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Sash! posted:Sloan also had an avenue to lie in a way that would have completely defeated Bashir too: tell him that the morphogenic virus was derived from the Telpan blight. Bashir would not take it well, given that the Telpan blight was a major failure on his part. Except that Bashir would be able to tell that that was bullshit since he had studied both diseases extensively.
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Apr 26, 2021 18:32
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In the future Starfleet intelligence still has rules to follow, whereas section 31 can go around kidnapping people, murdering them, couping governments, genocide, with Starfleet maintaining complete deniability. Bashir and sisko clearly see this as wrong, but at the same time, they aren't going to give the cure to their genocidal virus away for free
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Apr 26, 2021 18:59
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MikeJF posted:I've always assumed Spacedock is mostly hollow all the way down the tube and a way to work on ships in a pressurised environment. Same. Forcefield across the space door openings to hold atmosphere in, but also physical doors as a backup. Being able to walk around on a half-built ship without a spacesuit would make construction a lot easier.
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Apr 27, 2021 01:36
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MikeJF posted:We're lucky we got what we did: the 'main' study models based on concept art for the excelsior were these things USS Hard Disk Drive
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Apr 27, 2021 04:29
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I always loved ships that were designed from angle. "Yeah... lookit all these shapes. So much detail. Such silhouette. Yes." "Very nice! What's the side look like?" "Er... Like... like this. *draws pancake*" "I say, that won't do..." "Well tough fucks, Bill's already got the model half made."
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Apr 27, 2021 04:50
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V-Men posted:Well, they'd be two separate bodies that do two separate things. Starfleet Intelligence does routine matters, classified research (e.g., the Pegasus), analysis and clandestine collection and sensitive operations, like re-inserting that Cardassian agent in the episode Lower Decks, probably akin to a CIA/Defense Intelligence Agency hybrid. The more obvious real-life model for Starfleet Intelligence (because Starfleet is based on the US Navy) is the US Navy's Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI). Wikipedia posted:The Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) is the military intelligence agency of the United States Navy. Established in 1882 primarily to advance the Navy's modernization efforts,[4][5] ONI is the oldest member of the United States Intelligence Community and serves as the nation's premier source of maritime intelligence. Since the First World War, its mission has broadened to include real-time reporting on the developments and activities of foreign navies; protecting maritime resources and interests; monitoring and countering transnational maritime threats; providing technical, operational, and tactical support to the U.S. Navy and its partners; and surveying the global maritime environment. ONI employs over 3,000 military and civilian personnel worldwide and is headquartered at the National Maritime Intelligence Center in Suitland, Maryland. So it's more about logistics, troop movements, and understanding enemy capabilities than any of the hairy hearts-and-minds-and-daggers stuff that JSOC/CIA and their future S31 counterpart do. As such, you could expect to see a more typical sort of Starfleet officer in those roles, probably working fist in glove with their sketchier S31 counterparts and not liking or trusting them much if at all but also totally dependent on them for juicy HUMINT.
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Apr 27, 2021 05:20
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My thing is once you have subspace telescopes and like scanners that can pick up the smallest biological sign. Wouldn't it be a more open game over all? It seems like you just get an active sensor complex and scan away.
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Apr 27, 2021 05:42
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Kesper North posted:As such, you could expect to see a more typical sort of Starfleet officer in those roles, probably working fist in glove with their sketchier S31 counterparts and not liking or trusting them much if at all but also totally dependent on them for juicy HUMINT. Hey, it was Starfleet Intelligence who made Miles play Donnie Brasco.
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Apr 27, 2021 05:53
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Axe-man posted:My thing is once you have subspace telescopes and like scanners that can pick up the smallest biological sign. Wouldn't it be a more open game over all? It seems like you just get an active sensor complex and scan away. Well for one thing, the bad guys have cloaking devices, and for another thing, yes, that is exactly the sort of thing that ONI does today with the SOSUS submarine detection networks. Remember, you can figure out what type of submarine you're looking at via the sound it makes - that's probably pretty analogous to spying on fleet movements via subspace magic array. I'm not sure if they have their own satellites too or task NRO birds, that's probably classified... But they also need to know how it all works, and the best way to do that would be to get behind enemy lines somehow with a sensor package and soak up the emissions from a naval exercise. Like again the ONI does with drone systems today. (Maybe there's some humint in the mix there; could be Starfleet Intel has a competing program to learn about not just what future adversaries are doing, but what they're building in their yards, and what they're thinking about in their 20-year plans.) Epicurius posted:Hey, it was Starfleet Intelligence who made Miles play Donnie Brasco. drat, I forgot that was SFI. Malignant and incompetent, sigh. Kesper North fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Apr 27, 2021 |
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Apr 27, 2021 06:01
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Kesper North posted:drat, I forgot that was SFI. Malignant and incompetent, sigh. Who do you think operates the O'Brien Must Suffer Initiative?
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Apr 27, 2021 06:15
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McSpanky posted:Who do you think operates the O'Brien Must Suffer Initiative? I guess I thought Keiko was his handler. They seemed fundamentally unsuited to eachother otherwise. He has more chemistry with Julian!
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Apr 27, 2021 07:39
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egon_beeblebrox posted:https://twitter.com/StarTrekEXO6/status/1386707664332328961?s=20 LOL some dude just offered me 1/6th of an induction modulator for a loan of it on Nextdoor what
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Apr 27, 2021 09:12
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I think the other thing about S31 in DS9 (other than the 90's conspiracy story point) is that up until that point every single story about Starfleet Intelligence in Star Trek is about them loving up in some spectacular way. Sloane is amoral/evil but he's also extremely competent.
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Apr 27, 2021 10:12
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People comparing Section 31's DS9 version to JSOC are missing the point: section 31 wasn't just secretive and highly classified, it was illegitimate. As of DS9 it was basically a cabal of people who used a flimsy reading of a clause in the starfleet charter to perform actions outside the law 'for the greater good' with no formal agency within Starfleet. The difference between Starfleet Intelligence and Section 31 is that Starfleet Intelligence was a proper Starfleet agency and bound by their rules, and Section 31 was just a bunch of guys who thought rules were for losers. Discovery messed things up but the easiest way to make it line up is to say that formal Section 31 was disbanded after control but then kept itself going under the table. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 11:49 on Apr 27, 2021 |
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Apr 27, 2021 11:44
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MikeJF posted:People comparing Section 31's DS9 version to JSOC are missing the point: section 31 wasn't just secretive and highly classified, it was illegitimate. As of DS9 it was basically a cabal of people who used a flimsy reading of a clause in the starfleet charter to perform actions outside the law 'for the greater good' with no formal agency within Starfleet. The difference between Starfleet Intelligence and Section 31 is that Starfleet Intelligence was a proper Starfleet agency and bound by their rules, and Section 31 was just a bunch of guys who thought rules were for losers. You're overlooking that DS9 S31 were operating with the implicit approval of Starfleet high command because they got results and were able to assert direct influence over the organisation and command resources, so it's hardly like they were a rogue cabal operating around the margins of other departments
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Apr 27, 2021 12:01
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multijoe posted:You're overlooking that DS9 S31 were operating with the implicit approval of Starfleet high command because they got results and were able to assert direct influence over the organisation and command resources, so it's hardly like they were a rogue cabal operating around the margins of other departments Yeah, when Sisko asks about Section 31 he gets told 'shut the gently caress up and stop asking', in Inter Elim Admiral Ross clearly knows who Sloane is and what he's up to. Section 31 isn't illegitimate, it's just very 'eyes only'
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Apr 27, 2021 14:01
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The thing with Ross is that S31 and Starfleet had essentially the same goals, they just differed in how to accomplish them. So with the Romulus mission there is overlap between Sloan’s objective and Ross’s. However, as far as we know the Founder virus was entirely S31’s doing. There’s a difference in risk between signing off on getting rid of a potential problem with an ally as opposed to doing straight-up genocide.
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Apr 27, 2021 14:28
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So, the Founders are like...there's no difference between the group and the individual with their whole drop becomes the ocean/ocean becomes the drop thing. If they're treating themselves as a singular entity, it is more like an assassination than genocide? And we were all cool with assassinations from when they blew up that poor Romulan fellow, which was definitely a war crime too. I'm also completely fine with Laas dying alone and confused because he was a butt.
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Apr 27, 2021 19:58
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It's still a genocide if it's the entire species
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Apr 27, 2021 20:06
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J33uk posted:LOL some dude just offered me 1/6th of an induction modulator for a loan of it on Nextdoor what I appreciate this and I appreciate you
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Apr 27, 2021 20:14
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Killing all the Founders would probably be a really bad move if only because - like, the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar aren't cartoon bees, they won't just lie down and die. Instead what you'd have is a vast interstellar empire headed up by a highly intelligent, vicious, cunning people who hate your loving guts forever and have absolutely no sense of morality.
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Apr 27, 2021 20:16
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HopperUK posted:Killing all the Founders would probably be a really bad move if only because - like, the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar aren't cartoon bees, they won't just lie down and die. Instead what you'd have is a vast interstellar empire headed up by a highly intelligent, vicious, cunning people who hate your loving guts forever and have absolutely no sense of morality. well the jem'hadar would probably just suicide rush everyone including the vorta for failing to keep the founders alive. the empire would absolutely fall apart, and very quickly
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Apr 27, 2021 20:21
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Verviticus posted:well the jem'hadar would probably just suicide rush everyone including the vorta for failing to keep the founders alive. the empire would absolutely fall apart, and very quickly Maybe! It'd be amazing either way
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Apr 27, 2021 20:23
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I wonder how that would play out. The Jems would necessarily have to go to war with the Vorta to procure their source of Ketracel, right? Otherwise their days as a cohesive force are numbered. The only other option would be to submit to the Vorta and I don't think they have the awe factor the Founders do, being just another uplifted marmoset.
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Apr 27, 2021 20:24
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HopperUK posted:Killing all the Founders would probably be a really bad move if only because - like, the Vorta and the Jem'Hadar aren't cartoon bees, they won't just lie down and die. Instead what you'd have is a vast interstellar empire headed up by a highly intelligent, vicious, cunning people who hate your loving guts forever and have absolutely no sense of morality. nah you take odo and the others of the remaining 100 alpha quadrant changelings, who presumably are also are culturally members of the alpha-quadrant powers, and install them as the new founders. Then use the puppet government under the command of section 31 to do... good things. Yes. Good things.
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Apr 27, 2021 20:26
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Brawnfire posted:I wonder how that would play out. The Jems would necessarily have to go to war with the Vorta to procure their source of Ketracel, right? Otherwise their days as a cohesive force are numbered. The only other option would be to submit to the Vorta and I don't think they have the awe factor the Founders do, being just another uplifted marmoset. I think of em as lemurs, I don't know why. Maybe just because most of the Vorta actors we see have very large eyes.
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Apr 27, 2021 20:30
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BonHair posted:It's still a genocide if it's the entire species Funny enough, the first episode of Star Trek ever aired deals with this question The answer is “gently caress yeah kill that murderous shitbag. Then feel bad about it once you’re safe”
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Apr 27, 2021 20:31
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The Vorta are absolutely nothing without the backing of the Founders and the armies of the Jem'Hadar. IMO The JH would immediately wipe out the Vorta, then settle into kind of an ancient Klingon-type deal as they learned to build a society beyond "wait until the Vorta tell us to die"
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Apr 27, 2021 20:34
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Snow Cone Capone posted:The Vorta are absolutely nothing without the backing of the Founders and the armies of the Jem'Hadar. That would be really cool actually, I'd love to see that. But then I'd also like to see how the Dominion's doing now Odo's in the Link. I wonder if he's managing to sway their behaviour at all, or if he's still recognisably himself at all, how that whole thing's going.
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Apr 27, 2021 20:37
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Snow Cone Capone posted:The Vorta are absolutely nothing without the backing of the Founders and the armies of the Jem'Hadar. I don't think they'd get that far unless the Jem'Hadar figure out the ketracel problem very very quickly. It might go pretty much exactly as that Vorta from "Rocks and Shoals" predicted, writ large: they'd just start attacking anything that moves, then wreck the Vorta, and eventually turn on each other until none remain, unless everyone else puts them down first, and it would all happen within a matter of months at most.
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Apr 27, 2021 20:46
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Delsaber posted:I don't think they'd get that far unless the Jem'Hadar figure out the ketracel problem very very quickly. It might go pretty much exactly as that Vorta from "Rocks and Shoals" predicted, writ large: they'd just start attacking anything that moves, then wreck the Vorta, and eventually turn on each other until none remain, unless everyone else puts them down first, and it would all happen within a matter of months at most. I think slaughtering the Vorta would get them at least a few months' Ketracel, and I think the Jem'Hadar are tactical-minded enough to leave some Vorta alive to run the Ketracel factories. The Vorta are born followers who know which way the wind blows - none of them would be in the "oh maybe the Founders will save us somehow" camp, they would all fall in line I think.
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Apr 27, 2021 21:28
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Clearly a triumverate of a rogue hologram, a jem hadar, and a vorta team up to impersonate a founder, relying on the hologram for the flashy shapeshifting and the other two to actually plan and physically interact with things.
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Apr 27, 2021 21:31
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Tunicate posted:Clearly a triumverate of a rogue hologram, a jem hadar, and a vorta team up to impersonate a founder, relying on the hologram for the flashy shapeshifting and the other two to actually plan and physically interact with things. but enough about Janeway on Prodigy 
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Apr 27, 2021 21:32
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Tunicate posted:Clearly a triumverate of a rogue hologram, a jem hadar, and a vorta team up to impersonate a founder Vincent AdultChangeling
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Apr 27, 2021 21:38
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skasion posted:Funny enough, the first episode of Star Trek ever aired deals with this question Works for Kirk, then it works for you
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Apr 27, 2021 21:54
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skasion posted:Funny enough, the first episode of Star Trek ever aired deals with this question If it comes down to it's either them or us that goes... the answer is always it's them. And I'd feel bad about it but only in a "sorry not sorry" kind of way.
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Apr 27, 2021 21:56
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Since we're talking about the morality of genocide, I should point out that the attempted genocide of the Founders was at least utilitarian. It was decisive to winning the Dominion War. By contrast, the Holocaust had no practical benefit for Germany, if anything it was counter-productive because it consumed a lot of resources and manpower and the Jews weren't actually a threat at all. The "necessary evil" dilemma that Star Trek DS9 so loved just wasn't there with the Holocaust, it was stupid evil.
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Apr 28, 2021 12:05
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Kurzon posted:Since we're talking about the morality of genocide, I should point out that the attempted genocide of the Founders was at least utilitarian. It was decisive to winning the Dominion War. By contrast, the Holocaust had no practical benefit for Germany, if anything it was counter-productive because it consumed a lot of resources and manpower and the Jews weren't actually a threat at all. The "necessary evil" dilemma that Star Trek DS9 so loved just wasn't there with the Holocaust, it was stupid evil. Pretty sure the Jews were doing all sorts of things that would surely bring about the end of the white race within a decade, at least in the minds of the actual Nazis. Just because their delusions didn't match up with reality doesn't make then internally invalid, and I believe that at least some Nazis actually believed that the Jews were an existential threat. Anyway, the Dominion wasn't a real threat, being under Dominion rule would be no different than Federation rule for most people. Fighting was a waste of resources in the first place.
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Apr 28, 2021 13:06
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They were introducing various tasty dishes and the German palate could not with stand it. No seriously though the Jewish people were blamed for ww1 even though as a percentage they participated more than any ethnic minority. Really it was the German generals who wanted to defend their idea they could win a 6 month 2 front war with Intel that was out of date when it was planned for. It wouldn't have worked in 1890 when it was developed and it sure as hell didn't in 1914.
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Apr 28, 2021 15:17
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Pull up, thread e: palate-cleansing tweet https://twitter.com/NanaVisitor/status/1386726734297325570?s=19 My wife and I literally did the  emote
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Apr 28, 2021 16:17
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