five posted:

Okay, so your argument is that black people didn't care about her huuuge levels of racism because they're all super tactical voters. It seems to me that you are trying to avoid the conclusion that people disagreed with you about her level of racism in ways that you can't immediately dismiss, and that they did so in large enough numbers that you can''t write them off as mentally inferior.

VitalSigns posted:

Black Hillary primary voters are a minority of all black people in the USA, and interviews with them reveal a wide range of reasons that they voted for her.

Stop lumping all black people into a hive mind.

Brainiac Five posted:

A good start for this argument would be for you two to lay out the lawmaking powers of being the wife of the Governor of Arkansas that would allow Hillary Clinton to pardon the prisoners or bar prison labor from being used.

JeffersonClay posted:

Right, because the Japanese internment was much worse than a few dozen prisoners serving life sentences volunteering to work in the governor's mansion. Incomparably worse.

Here's you attempting to whitewash internment, again:

Brainiac Five posted:

And what exactly could she have done about it?

Futuresight posted:

She could have talked to her husband about it and told him she thought it was wrong? She could have refused to live in the mansion while it used prison slaves? I mean, between being married to her, loving her, and not wanting it to blow up and become a thing affecting his future election chances, I feel like Bill probably would have done something about it if she had actually objected strongly to it.