[interest check] Map Gaming Thread.

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Imp Zone > [interest check] Map Gaming Thread.

Wormskull: Aug 23, 2009

DICKHEAD posted:

Now this I like to see in a manual

At the beginning of our period, in 1494, the French King Charles
VIII decided to resurrect the old French dynastic claim to the
throne of Naples and attempt to conquer an empire in Italy. He
thus began the Italian Wars, a futile struggle between France
and the Imperialists (Spain and the Holy Roman Empire). This
confrontation continued on and off until 1559.

The French army relied for heavy cavalry on fully armoured
gendarmes - the successors of medieval knights, charging fiercely
with lances. Swiss and German mercenaries formed the core of
the infantry. They advanced in huge deep blocks of pikemen,
armed with pikes up to 6 metres (20 foot) long. Native French
infantry were not highly regarded. At the start of the wars the
crossbow was still their main missile weapon, gunpowder
firearms (arquebuses) not yet having caught on in France. They
did, however, have an excellent train of gunpowder artillery. Their
Imperialist opponents also relied on massed pikemen, mostly
German landsknechts. They also had good Spanish and rather
less effective Italian infantry. Their armies included substantial
numbers of arquebusiers, who proved increasingly effective.
Their mounted arm was usually outmatched by the French in
numbers and quality.

The massed attack by huge blocks of pikemen had proved
very successful for the Swiss in the 15th century, and had
been copied as a military system by the landsknechts of
Germany. However, the early years of the Italian Wars were
to reveal its deficiencies. At Cerignola (1503) and Bicocca
(1522) the previously invincible Swiss foot were defeated by
field fortifications manned by artillery and arquebusiers, with
pikemen in support. Suffering severe losses from artillery fire
in the approach, the Swiss formations were then subjected to a
hail of arquebus shot before finally being repelled by pikemen
at the fortifications. At Marignano (1515) the Swiss advance was
halted by repeated French cavalry charges, until the Swiss losses
from the French artillery became too much to bear and they
began to retreat.

As the wars proceeded, both sides, particularly the Spanish,
began to experiment with different mixed infantry formations
of pike and shot in close cooperation. At first (from 1503) the
Spanish fielded mixed units (colunelas) of pikemen, arquebusiers
and sword-and-bucklermen, in much smaller battalions than
Swiss/Landsknecht pike blocks. These could only stand against
pike keils if deployed behind field fortifications. Later, in the
1530s, they developed the mighty tercio, a much more resilient
unit of several thousand men, forming up with a central block
of pikemen, surrounded by arquebusiers, with large clumps of
arquebusiers at each corner. Each tercio was in effect a mobile
fortress that could advance inexorably across the battlefield yet
was able to repel attacks from any direction.

Cavalry warfare also developed. While the French and Spanish
stuck with the lance as the weapon of choice of their heavy
cavalry, the Germans changed over to pistols. These reiters (or
schwartzreiters because of their habit of wearing black armour)
became the usual sort of mercenary German horse hired by the
various combatants in the wars. They developed the caracole,
a system whereby a deep formation of pistoleers could deliver
a continuous barrage of pistol fire against a stationary target
(usually a pike block) � each rank firing in turn then moving off
to the rear to reload. Each man carried up to three pistols, two in
holsters and one in the right boot.

Soon after the Italian Wars ended in 1559 with the Treaty of
Cateau-Cambr�sis, France dissolved into anarchy in the Wars of
Religion between the Catholics and the Protestants (Huguenots),
which lasted from 1562 until 1598. In the second half of these
wars, the Huguenots replaced their lance-armed gendarmes with
pistol-armed cuirassiers. Unlike the now-traditional German
reiters, these did not attempt to shoot the enemy at a distance,
but saved their pistols for the moment of impact. These tactics
proved superior both against lance-armed gendarmes and
traditional reiters. Despite this, for three-quarters of a century
there continued to be proponents of the lance and the use of
pistol or carbine at a distance (the caracole). Towards the end of
the wars, Henri of Navarre (later Henri IV of France) pioneered
the use of commanded shot - detached bodies of arquebusiers,
placed between the blocks of horse to offset enemy cavalry
superiority.

Infantry developments in the later 16th century included
a reduction in the proportion of pike to shot, and the gradual
replacement of the arquebus with the longer-ranged musket.
Despite their advantages, large tercio-style units had a major
disadvantage. This was that the depth of their formation meant
that it was impossible to bring all their firepower to bear
frontally. In 1590 Prince Maurice of Nassau became commanderin-
chief of the Dutch armies, which had been fighting a War of
Independence against the Spanish since 1568. He reorganised the
army into smaller battalions of 500 to 600 men. These formed
up in shallower formations, so were able to bring a much higher
proportion of their firepower to bear. This proved a decisive
advantage at the Battle of Nieuwpoort (1600).

Over the following decades, Maurice�s smaller battalions
became the standard organisation of most European armies,
though reduced tercios remained in use until the early 1630s,
during the Thirty Years War (1618-1648). Further developments
were made by the Swedish army under Gustavus Adolphus, who
entered the Thirty Years War in 1630. Firepower was increased
by the attachment of 12 fast-loading 3-pounder guns to each
infantry brigade. Swedish musketeers, normally deployed six
ranks deep, were trained not only to fire by counter-march like
other European armies, but also, when required, to double the
files to form a three deep formation and all fire simultaneously
(the famous Swedish salvo), front rank kneeling, second rank
crouching and third rank standing. The pikes would then
immediately charge the enemy before they could recover from
the salvo. However, salvo tactics were replaced by simpler drills
after the Swedish army�s veterans were nearly wiped out at
N�rdlingen (1634).

The proportion of shot steadily increased through the 17th
century, and pikemen steadily lost their armour � even when
it was supplied by the state, the soldiers often discarded it on
campaign. In the last quarter of the century, the bayonet started
to come into use, giving musketeer-only units better protection
against cavalry. However, early bayonets were of the plug type,
which fitted into the barrel of the musket, thus preventing it from
being fired. Most European armies retained a small proportion of
pikemen in each battalion right up until the end of our period,
when both pike and plug bayonet were definitively replaced by
the socket bayonet. This, though it somewhat hindered reloading,
allowed the musket to be fired with the bayonet in place.
Cavalry tactics also developed through the 17th century, with
the use of shallower formations, more aggressive charges and a
further reduction in armour. By the end of the 17th century, most
European cavalry were unarmoured.

These were the developments in continental Europe. On the
fringes, and elsewhere in the world, developments were often
slower and obsolete systems sometimes persisted. English armies
continued to be based on the traditional longbow and bill until
late in the 16th century, and only really caught up with European
developments during the English Civil War (1642-1651).
Ottoman infantry made the transition from bow to firearms, but,
lacking pikemen, could not stand against cavalry in the open.
Their cavalry persevered with the bow until the 17th century.
Nevertheless, the Turks remained a serious threat to Christian
Europe.

The period covered by this game was one of continuous
military evolution, beginning with the medieval forces of the
start of the Italian Wars, and ending with the stabilisation of the
Western military system into the triad of horse, bayonet armed
musketeers and artillery, which then persisted largely unchanged
for over a century.

Purestrain Win.

# ? Oct 19, 2014 09:19

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# ? May 31, 2024 22:56

Wormskull: Aug 23, 2009

Knuc U Kinte posted:

Does that higher tier than duke thing mean I need to be King to welcome them back?

Or Emperor probably.

# ? Oct 19, 2014 09:19

Buschmaki: Dec 26, 2012; ‿︵‿︵‿︵‿Lean Addict︵‿︵‿︵‿

I can expel and welcome back the jews as like, a count, did you get a liege somehow or something?

# ? Oct 19, 2014 12:20

Knuc U Kinte: Aug 17, 2004

Buschmaki posted:

I can expel and welcome back the jews as like, a count, did you get a liege somehow or something?

Yeah I became a vassal without even realising it. :iamafag:

# ? Oct 19, 2014 13:33

Knuc U Kinte: Aug 17, 2004

I assume it might be a bug to do with tribal holdings...or something. I never expelled them before so I dunno.

# ? Oct 19, 2014 13:34

Buschmaki: Dec 26, 2012; ‿︵‿︵‿︵‿Lean Addict︵‿︵‿︵‿

Expelling and welcoming worked fine in my tribal game, your poo poo's probably bugged out. Wait for a patch to fix it I guess?

# ? Oct 19, 2014 14:20

DICKHEAD: Jul 29, 2003

Bosnian ideas look sick. A lot of these ideas seem to be ideal for turning things into marches I guess?

# ? Oct 19, 2014 23:09

Larry Parrish: Jul 9, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

tfw u mindlessly buy a diplo tech during a war where you want to steal a bucnh of your rival's poo poo...

# ? Oct 20, 2014 00:30

DICKHEAD: Jul 29, 2003

a georgia game might be cool now that they have ideas

# ? Oct 20, 2014 01:43

DICKHEAD: Jul 29, 2003

Thank god they're adding all this crap. The basic ideas are too stinky for me to bother playing those guys.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 01:44

Larry Parrish: Jul 9, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

National Ideas are really loving bad and they really ought to just make it a slightly customizable set so it's at least not quite as full of dogpiss.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 03:02

DICKHEAD: Jul 29, 2003

Larry Parrish posted:

National Ideas are really loving bad and they really ought to just make it a slightly customizable set so it's at least not quite as full of dogpiss.

give every culture group their own set would be cool

# ? Oct 20, 2014 03:07

babypolis: Nov 4, 2009

i got the new eu4 expansion and i dont know what country to play someone suggest something

# ? Oct 20, 2014 05:24

Luigi Thirty: Apr 30, 2006; Emergency confection port.

outer mongolia

# ? Oct 20, 2014 05:33

OkieMurse: Nov 2, 2011; I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.

babypolis posted:

i got the new eu4 expansion and i dont know what country to play someone suggest something

The one that is out on the 30th?

# ? Oct 20, 2014 05:39

Luigi Thirty: Apr 30, 2006; Emergency confection port.

all hail Emperor Autist the Great of Carpathia, son of King Bern�t the Fat, he who made the Romans :frogout:

back to their side of the Danube

so if I want to become feudal, I need to put a level 4 fort in all my provinces? gently caress

Luigi Thirty fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Oct 20, 2014

# ? Oct 20, 2014 06:15

OkieMurse: Nov 2, 2011; I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.

Luigi Thirty posted:

all hail Emperor Autist the Great of Carpathia, son of King Bern�t the Fat, he who made the Romans back to their side of the Danube

so if I want to become feudal, I need to put a level 4 fort in all my provinces? gently caress

You can go feudal with a stonefort in just your capital.

The other provinces stay on tribal buildings/tech or whatever and when you eventually finish their fort they individually unlock feudal buildings automatically.

I took Ireland feudal with 1 stonefort and upgraded the rest slowly afterwards.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 06:39

babypolis: Nov 4, 2009

OkieMurse posted:

The one that is out on the 30th?

no the one that came before i guess that still counts as the newest one no? i didnt know there was another expansion coming so soon thats cool as gently caress

# ? Oct 20, 2014 07:12

OkieMurse: Nov 2, 2011; I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.

babypolis posted:

no the one that came before i guess that still counts as the newest one no? i didnt know there was another expansion coming so soon thats cool as gently caress

Hm if you got Res Publica and want to explore it maybe Venice or the Dutch republic or something? I admittedly haven't messed around with the features in Res Publica as much as I have with Conquest of Paradise or Wealth of Nations so one of the other guys may have an idea what showcases that expansion.

Art of War is coming out oct 30th and focuses on the 30 years war, which should overhaul the Napoleonic Era and bring several vassal and army improvements.

Also I think revolt risk is getting a serious change?

# ? Oct 20, 2014 07:34

DICKHEAD: Jul 29, 2003

Not what I would call a great victory.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 08:11

Larry Parrish: Jul 9, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

DICKHEAD posted:

Not what I would call a great victory.

waht even is this

# ? Oct 20, 2014 08:15

DICKHEAD: Jul 29, 2003

Larry Parrish posted:

waht even is this

Pike and Shot

# ? Oct 20, 2014 08:16

OkieMurse: Nov 2, 2011; I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.

DICKHEAD posted:

Pike and Shot

So over half of both sides routed?

# ? Oct 20, 2014 08:20

DICKHEAD: Jul 29, 2003

I guess irl the Bohemians lost the Battle of White Mountain so I shouldn't feel too bad

# ? Oct 20, 2014 08:22

DICKHEAD: Jul 29, 2003

OkieMurse posted:

So over half of both sides routed?

Yeah. I thought I was gonna lose in the next to last turn because my entire right flank folded when enemy cavalry overran a little fort that I had some infantry in (causing a chain reaction in my already battered cavalry nearby) and it was at 59% to 58%, but I managed to force a couple of Imperial tercios from the field just barely with the troops from my center who had so far managed to blast away every enemy that came out them.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 08:25

DICKHEAD: Jul 29, 2003

Win.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 08:26

Wormskull: Aug 23, 2009

DICKHEAD posted:

Not what I would call a great victory.

That guy looks cool.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 08:35

OkieMurse: Nov 2, 2011; I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.

DICKHEAD posted:

Win.

Holy poo poo, you gotta tag that nsfw

Is that from pike and shot manual or from Wikipedia researching the conflict?

Everything you've posted so far on pike and shot is lovely, but I've never heard of it before.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 08:56

Luigi Thirty: Apr 30, 2006; Emergency confection port.

well I can't read the german but from the latin I think it's the order of battle from the battle of white mountain in the thirty years war

# ? Oct 20, 2014 09:02

DICKHEAD: Jul 29, 2003

OkieMurse posted:

Holy poo poo, you gotta tag that nsfw

Is that from pike and shot manual or from Wikipedia researching the conflict?

Everything you've posted so far on pike and shot is lovely, but I've never heard of it before.

Wikipedia. I was looking up the battle because I suspected it was a Bohemian loss irl but I noticed in the English Civil War campaign they have you fight some battles as the side that lost in the real war (Marston Moor for one) so I figured they let you do the same in the other wars.

And yeah I had never heard of it either. It's based on the rules from some tabletop thing or something. A friend on Steam told me about it. I guess it plays like most tabletop wargames?

There's a series of vids of one of the devs playing it to give you an idea of what it's like. This type of game definitely isn't for everyone but the period is really appealing to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylRfmPRufY0

# ? Oct 20, 2014 09:16

DICKHEAD: Jul 29, 2003

Here's a funny mission briefing

# ? Oct 20, 2014 09:16

OkieMurse: Nov 2, 2011; I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.

Lol

# ? Oct 20, 2014 09:24

thuly: Jun 19, 2005; Transcending history, and the world, a tale of MS Paint and animes, endlessly retold.

Is there a playable renaissance intrigue focused mapgame? I want to do all the political backstabby poo poo they pretend to do in SCA but without any drunk dudes' fat faerie tattooed wives and also I'm the drunk dude but I'm on a computer instead of a hotel lobby.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 10:10

OkieMurse: Nov 2, 2011; I get paid to stab people with sharp objects.

thuly posted:

Is there a playable renaissance intrigue focused mapgame? I want to do all the political backstabby poo poo they pretend to do in SCA but without any drunk dudes' fat faerie tattooed wives and also I'm the drunk dude but I'm on a computer instead of a hotel lobby.

Borgia-Medici-Albizzi-Pazzi game would kick some rear end.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 11:26

DICKHEAD: Jul 29, 2003

thuly posted:

Is there a playable renaissance intrigue focused mapgame? I want to do all the political backstabby poo poo they pretend to do in SCA but without any drunk dudes' fat faerie tattooed wives and also I'm the drunk dude but I'm on a computer instead of a hotel lobby.

All I can think of is Merchant Prince / Machiavelli the Prince (remake of 1) / Merchant Prince 2 but those are more about trading and all are old rear end piles. I never really liked 'em but I also never got that into them and it was 100 years ago.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 11:41

Larry Parrish: Jul 9, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

forming the dutch republic is going to be harder than i thought. i had all of burgandy sieged down after they lost a war, but kept getting Unreasonable Demands for trying to annex or release all the dutch provinces. they got cut the gently caress down by the french, though, and i released a few random french/german cores as independent nations so my force limit is almost equal to theirs now. if im lucky Burgundian Succesion won't fire until i win the next war and take the last few provinces.

also denmark randomly conquered one of the dutch opms and i'm extremely pissed because austria didnt make them release it. i have no idea how i'm going to beat the loving kalmar union. maybe it'll fall apart or something?

Larry Parrish fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Oct 20, 2014

# ? Oct 20, 2014 21:36

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

Larry Parrish posted:

also denmark randomly conquered one of the dutch opms and i'm extremely pissed because austria didnt make them release it. i have no idea how i'm going to beat the loving kalmar union. maybe it'll fall apart or something?

probably

# ? Oct 20, 2014 21:48

DICKHEAD: Jul 29, 2003

If you have it on historical lucky then Sweden is probably lucky and will break off from Denmark.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 21:56

Larry Parrish: Jul 9, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

i managed to land the hansa and france as allies so i could probably beat up denmark if they helped. problem is that i dont really feel that its worth the trouble. maybe if they fight poland or something and lose a bunch of troops, i can swoop in and carpet siege for the warscore to get that single province

# ? Oct 20, 2014 22:08

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# ? May 31, 2024 22:56

Knuc U Kinte: Aug 17, 2004

DICKHEAD posted:

If you have it on historical lucky then Sweden is probably lucky and will break off from Denmark.

I noticed in the attempts I had at making a fool proof novgorod start, Sweden fails to break off in the first war without player help, and then gets "vassal" opinion toward Denmark until they are integrated.

# ? Oct 20, 2014 23:59

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