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Jagchosis posted:Cut and run. Or, if the U.S. has to feel like it's doing something, provide a lot of support to refugees, probably protect the minority groups that are likely to genocided and let ISIS rule over its stupid Sunni shithole nightmare state. It is just hard to conceive of any action the U.S. could take that would defeat ISIS and also doesn't create another generation of radical militants.
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Oct 25, 2014 15:21
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CharlestheHammer posted:Right those villagers deserve to die. One crime deserves another. He didn't say it was right, he said it was a natural, human reaction that shouldn't surprise anyone. Edit: I think the point is that you have to take this in context. Killing in revenge, while obviously wrong, is different from killing because someone is the wrong religion, in the same way that premeditated murder is different from a "crime of passion." Blue Footed Booby fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Oct 25, 2014 |
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Oct 25, 2014 15:31
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Blue Footed Booby posted:He didn't say it was right, he said it was a natural, human reaction that shouldn't surprise anyone. Then it was a pointless statement? I am sure they felt what they were doing was right, a lot of people do, doesn't mean jack poo poo. I guess ethnic cleansing/genocide is okay as long as you mean it in a "human way" (what does that mean?).
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Oct 25, 2014 15:33
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Blue Footed Booby posted:He didn't say it was right, he said it was a natural, human reaction that shouldn't surprise anyone. Which is the same thing the daesh recruiter interviewed by der Spiegel says.
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Oct 25, 2014 15:34
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CSM posted:I wonder whether the extremist religious guys would even last all that long in a sufficiently consolidated ISIS state. Wouldn't the tribal leaders/the old Saddam guard just pretty quickly mount a night of the long knives against their former allies, after getting fed up with their bullshit? That pretty much happened already with the Sunni Awakening, and that loving retard Maliki thanked them by completely shutting Sunnis out of the government. They'll probably be reluctant to do that again
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Oct 25, 2014 15:35
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SedanChair posted:Which is the same thing the daesh recruiter interviewed by der Spiegel says. I never said it was an insightful post, I'm just tired of dumb "so you're saying ethnic cleansing is OK?!" posts. No, no one is saying that. Whatever dumb or pointless posts they make no one is saying that poo poo is good, so it'd be great if folks wouldn't start slap fights.
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Oct 25, 2014 15:38
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CharlestheHammer posted:Right those villagers deserve to die. One crime deserves another. Too be fair that report doesn't indicate that the pesh killed the villagers, just that they burned the town to the ground - there have been a couple of other accusations of Sunni villages being sacked as collective punishment for 'supporting' ISIS. Not that its excusable or anything. Arab/Kurd relations have never been pretty in Iraq and the usual atmosphere of anti-Arab sentiment in Kurdistan has only got worse after reports that tribal authorities were pitching in with ISIS. To some Kurds forcing Arabs out of the disrupted zones is a justified reversal of Arabization (just to explain the mentality).
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Oct 25, 2014 15:38
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ascendance posted:Given the kinds of statements made on this forum, by people who have minimal stake in the conflict (especially recently in the Canadian politics thread), is it any surprise that the Kurds, who have actually have had kin murdered and raped by Daash, might not be taking prisoners?
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Oct 25, 2014 15:40
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Blue Footed Booby posted:I never said it was an insightful post, I'm just tired of dumb "so you're saying ethnic cleansing is OK?!" posts. No, no one is saying that. Whatever dumb or pointless posts they make no one is saying that poo poo is good, so it'd be great if folks wouldn't start slap fights. You are wrong tho. He was actively playing it down. Hope that helps. kustomkarkommando posted:Too be fair that report doesn't indicate that the pesh killed the villagers, just that they burned the town to the ground - there have been a couple of other accusations of Sunni villages being sacked as collective punishment for 'supporting' ISIS. Not that its excusable or anything. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Oct 25, 2014 |
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Oct 25, 2014 15:41
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ascendance posted:Given the kinds of statements made on this forum, by people who have minimal stake in the conflict (especially recently in the Canadian politics thread), is it any surprise that the Kurds, who have actually have had kin murdered and raped by Daash, might not be taking prisoners? Not at all, and to hold a group of fighters who have experienced the savagery of these savages above the pedestal that America sits on, with its private paramilitary murderers and 60,000 ft remote-control children bombers, merely underscores the inherent hypocrisy in the foundations of US intervention. After we all finish celebrating the birth of a non-existent white god man, it's just a hop and a skip to signing our checks for next year's budget of death machines. i am harry fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Oct 25, 2014 |
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Oct 25, 2014 15:51
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CSM posted:Given the kinds of statements made on this forum, by people who have minimal stake in the conflict (especially recently in the Canadian politics thread), is it any surprise that the ISIS, who have actually have had kin murdered and raped by Kurds and Shia, might not be taking prisoners? Edit: And yes, Americans and British have historically been some of the most bloodthirsty people on the planet. That's how you maintain an empire. Edit2: My support for the Kurds is entirely predicated on the fact that they are not trying to establish a religious fundamentalist state. Sure, they do a lot of bad poo poo, but they are a major step up from the opposition. Rather like why I would vote Democrat over Republican if I lived in America. ascendance fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Oct 25, 2014 |
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Oct 25, 2014 16:50
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How on earth are people still saying "Sure, they do a lot of bad poo poo, but at least they're not [x] and that's why they need our guns" in The Year Of Our Lord 2014?
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Oct 25, 2014 17:03
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ascendance posted:Edit2: My support for the Kurds is entirely predicated on the fact that they are not trying to establish a religious fundamentalist state. Sure, they do a lot of bad poo poo, but they are a major step up from the opposition. Rather like why I would vote Democrat over Republican if I lived in America. This isn't a compelling reason to throw infinite guns and money at them, I think.
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Oct 25, 2014 17:03
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My support for the 1980s Mujahideen is entirely predicated on the fact that they are not trying to establish a Russian-backed secular socialist state. Sure, they do a lot of bad poo poo, but they are a major step up from the opposition. Rather like why I would vote Democrat over Republican if I lived in America
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Oct 25, 2014 17:05
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CharlestheHammer posted:I know that yeah, that is why I don't exactly see why supporting the Kurds is a good thing. They are just as willing to be bloodthirsty as their opponents for similar dumb reasons, they just don't have the ability to at the moment. What are the alternatives? Do nothing? Support Daesh? The Kurds also aren't monolithic. The crimes of one group shouldn't be used to throw opprobrium on all of them; not when Daesh's crimes are worse. Iraqi Kurds swore to protect minorities like the Yazidis and the Assyrians. It might have been for PR purposes with the West, but they did commit what they could to defend Mt. Sinjar. One shouldn't be blind to their fault and certainly we need to exert what pressure we can to force them to exert restraint with regards to civilian populations, but they're still the least bad group in the area. And it's not like US troops were particularly innocent in Iraq either. To some extent, I wonder if the risk of events like those are why the USA only provide training on how to defend villages, rather than on how to retake territory...
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Oct 25, 2014 17:11
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Cat Mattress posted:What are the alternatives? Do nothing? drat straight. We shouldn't be putting out noses in other peoples problems to begin with, especially if our only contribution is making killing people easier. I don't care what arbitrary grading system you use to judge who is worse, it doesn't loving matter. Edit: Sometimes there are no good guys is more to point, I suppose. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Oct 25, 2014 |
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Oct 25, 2014 17:13
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The most important thing is to make sure we don't fall into the same trap where we assume that just because we have the same enemies as a group of people they're exactly like us or interested in the same things we are. The Kurds don't necessarily stand for pluralism, secularism, Truth, Justice, And the American Way. Like anyone, their ideologies run the gamut, and assuming they're just like us (or want the same things we do) so we should support them uncritically is basically the same way we got into the hole with the Mujahadeen. They have different interests.
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Oct 25, 2014 17:14
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tatankatonk posted:My support for the 1980s Mujahideen is entirely predicated on the fact that they are not trying to establish a Russian-backed secular socialist state. Sure, they do a lot of bad poo poo, but they are a major step up from the opposition. Rather like why I would vote Democrat over Republican if I lived in America Let's examine this analogy a little more closely. Does it mean you think that the Kurds will immediately turn on the West after securing victory? Are they secret fundamentalists biding their time? Or is it that they do bad things sometimes, much like the mujahideen and virtually every other armed group in human history, and none of the sides deserve our backing?
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Oct 25, 2014 17:21
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I felt like leaving out Italian Fascism, since it is a different beast from Nazism, as well as Iberian and Japanese Fascisms. Like anything else, they are syncretic movements. But since it is kind of the odd-man-out (and also the one with which I am least familiar), I was OK making an overly broad statement. So, the thesis could be refined to either "Radical Islam is a romantic movement like Nazism, Iberian and Japanese Fascism" or "Radical Islam shares, in common with all Fascist movements of the 20th Century, a respect for violence as an act in-and-of-itself." Violence as a symbol of mastery (as opposed to violence being an unfortunate side-effect or crude method for obtaining mastery) is a major philosophical strand through all these movements. It would appear that there is something in the human psyche (and most specifically, the young male psyche) that finds violence very appealing.
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Oct 25, 2014 17:24
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CharlestheHammer posted:drat straight. If the mid-case outcome from supporting the Kurds is a slightly more religiously tolerant Libya-style tribal anarchy region and the mid-case from not doing it is literally mass crucifixions posted on Youtube, you know what, for once there's actually a greater evil and I'm okay with arbitrarily grading it as such.
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Oct 25, 2014 17:32
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Phlegmish posted:Let's examine this analogy a little more closely. Does it mean you think that the Kurds will immediately turn on the West after securing victory? Are they secret fundamentalists biding their time? Or is it that they do bad things sometimes, much like the mujahideen and virtually every other armed group in human history, and none of the sides deserve our backing? This in a nutshell is the dispute over the tanker full of Kurdish oil -- exported independently from Baghdad -- that's been sitting off Galveston for the past three months. The U.S. doesn't want to buy the oil (and the Iraqi government is saying not to) because that would set a precedent and underwrite an independent Kurdistan's economic future. But we're also giving the Kurds weapons to further their aspirations. Not saying we shouldn't support the Kurds. But they do have their own agendas. Shbobdb posted:It would appear that there is something in the human psyche (and most specifically, the young male psyche) that finds violence very appealing. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Oct 25, 2014 |
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Oct 25, 2014 17:33
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Adar posted:If the mid-case outcome from supporting the Kurds is a slightly more religiously tolerant Libya-style tribal anarchy region and the mid-case from not doing it is literally mass crucifixions posted on Youtube, you know what, for once there's actually a greater evil and I'm okay with arbitrarily grading it as such. Whatever makes you feel better, I suppose. I don't know why it does, but whatevs. edit: Though that does highlight the problem with this, its all about what makes me feel better, drat the consequences.
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Oct 25, 2014 17:33
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Has the war crime allegations been reported in the English language yet?
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Oct 25, 2014 17:38
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CharlestheHammer posted:Whatever makes you feel better, I suppose. The West is full of nation states trying to impose nation-statehood on loose tribal confederations. As it turns out this doesn't actually work anymore and the results are staggeringly bad. Fine. The Kurds are somewhere between marginally and significantly better than everybody else in their neighborhood but are by no means "Canada" and possibly not even "Israel". Also fine. But they'd have to kill a hell of a lot of puppies to live up to the standards of the dudes playing football with severed heads and filming it for recruitment videos. There has got to be some middle ground between being justifiably cynical about the ability of the West to affect long term positive change and "those Yazidis didn't want their families anyway".
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Oct 25, 2014 17:44
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If you assume the kurds are somehow better I guess that works. I am not judging them by the west or whatever I am judging them by what they have done and what they are likely to do. I also dislike playing kingmaker, but that seems like a lost cause. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Oct 25, 2014 |
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Oct 25, 2014 17:46
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Cat Mattress posted:What are the alternatives? Do nothing? Support Daesh? Has the strategy of arming and funding ISIS to fight Assad not turned out to be a bad one in retrospect, even if the alternative was "doing nothing"?
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Oct 25, 2014 17:57
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Ayatollah Mahdavi-Kani died. Iran's version of Lavrentiy Beria. quote:The Iranian regime last week lost one of its leading clerical authorities. Ayatollah Mohammad Reza Mahdavi-Kani died while in a months-long coma on Tuesday, at age 83. He was one of many cruel figures catapulted to power by Iran’s 1979 revolution—a Shiite Torquemada who oversaw the Islamic Republic’s early orgies of bloodletting, and who engineered the regime’s crackdown against religious minorities. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Oct 25, 2014 |
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Oct 25, 2014 18:02
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Adar posted:If the mid-case outcome from supporting the Kurds is a slightly more religiously tolerant Libya-style tribal anarchy region and the mid-case from not doing it is literally mass crucifixions posted on Youtube, you know what, for once there's actually a greater evil and I'm okay with arbitrarily grading it as such. How are things in Libya these days anyway?
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Oct 25, 2014 18:26
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Omi-Polari posted:Ayatollah Mahdavi-Kani died: Good, too bad he didn't die in prison though. Adar posted:If the mid-case outcome from supporting the Kurds is a slightly more religiously tolerant Libya-style tribal anarchy region and the mid-case from not doing it is literally mass crucifixions posted on Youtube, you know what, for once there's actually a greater evil and I'm okay with arbitrarily grading it as such. Agreed. Thankfully the people bitching here about how you can't pick between two 'evils' (though I personally don't have much of a problem with that Kurdish unit did) aren't the type who can create or steer policy. I'm guessing that if this was the 40s they'd be screaming about how we should just cancel lend-lease to the Soviets because of how they treated Einzatsgruppen.
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Oct 25, 2014 18:35
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Cat Mattress posted:What are the alternatives? Do nothing? Support Daesh? Pressure allies to avoid this kind of bullshit, and threaten to stop airstrikes/arms if they persist. I mean, support was used as leverage to get rid of Maliki and have a less Shia-supremacist Iraqi government, it should be used here for similar ends. There's no happy ending if the Kurds end up winning just to create anti-Kurd anatagonism and ISIS 2.0 which will haunt the region 5-10 years from now.
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Oct 25, 2014 18:39
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Vernii posted:
What is your endgame, since its obvious you are more into this for reprisals then anything else what do you hope to accomplish? Completely wiping out of the Arabs? Also are you Kurdish or something? That is the only way I can figure out why you are into reprisals so much. Edit: Also you compared them to Stalin and you meant that favorably, what is wrong with you? CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Oct 25, 2014 |
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Oct 25, 2014 18:44
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Man Whore posted:Has the war crime allegations been reported in the English language yet? The Dutch one is the first substantial claim I've seen, I've seen some piecemeal tweets/dodgy reports focusing on reprisals targeting Sunni's in Saladin province (where the Peshmerga have joint control with Shia militias which makes accusing the Peshmerga directly a bit harder, Reuters did a piece on this and firmly pointed the finger at the Shia militias) and some un-sourced claims about reprisals in Nineveh as well. There have been some very detailed reports done on the dodgy situation in Makhmour and Gwer were the Peshmerga have been accused of blocking the return of Arab refugees, with some accusing them of conducting an indirect campaign of ethnic cleansing (the pesh insist it is for security purposes): http://projects.aljazeera.com/2014/green-mosque-road/ https://news.vice.com/article/we-will-kill-them-as-soon-as-the-cameras-arent-here-anti-arab-sentiment-on-rise-in-iraqi-kurdistan Vice posted:On a tattered sofa in courtyard of a base which IS had briefly occupied, one grizzled peshmerga fighter smoked cigarettes in the harsh sunlight and calmly explained to VICE News that he and others would like to expel all Arabs from the region in the most ruthless way possible. kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Oct 25, 2014 |
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Oct 25, 2014 18:51
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Yeah, the Kurds are going to be committing atrocities as well. The big difference is that the Kurdish strategic objectives are not, you know, inherently hostile to civilisation and life. ISIL's mostly are. Like, this is a civil war. There's going to be hideous poo poo going on even at the best of times. It's the nature of the thing.
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Oct 25, 2014 18:57
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V. Illych L. posted:Yeah, the Kurds are going to be committing atrocities as well. The big difference is that the Kurdish strategic objectives are not, you know, inherently hostile to civilisation and life. ISIL's mostly are. I would still expect the US to use its leverage to pressure them away from these actions. If only because of the long-term instability and retributive environment it fosters.
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Oct 25, 2014 18:59
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CharlestheHammer posted:What is your endgame, since its obvious you are more into this for reprisals then anything else what do you hope to accomplish? Completely wiping out of the Arabs? Also are you Kurdish or something? That is the only way I can figure out why you are into reprisals so much. It's not as clear cut as you are trying to make it seem with your sanctimonious responses. When the alternative is actual genocide and sexual slavery, intervention being worse isn't a given.
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Oct 25, 2014 18:59
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Spoke Lee posted:It's not as clear cut as you are trying to make it seem with your sanctimonious responses. When the alternative is actual genocide and sexual slavery, intervention being worse isn't a given. That is the case for whatever the outcome, the only difference is who it is going to happen too. Though that statement was more towards Vernii and his wallowing in the crimes committed by the kurds. Trying to pretend there is some good guy (or less evil its the same thing) is the most sanctimonious thing possible so don't get high and mighty with me.
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Oct 25, 2014 19:03
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Spoke Lee posted:It's not as clear cut as you are trying to make it seem with your sanctimonious responses. When the alternative is actual genocide and sexual slavery, intervention being worse isn't a given. The difference this time is that IS is pretty bad in their own propaganda.
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Oct 25, 2014 19:07
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ascendance posted:I can understand why Charleshammer is cynical, given that we are always told that the alternative is genocide. I mean, in the case of Saddam, the US literally took actions in supporting an uprising to provoke genocide and use of chemical weapons in severe reprisals. ISIS is enthusiastically promoting genocide everywhere. Saddam was just using a tiny fraction of the chemical weapons arsenal the US gave him. Different situations.
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Oct 25, 2014 19:18
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Rosscifer posted:ISIS is enthusiastically promoting genocide everywhere. Saddam was just using a tiny fraction of the chemical weapons arsenal the US gave him. Different situations. What is unique about ISIS is how enthusiastically they show they are bloodthirsty killers. Being westerners, we like to pretend we aren't killers, and we like our murder sanitized and far away. I mean, ISIS talks a lot, but they have thus far killed probably only a tiny fraction of the civilians the US have in their occupation of Iraq. Which might also explain their popularity in Sunni circles. Edit: Or, say, compared to the number of people killed by Israel in their last Gaza campaign.
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Oct 25, 2014 19:27
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ascendance posted:I said I can understand why Charleshammer was cynical, not that I agree with him. They killed less than 2000 civilians?!
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Oct 25, 2014 19:47
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