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VolticSurge
Jul 23, 2013

Just your friendly neighborhood photobomb raptor.



Snooze Cruise posted:

The only bad thing about Char is his clones are taking the rightful place of Jerid clones.

Patrick from Gundam 00 is still my favorite Jerid clone.

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SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.
More Jerid clones is always a good thing. At least Jerid felt bad sometimes about the death around some of his posessive driven accidents.

Or more gag manga where Char is forever lame comedy relief being brutally beaten into the ground.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

The best Jerid clone is Shinn Asuka.

Keeps losing people to the protagonist?
Gets effortlessly wrecked on multiple occasions?
Still somehow presented as a threat?
Gets utterly humiliated in the final battle and then kicked to the side?

Belzac
Mar 20, 2008

The third fracture I would do away with...I can't, sorry.

F R A C T U R E

SeanBeansShako posted:

Sometimes I wonder why he's so drat popular. Again.

Cause The Origin animation has been around for a year and Char has been around for over 35?

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
Because he's a conscious soldier who seems to care for the men under his command, keeps a cool head in battle... and slowly reveals himself to be a complete loving rear end in a top hat opportunist who willingly throws his men and his superiors into unwinnable situations because of his hateboner for the Zabis, being little better than a common thug, only with deadlier weapons.

The GIG
Jun 28, 2011

Yeah, I say "Shit" a shit-ton of times. What of it, shithead?
Because he's cute and I could totally fix him and make him not bad

The GIG
Jun 28, 2011

Yeah, I say "Shit" a shit-ton of times. What of it, shithead?
Just kidding, Char isn't even in the top 10 of cute gundam boys

Captain Rufus
Sep 16, 2005

CAPTAIN WORD SALAD

OFF MY MEDS AGAIN PLEASE DON'T USE BIG WORDS

UNNECESSARY LINE BREAK

Arcsquad12 posted:

Because he's a conscious soldier who seems to care for the men under his command, keeps a cool head in battle... and slowly reveals himself to be a complete loving rear end in a top hat opportunist who willingly throws his men and his superiors into unwinnable situations because of his hateboner for the Zabis, being little better than a common thug, only with deadlier weapons.

And even when the Zabis die he still does heinous poo poo in CCA and even tries to outdo Operation British in a scope of mass death and environmental catastrophe. All because RalDad was listening to Space Alex Jones and blamed the death of Char's crazy rear end dad on the Zabis when as far as Origin shows the guy was just unhinged or overworked and probably died due to that and not some plot. And given how IRL there are plenty of Japanese people who pretty much die from overwork without also being crazy and a major political movement leader? Yeah. poo poo, RalDad could have been the one poisoning him. Or Anaheim. Or the Feds. The Zabis easily can be blameless here. They just took advantage of the situation. Ideally we will never know for sure which makes it better. That whole GOOD SCI FI thing I have brought up a couple times.

Char is a super douche and has generally always been so. Origin just cements existing evidence. It's just now we know Char is a bigger rear end in a top hat than the main characters in Gundam Wing combined which was an entire series of assholes, nut jobs, and sociopaths that got away with it via being attractive. Except most of them got better and didn't commit as many direct or indirect atrocities as Char did throughout his career as an rear end in a top hat. (If anything Wing's main point seemed to be that men need a good woman behind them otherwise they do lots of awful things. Which is generally true IRL if you think about it.)

Improbable Lobster
Jan 6, 2012

"From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.
Buglord
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erwGXgl5H_c

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

hey look,
a post
I went from liking to loving Char when he was freaking out about piloting a mobile suit with no legs. It was not the reaction i was expecting after him being the "cool" guy for so long.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010




Char's so amazing that you want to high five him and punch him in the same episode. I really dug Quattro and when he got upset over how Haman was using Mineva, I was totally on his side. Then he went and said that poo poo and suddenly I was like gently caress you Char. I always liked Garma and hated MSG Char and he had to go and remind me of that moment by making the dumbest and most blatant lie ever.

Maybe it was intentional. Perhaps it's intended to shows just how crazy he is. Maybe he honestly believes he never betrayed anyone because he's Quattro now.

The GIG posted:

Just kidding, Char isn't even in the top 10 of cute gundam boys

I would legitimately like to see a list of Top 10 Cutest Gundam Boys.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

Captain Rufus posted:

And even when the Zabis die he still does heinous poo poo in CCA and even tries to outdo Operation British in a scope of mass death and environmental catastrophe. All because RalDad was listening to Space Alex Jones and blamed the death of Char's crazy rear end dad on the Zabis when as far as Origin shows the guy was just unhinged or overworked and probably died due to that and not some plot. And given how IRL there are plenty of Japanese people who pretty much die from overwork without also being crazy and a major political movement leader? Yeah. poo poo, RalDad could have been the one poisoning him. Or Anaheim. Or the Feds. The Zabis easily can be blameless here. They just took advantage of the situation. Ideally we will never know for sure which makes it better. That whole GOOD SCI FI thing I have brought up a couple times.

Char is a super douche and has generally always been so. Origin just cements existing evidence. It's just now we know Char is a bigger rear end in a top hat than the main characters in Gundam Wing combined which was an entire series of assholes, nut jobs, and sociopaths that got away with it via being attractive. Except most of them got better and didn't commit as many direct or indirect atrocities as Char did throughout his career as an rear end in a top hat. (If anything Wing's main point seemed to be that men need a good woman behind them otherwise they do lots of awful things. Which is generally true IRL if you think about it.)

To be fair, Jimba may be nuts, but the show does support his crazy theories pretty well. Sasro had a sophisticated propaganda campaign to exploit Deikun's death up and running suspiciously fast, and then his wife also died in a manner that could have been due to natural causes, but was also consistent with slow poison. Degwin having less of a war-boner than Zeon also provides a potential motive - although it could equally have been that the poison was making him irrational, Degwin had nothing to do with it, and his viper's nest of a family was just jockeying hard for power.

It's also interesting to think about what Char would have been like after the One Year War if people hadn't been trying to give him power all the time. Because the original version (as opposed to the Origin version, who I'm not so sure about) seems to be at his happiest and most stable when he's just being a regular mobile suit pilot, and when people try to make him do more, he immediately starts ruining the lives of himself and everyone around him until he can go back to that again. I can't help but feel that if people just left him the hell alone, he'd just potter amiably around blowing poo poo up for vaguely worthy causes and leaving E/N tier relationship drama in his wake (and maybe sending the occasional lewd, drunken text Amuro's way if he ever gets the guy's number). Which isn't all that bad as these things go, really.

Belzac
Mar 20, 2008

The third fracture I would do away with...I can't, sorry.

F R A C T U R E
Gundam The Origin and the rest UC Gundam do not exist in the same continuity so using it's events and characters to explain why you always didn't like Char doesn't make any sense. Char is a cool conflicted character who gives into personal desire and revenge despite knowing he shouldn't and actively wishes for people to stop him. The Origin Char is some serial killer sociopath who does things for no reason.

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

The GIG posted:

Because he's cute and I could totally fix him and make him not bad

And we never saw The GIG again because somehow they died whilst Char ran away.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Belzac posted:

Gundam The Origin and the rest UC Gundam do not exist in the same continuity so using it's events and characters to explain why you always didn't like Char doesn't make any sense. Char is a cool conflicted character who gives into personal desire and revenge despite knowing he shouldn't and actively wishes for people to stop him. The Origin Char is some serial killer sociopath who does things for no reason.

No, the original version of Char is pretty similar to that. A lot of the more conflicted elements of Char come from post-original content like Zeta which softens the character somewhat. Char in the context of just the original Gundam is honestly kind of a complete poo poo and the only thing that really varies is the exact formula of his shittery. Even then it's basically changing the scales somewhat. The original Char takes entirely too much pleasure in Garma's death for example, and The Origin Char honestly and genuinely believes in Newtypes and his core mistakes and flaw is that he's unable to get past his own ego enough to see what Lalah and Amuro really are.

The Origin doesn't create a different character. At best it speeds through his characterization because it doesn't assume sequels series. (Though it takes from them, which is why the Al Aboa Qu fight contains elements of CCA Char vs Amuro.) However Television Char, Novel Char and Origin Char all basically agree on the fundamental "this dude a poo poo" aspect.

The Origin goes a bit overboard on Char at times but I understand why. Char's fandom are people who (partially aided by the other content) kind of whitewash how much of an rear end in a top hat Char is in the OYW and end up creating this noble conflicted figure out of a guy whose fundamental idea is that he is broken and who (prior to the movie retconning it) is last seen seemingly suiciding himself to kill a Zabi, something which the Origin sticks to.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

ImpAtom posted:

No, the original version of Char is pretty similar to that. A lot of the more conflicted elements of Char come from post-original content like Zeta which softens the character somewhat. Char in the context of just the original Gundam is honestly kind of a complete poo poo and the only thing that really varies is the exact formula of his shittery. Even then it's basically changing the scales somewhat. The original Char takes entirely too much pleasure in Garma's death for example, and The Origin Char honestly and genuinely believes in Newtypes and his core mistakes and flaw is that he's unable to get past his own ego enough to see what Lalah and Amuro really are.

The Origin doesn't create a different character. At best it speeds through his characterization because it doesn't assume sequels series. (Though it takes from them, which is why the Al Aboa Qu fight contains elements of CCA Char vs Amuro.) However Television Char, Novel Char and Origin Char all basically agree on the fundamental "this dude a poo poo" aspect.

The Origin goes a bit overboard on Char at times but I understand why. Char's fandom are people who (partially aided by the other content) kind of whitewash how much of an rear end in a top hat Char is in the OYW and end up creating this noble conflicted figure out of a guy whose fundamental idea is that he is broken and who (prior to the movie retconning it) is last seen seemingly suiciding himself to kill a Zabi, something which the Origin sticks to.

I think it's worth remembering that those other parts of the UC saga are still sections in the story of Char, though. You can make a reasonable argument that since The Origin came out after and was informed by the whole story, it should include not only what makes Char a cold, murderous rear end, but also some of the more positive elements that resulted in him almost saving the solar system. Sure, he ended up in a bad place during the time period it covers, but you can at least sow the seeds for more redeeming elements (like, say, giving him some genuine friendships that don't end in him murdering said friend in order to foreshadow his relationship with Kamille). Char is a weird, broken person who was almost entirely incapable of heroism, and yet he briefly managed to be one of the solar system's greatest and truest heroes regardless. You can't really sell his tragedy without showing the genuine value he could - and sometimes does - bring to humanity before falling back into his various awful habits.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Darth Walrus posted:

I think it's worth remembering that those other parts of the UC saga are still sections in the story of Char, though. You can make a reasonable argument that since The Origin came out after and was informed by the whole story, it should include not only what makes Char a cold, murderous rear end, but also some of the more positive elements that resulted in him almost saving the solar system. Sure, he ended up in a bad place during the time period it covers, but you can at least sow the seeds for more redeeming elements (like, say, giving him some genuine friendships that don't end in him murdering said friend in order to foreshadow his relationship with Kamille). Char is a weird, broken person who was almost entirely incapable of heroism, and yet he briefly managed to be one of the solar system's greatest and truest heroes regardless. You can't really sell his tragedy without showing the genuine value he could - and sometimes does - bring to humanity before falling back into his various awful habits.

It does that though, with his Newtype fixation. However like everything else it makes sure you understand Char has a good ideal filtered through his own personal broken lens. The Origin Char really genuinely wholeheartedly believes in Newtypes and believes they are the future, and his relationship with Lalah is informed by that. He isn't faking it, and he intentionally reflects upon his charismatic father who genuinely believed in this ideal of humanity. However like his father he's vulnerable to his own humanity. His belief in Newtypes is not able to extend far enough to the idea that he himself could not be the cream of this chosen crop.

Char is his father's son. He has the power and the potential to change the world but he's unable to go beyond himself. This is also true of the original Char. CCA Char is attempting to perform a grand action which he genuinely believes is necessary for humanity and the furthering of Newtypes and even of Earth itself... and then he can't get over his boner to duel Amuro enough to focus on his plan instead of having his grand dramatic finish with Amuro. Everything Char does is him taking action for a 'greater good' that is fundamentally undercut by the fact that he's doing it in a way that happens to be tainted by his inability to not want to do it in the way that personally satisfies himself.

The Origin Char doesn't do things 'for no reason.' Almost every truly cruel and sociopathic action is one with a sensible outcome for his goals that also happens to satisfy the little monster inside Char and there are times when satisfying that little monster actually conflicts with his goal.

Darth Walrus
Feb 13, 2012

ImpAtom posted:

It does that though, with his Newtype fixation. However like everything else it makes sure you understand Char has a good ideal filtered through his own personal broken lens. The Origin Char really genuinely wholeheartedly believes in Newtypes and believes they are the future, and his relationship with Lalah is informed by that. He isn't faking it, and he intentionally reflects upon his charismatic father who genuinely believed in this ideal of humanity. However like his father he's vulnerable to his own humanity. His belief in Newtypes is not able to extend far enough to the idea that he himself could not be the cream of this chosen crop.

Char is his father's son. He has the power and the potential to change the world but he's unable to go beyond himself. This is also true of the original Char. CCA Char is attempting to perform a grand action which he genuinely believes is necessary for humanity and the furthering of Newtypes and even of Earth itself... and then he can't get over his boner to duel Amuro enough to focus on his plan instead of having his grand dramatic finish with Amuro. Everything Char does is him taking action for a 'greater good' that is fundamentally undercut by the fact that he's doing it in a way that happens to be tainted by his inability to not want to do it in the way that personally satisfies himself.

The Origin Char doesn't do things 'for no reason.' Almost every truly cruel and sociopathic action is one with a sensible outcome for his goals that also happens to satisfy the little monster inside Char and there are times when satisfying that little monster actually conflicts with his goal.

No, I mean moments of actual decency by a guy who's not very good at it but is trying to be better, not moments of a warped worldview occasionally pushing someone in the right direction. Char in Zeta does appear to make a sincere effort to be a better person - he just fails in important ways, and eventually gets dragged down both by his own past and by the general harshness and unfairness of the world. He can only be a good person by locking his past away ('I have never betrayed anyone in my life', hanging onto 'Quattro Bajeena' long after it's stopped fooling everyone else, that confrontation in the theatre at the end), but there's this odd self-awareness in his insistence that he's not someone you want in charge, and when he finally is forced into power, he damned well knuckles down and delivers. And then he fails, and stops trying altogether.

I think the idea that Char was entirely a cold, ruthless schemer driven entirely by ideals and grudges does a great disservice to his character. He's capable of connecting with people on a human level, and has some genuine interest in doing so - he's just really bad at it, and lives in a universe where mistakes get punished hard.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Darth Walrus posted:

No, I mean moments of actual decency by a guy who's not very good at it but is trying to be better, not moments of a warped worldview occasionally pushing someone in the right direction. Char in Zeta does appear to make a sincere effort to be a better person - he just fails in important ways, and eventually gets dragged down both by his own past and by the general harshness and unfairness of the world. He can only be a good person by locking his past away ('I have never betrayed anyone in my life', hanging onto 'Quattro Bajeena' long after it's stopped fooling everyone else, that confrontation in the theatre at the end), but there's this odd self-awareness in his insistence that he's not someone you want in charge, and when he finally is forced into power, he damned well knuckles down and delivers. And then he fails, and stops trying altogether.

I think the idea that Char was entirely a cold, ruthless schemer driven entirely by ideals and grudges does a great disservice to his character. He's capable of connecting with people on a human level, and has some genuine interest in doing so - he's just really bad at it, and lives in a universe where mistakes get punished hard.

I don't think he is. It is what makes him a failure as a Newtype, not some sort of generic newtype power ranking. Quattro is the closest he can come and as you point out Quattro is him hiding. It's absolutely him trying not to be Char Aznable but that isn't entirely him being a 'better person.' It's him refusing to put himself into positions where he can be anything but a common soldier. It's why he keeps getting called on it and why the general transparency of his disguise is kind of pathetic. Char can have genuine moments of empathy and care, he's not a cartoonishly evil guy like Yazan or whatever. Sayla alone in the original series shows that, he really does care about his sister.

And he isn't a cold ruthless schemer driven entirely by ideals. If he was he wouldn't do what he does. The dark secret of Char is that he's honestly kind of petty and egotistical. It is why he falls so deeply into the act of being Char the Ace.

Monaghan
Dec 29, 2006

NikkolasKing posted:

Char's so amazing that you want to high five him and punch him in the same episode. I really dug Quattro and when he got upset over how Haman was using Mineva, I was totally on his side. Then he went and said that poo poo and suddenly I was like gently caress you Char. I always liked Garma and hated MSG Char and he had to go and remind me of that moment by making the dumbest and most blatant lie ever.

I always thought that Char never betrayed anyone who he actually considered a friend. From when he first met Garma in the academy, I always imagined him plotting a way to use and/or kill Garma.

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?

Belzac posted:

Gundam The Origin and the rest UC Gundam do not exist in the same continuity so using it's events and characters to explain why you always didn't like Char doesn't make any sense. Char is a cool conflicted character who gives into personal desire and revenge despite knowing he shouldn't and actively wishes for people to stop him. The Origin Char is some serial killer sociopath who does things for no reason.

Even if they don't exist in the same "canon", The Origin is informed by what has come before and makes efforts to stick to what is already established about the characters. Besides, getting hung up on canon is a quick way to ruin the enjoyment of a series.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Monaghan posted:

I always thought that Char never betrayed anyone who he actually considered a friend. From when he first met Garma in the academy, I always imagined him plotting a way to use and/or kill Garma.

I think the biggest tragedy about Char and Garma is that Char did consider Garma a friend. He's just not someone who is unwilling to kill a friend for his goals. (Various Giren's Greed/errata stuff basically assumes that if Char could have kept his hateboner under control Garma would have gone all-in on being his ally.) It's a relationship you see mirrored with McGillis and Galieo in IBO.

Lalah is a similar situation. She is at once a tool and weapon for him and someone he genuinely cared for and the former ends up destroying the latter despite his best attempts. It's arguable that everyone Char cares for is like that, even someone like Kamille. The exception is probably Sayla who does her very best to just get the hell away from her brother and his schemes once the OYW was done and who Char basically goes "hey, yeah, get away from me" to and never attempts to drag back into action.

DamnGlitch
Sep 2, 2004

I still wonder what effect Sayla would have in UC if, you know, she hadn't been written out because of VA availability. One of the things I really enjoy about Origin is that she's on the stage again in some capacity.

Belzac
Mar 20, 2008

The third fracture I would do away with...I can't, sorry.

F R A C T U R E

ImpAtom posted:

No, the original version of Char is pretty similar to that. A lot of the more conflicted elements of Char come from post-original content like Zeta which softens the character somewhat. Char in the context of just the original Gundam is honestly kind of a complete poo poo and the only thing that really varies is the exact formula of his shittery. Even then it's basically changing the scales somewhat. The original Char takes entirely too much pleasure in Garma's death for example, and The Origin Char honestly and genuinely believes in Newtypes and his core mistakes and flaw is that he's unable to get past his own ego enough to see what Lalah and Amuro really are.

The Origin doesn't create a different character. At best it speeds through his characterization because it doesn't assume sequels series. (Though it takes from them, which is why the Al Aboa Qu fight contains elements of CCA Char vs Amuro.) However Television Char, Novel Char and Origin Char all basically agree on the fundamental "this dude a poo poo" aspect.

The Origin goes a bit overboard on Char at times but I understand why. Char's fandom are people who (partially aided by the other content) kind of whitewash how much of an rear end in a top hat Char is in the OYW and end up creating this noble conflicted figure out of a guy whose fundamental idea is that he is broken and who (prior to the movie retconning it) is last seen seemingly suiciding himself to kill a Zabi, something which the Origin sticks to.

I always got the impression from Char in MSG that he was conflicted with his seemingly honest respect for and from his underlings and his need for revenge. Every time he's not in proximity to a Zabi he does nothing to further his goal of revenge and does everything in his power to see his men make it through every mission and often puts himself in the front. When he finds Lalah he even drops his quest for revenge so much so that he acts meek coward in front of Kycilia. After that he drops everything to get revenge on Amuro. He has to be reminded of his real intentions at the end because he's become so lost. He's really only an rear end in a top hat in one part of all of MSG and that's specifically to Garma.

Plus he has super cute moments like being cocky about the Federations new weapon not mattering if it can't hit you and then after watching the RX-78 take out a Zaku 2 in a single shot he becomes terrified of it like a cat of lightning.

Arcsquad12 posted:

Even if they don't exist in the same "canon", The Origin is informed by what has come before and makes efforts to stick to what is already established about the characters. Besides, getting hung up on canon is a quick way to ruin the enjoyment of a series.

Oh for sure, I'm not advocating for a canon war with The Origin but it's also a take on a character made by Tomino, processed through a mangaka's original take on the character, and then reprocessed back into an anime by that mangaka and a different director. So to me, saying that The Origin animation Char is the same character just don't parse. And yes I know he was involved in the MSG character design but it's still very much an original take on an established character and for me it doesn't personally re-write my understanding of the Char Aznable of times gone by.

Belzac fucked around with this message at 04:23 on Nov 23, 2016

Raxivace
Sep 9, 2014

It's still super weird to me that Sayla pops up in ZZ.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Belzac posted:

I always got the impression from Char in MSG that he was conflicted with his seemingly honest respect for and from his underlings and his need for revenge. Every time he's not in proximity to a Zabi he does nothing to further his goal of revenge and does everything in his power to see his men make it through every mission and often puts himself in the front. When he finds Lalah he even drops his quest for revenge so much so that he acts meek coward in front of Kycilia. After that he drops everything to get revenge on Amuro. He has to be reminded of his real intentions at the end because he's become so lost. He's really only an rear end in a top hat in one part of all of MSG and that's specifically to Garma.

Plus he has super cute moments like being cocky about the Federations new weapon not mattering if it can't hit you and then after watching the RX-78 take out a Zaku 2 in a single shot he becomes terrified of it like a cat of lightning.

Char puts himself in the front because he's got an ego the size of a battleship. It's an explicit plot point he doesn't wear normal suits because he genuinely doesn't believe he's in any danger. (And likewise a plot point that he wears one for the final battle because his ego has taken a huge bruising. It's also the only time he doesn't pilot his bright red attention-grabbing robot.) He isn't getting off on the idea of his underlings dying or anything but he's also perfectly willing to spend them if it completes his mission. He does absolutely get into the role of being a soldier but that's what I mean about him having those divided loyalties. He has Goals and he has What Char Likes and the two conflict and undermine each other. He can't just become a soldier because of his Zabi hateboner and legitimate desire to see Zeon purged and he can't successfully purge Zeon because he keeps getting sidetracked by other poo poo.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010



I thought Char didn't wear those lifesuits because he didn't care if he lived or died. To say Char is an egomaniac is true enough but he also seems to have a fair bit of self-loathing in there, too. Lalah actually cared for him and wanted him to live so he complied with her wishes but up until that point he was fine with being space debris if he ever lost a battle.

That was my interpretation anyway.

But Char does have a huge problem balancing his objectives. He was all ready to abandon his righteous vengeance upon the Zabis because of Lalah. He had her so he didn't feel the need to avenge his father.

Belzac
Mar 20, 2008

The third fracture I would do away with...I can't, sorry.

F R A C T U R E
Grabbed this quickly from Episode 36 of MSG. This is Char's stated reason to Mulligan so it might be taken with a grain of salt.

muike
Mar 16, 2011

ガチムチ セブン
He's cocky, and not completely unjustifiably, thinks no one can shoot him down. That's why he gets so obsessed with Amuro and White Base.

brainwrinkle
Oct 18, 2009

What's going on in here?
Buglord

Raxivace posted:

It's still super weird to me that Sayla pops up in ZZ.

It's such clumsy and blatant CCA foreshadowing.

EthanSteele
Nov 18, 2007

I can hear you

NikkolasKing posted:

Maybe it was intentional. Perhaps it's intended to shows just how crazy he is. Maybe he honestly believes he never betrayed anyone because he's Quattro now.

When a character calls him out on that he says that he's never betrayed anyone because he's never been on anyone's side but his own. Its intential to show that he is not a good person.

Kamille is 110% a tool for Char because of his ultra magic baby status but that is also what makes Char care about him or (more likely) what Kamille represents for his father and his life's work. Char is a weaker newtype than Amuro because he is too self centred and egotistical to truly understand others, he has flashes and glimpses but the best friend he ever had in his life is the 16 year old boy he tries to murder repeatedly so he can look cool so the people he wants to murder will let their guard down. The closest he gets to a romantic relationship is Nanai who he is only with because she can give him all the hottest info on the latest magic baby news. He uses, abuses and is a dysfunctional dude that in the end is torn between wanting someone to stop him and wanting to finally prove that he's the better man than the closest thing he's ever had to a friend. And Amuro only gets that far because Char actually can''t use him as a pawn until he literally holds Earth ransom with an extinction level event to get him to come out and play. Char is a super interesting character and a huge poo poo I like him a lot.

Microcline
Jul 27, 2012

EthanSteele posted:

When a character calls him out on that he says that he's never betrayed anyone because he's never been on anyone's side but his own. Its intential to show that he is not a good person.

Kamille is 110% a tool for Char because of his ultra magic baby status but that is also what makes Char care about him or (more likely) what Kamille represents for his father and his life's work. Char is a weaker newtype than Amuro because he is too self centred and egotistical to truly understand others, he has flashes and glimpses but the best friend he ever had in his life is the 16 year old boy he tries to murder repeatedly so he can look cool so the people he wants to murder will let their guard down. The closest he gets to a romantic relationship is Nanai who he is only with because she can give him all the hottest info on the latest magic baby news. He uses, abuses and is a dysfunctional dude that in the end is torn between wanting someone to stop him and wanting to finally prove that he's the better man than the closest thing he's ever had to a friend. And Amuro only gets that far because Char actually can''t use him as a pawn until he literally holds Earth ransom with an extinction level event to get him to come out and play. Char is a super interesting character and a huge poo poo I like him a lot.

While empathy can occasionally be a side-effect of newtype powers, it doesn't make them any stronger. Newtypes are an arbitrary mutation that's just as likely to produce a Paptimus Scirocco or a Haman Karn as an Amuro Ray.

A theme in Gundam is that the antagonists represent an extreme of idealism or pragmatism while the protagonists gradually learn to temper themselves. Kamille accepts that war won't make him adult, masculine, or not autistic socially awkward, and most of all that it won't usher in an era of newtype understanding that ends war forever.

Char can't accept this and just keeps doubling down until the only thing left to do is exterminate all terrestrial life.

He can't take responsibility for betraying and murdering his friend as part of a revenge plot he half-assed and only completed 40% of, or that his negligence created Haman Karn and Neo Zeon. "I've never betrayed anyone" is something he says entirely for himself, as it's kind of hard for anyone else to believe as he's openly betraying someone as he says it.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009
The entire mainline body of Universal Century shows is one long chronicle of Char's slow descent into insanity, which is part of what makes UC the best timeline.

Improbable Lobster
Jan 6, 2012

"From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.
Buglord
It's really funny to think about how much of a fuckup Char is and how his only friends are people he murdered or tried to murder.

chiasaur11
Oct 22, 2012



Improbable Lobster posted:

It's really funny to think about how much of a fuckup Char is and how his only friends are people he murdered or tried to murder.

To be fair, anime has taught me this is the normal way to make friends.

Arc Hammer
Mar 4, 2013

Got any deathsticks?
It's how heero and zechs became friends.

Improbable Lobster
Jan 6, 2012

"From each according to his ability" said Ares. It sounded like a quotation.
Buglord

Arcsquad12 posted:

It's how heero and zechs became friends.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7SloE7AjqI

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009

Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.
I like the politeness of it all.

Guy Goodbody
Aug 31, 2016

by Nyc_Tattoo
I think one of my favorite things is that Amuro gets thrown out of his chair and spends the Axis Shock, the most heroic moment in the history of the universe, awkwardly climbing over his pilot seat.

At the end of the story, regardless of how much they've grown and changed, Char is still cool and Amuro is still lame

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EthanSteele
Nov 18, 2007

I can hear you

Microcline posted:

While empathy can occasionally be a side-effect of newtype powers, it doesn't make them any stronger. Newtypes are an arbitrary mutation that's just as likely to produce a Paptimus Scirocco or a Haman Karn as an Amuro Ray.

But also the most empathetic are shown to be the most powerful generally? Scirocco and Haman are crazy high on the Newtype scale, but Scirocco definitely loses out to Kamille because they both have a Biosensor but one can make his robot invincible and the other can't. You could also argue that Scirroco is also incredibly empathetic and thats what allows him to manipulate people so well, because he understands them and what they want and exactly what to do to use them, he's just also a huge poo poo. Haman too for her manipulation factor and a big deal of the ZZ finale is the Judeau comparison and how she could have been like him if not for environmental circumstances. Char is shown to be great at manipulating people, but nowhere near on the level of those two, his is mostly limited to walking into a room of people who hate the Federation and going "lets gently caress the Federation up" and seeing some people are fixing to do a war and leveraging the fact that he is a really good pilot to get their attention versus reading their hopes and dreams and saying the perfect thing which isn't really on the same level as the other two. I was including the non-weaponised Newtype thing, the great communication and understanding definition as a measure of a "weaker" Newtype for that particular angle for why Char feels inferior to Amuro too. I could have been much clearer on that and used a different word. Amuro, at least compared to Char, has lots of friends and comrades and connects with people in a way that Char is never able to and when a major definition of a Newtype is their ability to connect with people that must be devastating to Char.

Obviously thats just my interpretation of stuff and what magic powers being a Newtype actually gives you are all over the place anyway outside of the spatial awareness bit so maybe Scirocco just didn't have the "turn emotions into power output" spell!

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