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Oh hey whoops what's that I see over there?
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Jul 20, 2020 18:41
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At one point I thought about doing tri power. That one would only work on a 61-64 engine since the intake to head pattern changed in 1960 and again in 1965. You can get efi that bolts on to get a bit more power and less messing around with progressive throttle linkages. If I was going to do tri power I would do that and then get a set of velocity stacks through the hood. I might do that on the 400 block I picked up over the weekend. It had no main caps so grabbed some of those before it goes to the machine shop for an align bore, hot tank, hone, new core plugs etc.... It is a 1968 YS code block meaning it was from a GTO, 4 barrel with a 3 speed. Can get an internally balanced, forged stroker kit that depending on how much it needs to be bored out will be between 461 and 489 ic. Keep an eye out for some high comp heads with big valves or get a set of aluminum heads and it should just swap right in for the 350 in there. Probably a winter project as I have to get it running, driving and road worthy before spending $$$$ on a better engine. With the starter I have tried different places for grounds, different wires and I think it needs to be shimmed different as it is hitting the flywheel engaging for a second then popping back out. If I have to take the starter out then I guess I should run the headers through. Also the original cross member won’t work with the TH400 without modification and no space for a rubber mount so just going to make an adaptor for the TH400 tailhousing bolt pattern and bolt it in. Going to need a longer drive shaft as well but can’t measure the length until in the transmission in the final position.
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Jul 20, 2020 23:04
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I had tripower on a 455, it looked and sounded great, but honestly the car was faster with a quadrajet. Tripowers are a lot more expensive to build correctly, and prone to fires due to the many flare nut fuel fittings.
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Jul 20, 2020 23:12
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That is what my research showed, sounds great, pain in the balls to tune. I just have a 4 barrel avs2 on it right now since they are cheap and it just needs 650 cfm on the babby 350. It is finally sitting on its wheels with the engine and trans in so need to get a picture of how it sits. I think it is a little high and the front can be dropped with the coil overs and I can drop the rear about an inch with the adjustable upper arms.
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Jul 20, 2020 23:19
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Yeah, I feel that. If I can help it, I'm never balancing carbs again - my 4x1bbl Corvair was a _ton_ of work.
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Jul 21, 2020 01:19
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Actually, tripower can be extremely simple. You run on the center carb all the time, and at a certain throttle position (depending on how you adjust the linkage, assuming mechanical linkage) the outers start opening as well, but only the center carb has idle screws or idle adjustment, no balancing necessary. I think the Corvettes, the Mopars (and some of the Pontiacs) had vacuum operated secondaries which were not nearly as controllable. Here's my old setup:
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Jul 21, 2020 02:22
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That picture is super helpful as I can see where you engine to frame ground strap is going which is something I was trying to figure out 
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Jul 21, 2020 13:41
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I was gonna suggest adjusting the starter shims, but I'm only aware of it as a possible fix for the symptom you're having. I couldn't tell you how to do it.
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Jul 21, 2020 13:49
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BigPaddy posted:Engine and trans in and secured so want to try and crank the thing over. 3 possible issues... all mentioned, but I'll run down them in the most likely order (in my head), and why I think each of them could be causing an issue. #1: poor ground connection from the block to body, and/or poor ground from the battery to body. you'll see almost zero voltage drop when running the starter. Easy to diagnose, connect a jumper cable to bare metal on the engine (one of the alternator bolts works great), the other end to the negative terminal on the battery. If it suddenly cranks a lot faster, you've lost a Very Important Ground (I'm betting on this since the engine was out recently). #2: bad battery that shows a good resting voltage, but goes to poo poo under load. The real  of battery issues. Only a REAL carbon pile battery tester can show this; the typical ones they bring out to your car at a parts store can't. You'll need to take it in and tell them to put it on the old school tester if they have one (any store that can actually test starters likely has a proper battery tester too)#3: poo poo starter - it should be able to spin much faster, assuming all the wiring is good, and the starter is good. that thing is just baaaaarely moving. #4: shims. But at that point I'd just pull the starter and take it to an old school parts place that can actually bench test starters (Napa, some O'Reilly's, etc). If it works fine with acceptable current draw, then something is binding up due to not being shimmed correctly. #5 - timing COULD cause weird starting (including the starter trying to lock up in places), but it's not spinning fast enough to build any meaningful compression or light off a cylinder. Unless your timing chain wasn't lined up right and the engine is out of time, in which case... well have fun pulling the timing cover. #6 - super tight motor that just hasn't been run-in yet? A typical GM V8 starter should still be able to spin it over, but it's gonna hate life and die an early death. randomidiot fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Jul 21, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 15:53
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Thanks, that list is what I have been going on in my head. The starter is coming out regardless so I expect it will go be tested. The battery drops to 11.5v when cranking so I am fairly certain it is ok. As for timing and tight new engine not a clue as when I picked it up it was under a workbench in the guys auto mechanic business next to the car he had removed it from to put a 455 in. There is the possibility he was spinning a yarn about just wanting a bigger engine and something is up but it does turn by hand and everything looks ok when I take the valve covers off and check down the bores with a scope. Once the starter is out and tested and it looks ok then I will put it back on and start shimming it. I have to take the starter out anyway to get the headers in because you can't get the collector past the steering box and starter from the top and there is not enough space to get the header flange through with the starter in place from the bottom. Also it is spinning faster than it looks but for some reason imgur as slowed the video down.... BigPaddy fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Jul 21, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 16:34
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Ok better video (don’t dox me) https://youtu.be/_ew9jN50kLY It will turn for a second, stop and just click, then I have to turn it by hand and you hear a click as the gear disengages then it will turn over for a second again.
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Jul 21, 2020 16:51
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It's not some insanely high compression motor is it? 11.5 while cranking no matter how long you hold the button? Definitely check any ground wires/straps between the block and body, the negative cable from the battery should be checked too - if the starter gets "stuck" like that it should be pulling the voltage down a lot further. The video makes it sound like a lovely starter, though, or a dead battery. It's only able to spin it through the exhaust stroke, you're moving it by hand (quite easily I'd say with that wrench) through compression, starter can finally move it again. Solenoid obviously has enough power though, usually they'd be clicking like mad by the time the starter quit if it was a voltage issue. randomidiot fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jul 21, 2020 |
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Jul 21, 2020 18:39
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From the factory that 350 is around 7.5:1 compression, it does have a cam but I don't think that will effect it that much. I am going to pull the plugs and try to turn it over. If it spins then I owe you a drink as it will be the starter is just garbage.
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Jul 21, 2020 18:57
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I'd slap the battery from literally anything else in it and see if it works, if it does it's the battery. If it doesn't, I think you either have a bad starter or it needs shimming out a little because it's jamming the crest of the teeth into the roots on the other gear and stopping, which is why it only turns a little each time. Shims are cheap, try adding one and see if it gets any better. If it does, bother checking clearance and adjusting it correctly.
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Jul 21, 2020 19:06
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Starter out You win this round China. So whoever guessed bad starter you are right, just not how you were expecting.
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Jul 25, 2020 11:47
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Lol what a pain! Can you return it?
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Jul 25, 2020 13:54
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It was less than the core charge on a new one at autozone. So I just chopped it in. Got home and installed the new one and it will turn over more and not get stuck, however whomever said something about the engine having high compression gets a gold star. It will turn until the compression stroke then stick and roll back. I take the plugs out and it turns over fine. What kind of magic wizard box have I bought!?!?! I guess I need a high torque mini starter
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Jul 25, 2020 14:54
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Slam a different battery in it first, it could be the battery is just too low to let the starter fight the compression. I mean, I'd expect the solenoid to start clicking like mad if it's that low, but... you're able to spin it by hand with a breaker bar. Orrrrr it had compression jammed WAY up when it was rebuilt.
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Jul 25, 2020 15:04
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I am going to throw my note scope down it again and see if it has flat top pistons or something else to give me a hint what was done. No clicking when it gets stuck it sits there until I let off the trigger and then it turns back.
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Jul 25, 2020 15:50
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The broken casting on the other starter could be a symptom of misalignment. Edit - a friend of mine with similar cranking issues on a freshly built GM motor, Just texted him, and he was using a starter he had rebuilt by a local shop, and a shim kit fixed it. Same symptoms, at least the no crank past the compression stroke. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Jul 25, 2020 |
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Jul 25, 2020 17:01
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Tried it with different amount of shims and no difference, jumped it from the battery in my 2015 Silverado and same thing. Moved connections and ground around and still the same. Turns over fine by hand and there is no grinding or the gear getting stuck like the last starter so bore scope first and take a look at the pistons. Swap meet at New England Dragway tomorrow so might see if someone there has a high torque mini starter and throw more money at this.
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Jul 25, 2020 23:06
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A mini starter cured ALL the starting problems on my last Pontiac.
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Jul 25, 2020 23:33
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High torque mini starter installed and shimmed, no good. Batter with more CCA will turn it over very slowly. Have cleaned all the grounding surfaces and put new ground straps on the engine to chassis. Honestly I am getting the point where I want to try and put spark and fuel to it and see if it will go because either the engine has something wrong or I am out of ideas.
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Aug 1, 2020 14:40
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You've mentioned that you can turn it by hand right? If thats the case, then its probably not half seized or something.
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Aug 1, 2020 15:00
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It turns over by hand easily, the starter get stuck on compression and with the mini starter and new battery will stop for a few seconds then crank some more then stop etc... which of course is making the cables hot.
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Aug 1, 2020 15:06
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 I think you need a better connection at the battery here, and also that jumper cable is pretty long for what you're doing, and appears rather thin. At any point have you hooked up the battery in a final configuration with good tight clamps and terminals everywhere with proper gauge conductors?
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Aug 1, 2020 17:32
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Ding ding ding. Yep replaced the jumper cables with real battery cables and it runs fine. gently caress me I am an idiot.
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Aug 1, 2020 20:19
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poo poo like that will get ya. When you said the cables were getting hot I went back and looked at the videos you posted. Anyway, gonna go for a real startup this weekend?
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Aug 1, 2020 23:28
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Yep, I put the new HEI dizzy in and first time got it backwards. Had it cough a few times in carb cleaner. Going to throw the headers on it tomorrow and make sure all the water, fuel etc... hoses are tight and try to get it idling for a bit.
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Aug 1, 2020 23:51
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Dizzy cap was off 180 degrees so fixed that and it lit off first try. Quickjacks assembled and they give me room that I expected tbh.
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Aug 2, 2020 14:21
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Rise from the grave! So it lives, kinda https://youtu.be/GTZw55gH9C8 Made new cables for the starter, battery and alternator and jumped the ignition from the battery and off it went. Some leaks that need sorting out but nothing too crazy. As you see in the video it started but as soon as I gave it some gas it stalled and then would not start. I am thinking it might be getting flooded and will try again later today. If not then time to test the distributor. Just seems odd it was fine until I revved it.
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Aug 17, 2020 14:21
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It runs now but I need to wire the choke up as once it gets warm it just runs too rich and dies. Primed the fuel system and had it pull gas from the tank and has 60psi of oil pressure cold so seems to be doing ok. Going to be heading out of town for a few days so won't have time to start wiring up the rest of the stuff and fixing a few leaks until next week but once that is done it will be ready to let run to get warm and time it properly.
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Aug 19, 2020 15:24
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Need some advice. The original cross member for the transmission will not work without a lot of cutting and welding. Do I just make one rather than try to bodge the old one to fit a th400? Main issue is that the mount for the th400 is much lower than the original transmission. I expect I will have to either make a solid mount or just use a small rubber isolator between the tail housing and the cross member. Getting the trans mounted correctly and a driveshaft made are the lady things before I can have it move under its own power.
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Aug 27, 2020 14:29
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Some sort of rubber isolator would probably help minimize and annoying noises, vibrations etc...
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Aug 28, 2020 11:31
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Have you looked at any Pontiac forums? I'm sure someone's dealt with this before. Maybe try http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/
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Aug 28, 2020 18:28
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Decided to modify the original cross member as it was pretty simple and making it fit the new trans wouldn't be a lot of work   My end of year project for the Stevie Wonder School of Welding. It is not bolted to the trans and new holes for the cross member to frame drilled and bolts gone in. Put it back on the ground and measured up for a new drive shaft as the original one is too short. Other small items like plumbing all the vacuum lines for the trans shift actuator, distributor, vacuum guage and brake booster is all done. Main thing stopping me starting it right now is the thread for the radiator integrated trans cooler lines stripped out when trying to tighten them as one was leaking. Ordered a new radiator as the one in there was a cheap Amazon one and wires for the fan on it kept breaking at every connection so gently caress it Champion rad it is. Once I get that in I can reconnect all the lines, top up the ATF, refill with coolant and then run it up to temp and check the fans work etc... Get the drive shaft installed and then I can at least have it move around the yard under its own power.
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Sep 4, 2020 18:08
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If you'd like, and can get that to New Braintree MA on some weekday this week (TBD - not sure when my parts order for the Honcho is arriving), I can weld it up a bit more solidly free, I'll be welding up my exhaust anyways so I'll have the welder set up. I'm not actually sure if that's going to stay on, looking at it.
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Sep 6, 2020 01:45
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I will get it out from under the car and get some closer up images. I can likely get it to New Braintree in the week. Main issue is if it is out then it needs to stay up on jack stands with the trans jack holding it up.
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Sep 6, 2020 02:05
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Up to you! I'm not sure yet but it's looking like Tuesday or Wednesday is likely to be the best schedule for me if that works for you. E: Wednesday evening work for you? I'll probably be there around 430ish. kastein fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Sep 7, 2020 |
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Sep 7, 2020 08:23
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Thanks to Kastine cross member is much better and fits all in the original holes. Spent a few hours today fixing the passenger door window because it was annoying me and just needed for the runner to be put back together. The heater core leaks and I started poking around there and it seems that it is all serviced from the engine bay and I have to remove the hood and a hinge to get to the bolts for the heater box and blower motor. Kind of wondering if I should leave it all in and just put in an aftermarket combo heat/cool unit and run new ducts. Once that started to spiral out of control I decided to take a look at the wiring under the dash and found this. I picked up a aftermarket fuse block + 15 circuit harness a few months back anticipating this kind of thing as finding a 50+ year old fuse block that is not junk and no one makes a new one means I should just remove everything and do it from scratch. Most of the wiring itself looks ok but under the hood there is a lot of crap I don't need anymore that needs to be removed anyway such as the water temp and oil pressure idiot lights that will be replaced with gauges. I am glad this is a "learn about how cars work" project and not something that needs to be driven soon
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Sep 19, 2020 18:39
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