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Nessus posted:Well he is in a position where nobody wants to be the guy who goes "Yeah gently caress that guy, let's cut him out" I expect. I think it's more that most people don't give a poo poo because it's ~just the internet~ or it's at least not their problem. As much as the idiots hooted about the group that walked out of the Ennies or showed them support, that's some significant star power (for this lame industry) that's basically saying "No, gently caress you." It's just not enough.
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Oct 24, 2015 06:20
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Zak also labels anyone that disagrees with him as an extremist bigot and will make sure to spread that around, and you'll also wind up on his hate list and he'll stalk you for as long as he can keep track of your internet/irl names. So that's another level of discouragement. In fact, he's probably reading this entire convo right now and taking note of everyone mentioning his name
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Oct 24, 2015 06:36
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Plague of Hats posted:I think it's more that most people don't give a poo poo because it's ~just the internet~ or it's at least not their problem. As much as the idiots hooted about the group that walked out of the Ennies or showed them support, that's some significant star power (for this lame industry) that's basically saying "No, gently caress you." It's just not enough.
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Oct 24, 2015 06:38
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Nuns with Guns posted:Zak also labels anyone that disagrees with him as an extremist bigot and will make sure to spread that around, and you'll also wind up on his hate list and he'll stalk you for as long as he can keep track of your internet/irl names. So that's another level of discouragement. In fact, he's probably reading this entire convo right now and taking note of everyone mentioning his name Also too, dude is exactly the flavor of 'uphold the status quo, but have tattoos and mohawks to play at being anarchist' kool-aid that a lot of internet dudes who think that discovering the socratic method and ayn rand makes them logical uber-mensch can't get enough of. So that accounts for a significant portion of his fan club.
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Oct 24, 2015 06:46
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Otisburg posted:
And just to tally up on the cost of things. For people run out of the industry we've got Mikan, Last Stand, and publishing Inverse World. And who else ?
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Oct 24, 2015 08:01
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Error 404 posted:Also too, dude is exactly the flavor of 'uphold the status quo, but have tattoos and mohawks to play at being anarchist' kool-aid that a lot of internet dudes who think that discovering the socratic method and ayn rand makes them logical uber-mensch can't get enough of. None of this explains how he has a small army of creeps ready to harass people on his command. But if any RPG author has a chance of reaching that untapped market of guys who threaten women on Tinder, it's Zak S.
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Oct 24, 2015 13:01
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mllaneza posted:And just to tally up on the cost of things. For people run out of the industry we've got Mikan, Last Stand, and publishing Inverse World. And who else ? Wait what happened with Inverse World? Did something happen with Jacob Randolph?
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Oct 24, 2015 15:50
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Halloween Jack posted:None of this explains how he has a small army of creeps ready to harass people on his command. But if any RPG author has a chance of reaching that untapped market of guys who threaten women on Tinder, it's Zak S. That's just a product of having a respectably-sized group of fans. If anyone in that position has some kind of public disagreement or call-out, fans will be more than happy to "support" the person they like in whatever way they can. Statistically, in a large group of people there's bound to be a few that think the appropriate way to support someone is shitpost or send rape/death threats to make the other person shut up. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Oct 24, 2015 |
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Oct 24, 2015 15:59
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Nuns with Guns posted:Zak also labels anyone that disagrees with him as an extremist bigot and will make sure to spread that around, and you'll also wind up on his hate list and he'll stalk you for as long as he can keep track of your internet/irl names. So that's another level of discouragement. In fact, he's probably reading this entire convo right now and taking note of everyone mentioning his name Hey Zak my name is dickeye and that will help you find my Twitter I'm mentally ill as gently caress and have no fear
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Oct 24, 2015 16:21
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It's not like you can really kick someone out of an industry that's universally run out of people's kitchens, anyway, short of banning the guy from his own kitchen or engaging in a criminal harassment ring. I mean, it would help if people would stop giving him awards.
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Oct 24, 2015 16:27
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Rand Brittain posted:It's not like you can really kick someone out of an industry that's universally run out of people's kitchens, anyway, short of banning the guy from his own kitchen or engaging in a criminal harassment ring. The closest you can get really is shunning the person and refusing to work with them on any project. Do not talk to them, do not engage with them, but make it a point of publicly denouncing you refuse to work/listen/engage with the individual. Eventually, enough people get the idea about the person and what makes them so scummy, usually using their own words to illustrate their toxicity. It may not get them to stop of course, because people like Zak and Pundowski are too damaged to fix, but inevitably the only people who will listen to them are a small echo chamber and slide into irrelevancy. What you DON'T want to do is pull a Zak and do several harassment campaigns that chase people out of the industry. Point out they're a shitlord, tell WHY they are a shitlord, but also point out that you don't want people doing the same poo poo he does, because all it does is add fuel to the fire.
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Oct 24, 2015 16:39
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There's a certain mentality, not limited to TRPGs, that you should be able to enjoy a product outside of the politics and personal life of its author. To mangle an analogy, Zak S is the Roman Polanski of D&D, and Vornheim is his The Pianist.
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Oct 24, 2015 16:56
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gradenko_2000 posted:There's a certain mentality, not limited to TRPGs, that you should be able to enjoy a product outside of the politics and personal life of its author. To mangle an analogy, Zak S is the Roman Polanski of D&D, and Vornheim is his The Pianist. I feel that's more applicable after the author's death, where you're no longer supporting them directly and there's a certain distance that develops. What Polanski did was awful and reprehensible and should've been punished decades ago. However, Polanski isn't currently publicly harassing and stalking people, nor is he chasing people out of the film industry because they said something bad about a movie he doesn't even like. Zak is actively doing harm to others right now, and it's pretty tough to enjoy anything he's done when he continues to be so awful towards people (see Orson Scott Card as a perfect example).
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Oct 24, 2015 17:09
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That's all true, but when people enjoy something, they will formulate a number of rationales for why they can continue enjoying it despite what harm it may do others.
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Oct 24, 2015 18:14
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Pulsedragon posted:Wait what happened with Inverse World? Did something happen with Jacob Randolph? So, Inverse World was made by two people, Jacob Randolph aka gnome7, and noted ex-goon Mikan. Mikan got into a dumb argument with Zak S back in the original grogs.txt where people were saying he was sexist for saying the group of women he plays with just don't AC as well as they get THAC0 because math when his girlfriend had some serious medical issues and does just get THAC0 better (and those medical issues have only gotten worse, unfortunately), and then Zak got banned and grogs.txt got goldmined and everyone forgot about it. Everyone but Zak S, who constantly put her on those lists of people who are Ruining The Tabletop Industry that he gives to his fans so he has plausible deniability when those people get a dozen people doxxing them and poo poo. And got called a horrible ugly troll in Dongion articles. And was publicly out as a trans lady in a blog post by Zak S' incredibly sick girlfriend (that had a typo of Mikan's last name in it that only Zak S and Dongion articles that were probably written by Zak S have, so...). Anyway, Mikan has now left both the industry and social media entirely and is hopefully happier for it.
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Oct 24, 2015 18:31
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Rand Brittain posted:It's not like you can really kick someone out of an industry that's universally run out of people's kitchens, anyway, short of banning the guy from his own kitchen or engaging in a criminal harassment ring. Lurks With Wolves posted:So, Inverse World was made by two people, Jacob Randolph aka gnome7, and noted ex-goon Mikan. Mikan got into a dumb argument with Zak S back in the original grogs.txt where people were saying he was sexist for saying the group of women he plays with just don't AC as well as they get THAC0 because math when his girlfriend had some serious medical issues and does just get THAC0 better (and those medical issues have only gotten worse, unfortunately), and then Zak got banned and grogs.txt got goldmined and everyone forgot about it. Everyone but Zak S, who constantly put her on those lists of people who are Ruining The Tabletop Industry that he gives to his fans so he has plausible deniability when those people get a dozen people doxxing them and poo poo. And got called a horrible ugly troll in Dongion articles. And was publicly out as a trans lady in a blog post by Zak S' incredibly sick girlfriend (that had a typo of Mikan's last name in it that only Zak S and Dongion articles that were probably written by Zak S have, so...). Anyway, Mikan has now left both the industry and social media entirely and is hopefully happier for it. EDIT: From the sounds of people closer in the industry most if not all of the people are pretty dam lovely in their own regards. MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Oct 24, 2015 |
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Oct 24, 2015 18:33
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Lurks With Wolves posted:So, Inverse World was made by two people, Jacob Randolph aka gnome7, and noted ex-goon Mikan. Mikan got into a dumb argument with Zak S back in the original grogs.txt where people were saying he was sexist for saying the group of women he plays with just don't AC as well as they get THAC0 because math when his girlfriend had some serious medical issues and does just get THAC0 better (and those medical issues have only gotten worse, unfortunately), and then Zak got banned and grogs.txt got goldmined and everyone forgot about it. No, I think that part was Gau. To be fair, Gau also got shat on by Zak over that argument, multiple times.
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Oct 24, 2015 18:33
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GrizzlyCow posted:That's all true, but when people enjoy something, they will formulate a number of rationales for why they can continue enjoying it despite what harm it may do others. Well, yeah. That's kind of a part of human nature.
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Oct 24, 2015 18:34
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Lurks With Wolves posted:So, Inverse World was made by two people, Jacob Randolph aka gnome7, and noted ex-goon Mikan. Mikan got into a dumb argument with Zak S back in the original grogs.txt where people were saying he was sexist for saying the group of women he plays with just don't AC as well as they get THAC0 because math when his girlfriend had some serious medical issues and does just get THAC0 better (and those medical issues have only gotten worse, unfortunately), and then Zak got banned and grogs.txt got goldmined and everyone forgot about it. Everyone but Zak S, who constantly put her on those lists of people who are Ruining The Tabletop Industry that he gives to his fans so he has plausible deniability when those people get a dozen people doxxing them and poo poo. And got called a horrible ugly troll in Dongion articles. And was publicly out as a trans lady in a blog post by Zak S' incredibly sick girlfriend (that had a typo of Mikan's last name in it that only Zak S and Dongion articles that were probably written by Zak S have, so...). Anyway, Mikan has now left both the industry and social media entirely and is hopefully happier for it. Oh. Somehow I didn't know that Mikan was involved in Inverse World too 
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Oct 24, 2015 18:36
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MadScientistWorking posted:What the loving hell are you going on about? I mean even dam well Zak himself has done that himself even though the cynic in me says that its entirely self serving on his part. I'm not sure what you're trying to say?
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Oct 24, 2015 18:41
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Slimnoid posted:I feel that's more applicable after the author's death, where you're no longer supporting them directly and there's a certain distance that develops. I really hope you're not trying to claim a rapist isn't as bad as internet harassers because he isn't raping people right now. Polanski should have been hanged and no amount of not raping someone will change that.
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Oct 24, 2015 18:44
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Lurks With Wolves posted:So, Inverse World was made by two people, Jacob Randolph aka gnome7, and noted ex-goon Mikan. Mikan got into a dumb argument with Zak S back in the original grogs.txt where people were saying he was sexist for saying the group of women he plays with just don't AC as well as they get THAC0 because math when his girlfriend had some serious medical issues and does just get THAC0 better (and those medical issues have only gotten worse, unfortunately), and then Zak got banned and grogs.txt got goldmined and everyone forgot about it. Everyone but Zak S, who constantly put her on those lists of people who are Ruining The Tabletop Industry that he gives to his fans so he has plausible deniability when those people get a dozen people doxxing them and poo poo. And got called a horrible ugly troll in Dongion articles. And was publicly out as a trans lady in a blog post by Zak S' incredibly sick girlfriend (that had a typo of Mikan's last name in it that only Zak S and Dongion articles that were probably written by Zak S have, so...). Anyway, Mikan has now left both the industry and social media entirely and is hopefully happier for it. Only Gau was saying that Zak was sexist for saying the group of women he plays with don't do math well because Gau is horrible trash Mikan at the time was trying to offer suggestions to Zak about how to post without it descending into an argument where everyone only half-understands one another and everyone gets mad. I think it was also over his own blog posts not on the grogs threads? Unsolicited posting advice may not be welcome to most people, but nothing Mikan did warranted being outed, stalked, or harassed years after the fact. Mikan had already left SA by the time there was a big blowup with Zak being a 5e paid consultant, but for some reason she became one of the main targets of blame for it all. The call-out post where Mandy outed Mikan was allegedly accidental (in that they claim didn't know she'd transitioned at that point), but even if that's the case she didn't do much to correct it or apologize for it other than edit some of personal info about Mikan out of her call-out post. Some of the more vocal Zak/Mandy supporters even said Mikan deserved it, wasn't really trans, or that it was okay to do and no one stepped in to stop that afaik. e- Bedlamdan posted:No, I think that part was Gau. Gau has been stalked and harassed over this too, even to the point of receiving death threats over the phone at this house iirc. He doesn't deserve that at all either, since it was just a stupid internet argument. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Oct 24, 2015 |
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Oct 24, 2015 18:51
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Terrible Opinions posted:I really hope you're not trying to claim a rapist isn't as bad as internet harassers because he isn't raping people right now. Polanski should have been hanged and no amount of not raping someone will change that. Yeah. This.
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Oct 24, 2015 18:52
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Did Zak actually do something sinister recently or is this just a fond trip down memory lane?
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Oct 24, 2015 18:58
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Rand Brittain posted:I'm not sure what you're trying to say?
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Oct 24, 2015 18:59
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theironjef posted:Did Zak actually do something sinister recently or is this just a fond trip down memory lane? Sicced his harassment mob on a man for not liking Star Wars.
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Oct 24, 2015 19:00
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theironjef posted:Did Zak actually do something sinister recently or is this just a fond trip down memory lane? This is despite David having politely asked him to be left alone. It brought a new wave of harassment, and David has decided that once he's done with his current obligations he's leaving the industry because it's not worth it to put his family at risk. But somehow there are two sides to this, no really!
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Oct 24, 2015 19:03
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Terrible Opinions posted:I really hope you're not trying to claim a rapist isn't as bad as internet harassers because he isn't raping people right now. Polanski should have been hanged and no amount of not raping someone will change that. The impression I got from reading that was that he meant that it's okay to like and support things that a dead rear end in a top hat produces, because that money does not support his rear end in a top hat lifestyle and encourage him to act like an rear end in a top hat; whereas ignoring Zak's... let's be generous and call them political views because you like what he produces as a TTG developper means supporting that kind of activity.
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Oct 24, 2015 19:04
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It's kind of an odd analogy because Polanski is still alive, though.
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Oct 24, 2015 19:16
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Serf posted:Sicced his harassment mob on a man for not liking Star Wars. This comes up a lot because it is terrible, but you do realize this literally happens anytime anyone who has a fanbase on the internet says anything negative about someone.
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Oct 24, 2015 19:18
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Terrible Opinions posted:This comes up a lot because it is terrible, but you do realize this literally happens anytime anyone who has a fanbase on the internet says anything negative about someone. I don't get what you're saying here. Should I not say what's happening because it happens all the time?
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Oct 24, 2015 19:27
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MadScientistWorking posted:Its not that hard to isolate jackasses even in this industry. Is it? I mean, Zak is banned from basically everywhere but he still manages to have a fanbase and make a living. I don't actually see how you could isolate him much more than he is without having literally 100% of roleplaying enthusiasts agree to pretend they can't see him. I guess he's "isolated" but not so isolated that he isn't still in business. The "industry" is so decentralized that I don't see how you can actually push people out of it so long as they have access to a pirated copy of inDesign and a couple of dice. See also, all the other people who stole money or ran off with somebody else's run of books and somehow manage to keep going.
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Oct 24, 2015 19:34
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Guilty Spork posted:For whatever reason he decided to take a bunch of screenshots he's saved from stalking David Hill (of Onyx Path fame) and write up a huge post about how David's opinions on Star Wars are Bad and Wrong. There's some potentially legitimate points buried in there, but overall it looks more like something Milo Yiannopolos would post to Breitbart on behalf of That One Hashtag than anything we should expect from a legitimate RPG blogger. I mean, taking years old screenshots and writing up huge posts about how another person's opinions are Bad and Wrong happen in this thread. But uh, getting pictures of your kid's school sent to you is scary.
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Oct 24, 2015 19:45
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Serf posted:I don't get what you're saying here. Should I not say what's happening because it happens all the time? Depends on if it's grog or not.
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Oct 24, 2015 19:48
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theironjef posted:Depends on if it's grog or not. I was just answering your question as to why we're talking about Zak S.
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Oct 24, 2015 19:52
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Serf posted:I don't get what you're saying here. Should I not say what's happening because it happens all the time?
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Oct 24, 2015 19:52
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Where does he publish his squad's marching orders, anyway?
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Oct 24, 2015 19:54
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Serf posted:I was just answering your question as to why we're talking about Zak S. You're right, thanks for that. I'm just saying that poo poo a known Grognard does isn't automatically grog. Having a fanbase that hates a guy for not liking a film franchise is pretty far removed from gettin' salty over elfgames. It's more like a headline of "Breaking news: Known public rear end in a top hat still rear end in a top hat." theironjef fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Oct 24, 2015 |
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Oct 24, 2015 19:56
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Terrible Opinions posted:It just seems like weirdly politicized terminology. Like when Ubisoft PR guys were harassed over Assassin's Creed not having women in one game. Like I wouldn't claim that the journos who confronted the initial guys "sicced a harassment mob" on all other Ubisoft PR guys, but the actual events are identical. Twitter feed full of angry people hating you and telling you to kill yourself. Though this could just be that I hate Ubisoft and don't naturally use sympathetic language toward them. Oftentimes, one's actual actions matter little in comparison to what crowd you roll with and the victims you choose. Truefax.
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Oct 24, 2015 19:59
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Halloween Jack posted:mainly it's that he posts pictures of hot girls with dice  Nuns with Guns posted:That's just a product of having a respectably-sized group of fans. If anyone in that position has some kind of public disagreement or call-out, fans will be more than happy to "support" the person they like in whatever way they can. Like Zak sounds like a dick, but this thread is literally dedicated to trolling things they dont agree with. There were posters here that used to brag about how they would go to other sites and get banned for being assholes. Then other people would follow them over there and follow up. Like really, no  ?
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