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Lemon-Lime posted:It's because the Mosconi is supposed to be old, so whatever paint is on the side is supposed to have partially flaked off, I guess. No, that's not correct at all.
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Jul 18, 2016 10:51
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Skunkrocker posted:According to Kuma, this is better than anything in the Workshop. I don't know how I feel about being at the top of the trash heap, but hey. Pretty sure there's already an official skin that's basically the same thing, unless that's the joke. Well, ignoring the ugly as poo poo UAR skin, those other two are miles above what was in the workshop on day 1. I haven't really checked since but I imagine better ones will keep showing up.
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Jul 18, 2016 11:37
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UnknownMercenary posted:Pretty sure there's already an official skin that's basically the same thing, unless that's the joke. Honestly I forgot that existed, I was originally making this for the Loco but the Loco wear and tear looked kinda meh.
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Jul 18, 2016 14:36
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Don't worry. If it's anything like the old CS days, the credit will be stolen by someone CSBanana and the site will refuse to alter/edit the credits no matter what.
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Jul 18, 2016 19:23
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John Murdoch posted:Okay nevermind I'm back on board with ECMs. Being able to lock down the entire atrium (upper floors, even) on HoxBreak Day 2 I will say that at this point ECMs have the unfortunate situation of being stuck with the old downsides of both C4 and sentries. You can't unlock stuff AND use them offensively. You only get two and you better put them in perfect spots. I also wish they didn't have some of the most opaque mechanics in the game at this point. I'm also fairly certain that they still carry the other critical flaw of counting as an attack for the purposes of cop aggro. So in order to get the most out of them, you have to activate them in the middle of a ruckus. Except that anything that isn't immediately stunned by them is now going to be pissed off at you. When they do work, I think they're actually pretty effective. In theory, they may have the greatest potential out of the offensive deployables, given the large effective radius, reusability, and general efficiency of dealing with spawns without cycling ammo. In practice, if your personal flowchart is kill cops -> kill more cops -> just keep killing cops then they don't really provide anything you want or need. Though now I'm thinking about an ECM/Sentry build. Hmmmmm...
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Jul 18, 2016 19:53
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John Murdoch posted:if your personal flowchart is kill cops -> kill more cops -> just keep killing cops there's other options?
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Jul 18, 2016 21:19
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John Murdoch posted:I will say that at this point ECMs have the unfortunate situation of being stuck with the old downsides of both C4 and sentries. You can't unlock stuff AND use them offensively. You only get two and you better put them in perfect spots. I also wish they didn't have some of the most opaque mechanics in the game at this point. I'm also fairly certain that they still carry the other critical flaw of counting as an attack for the purposes of cop aggro. So in order to get the most out of them, you have to activate them in the middle of a ruckus. Except that anything that isn't immediately stunned by them is now going to be pissed off at you. By no stretch of the imagination do ECMs have the "highest offensive potential." At best, you have two "oh poo poo" buttons, each on a four-minute cooldown. Given that most heists either are not very long or require moving around a lot, ECMs are of decidedly little use in practice. The point about ammo neutrality is a non-starter. Cops aren't going to die as va result of Feedback. Gotta use ammo for that.
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Jul 18, 2016 21:25
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Renegret posted:there's other options? only for people who are bad at this game. 
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Jul 18, 2016 21:26
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John Murdoch posted:In theory, they may have the greatest potential out of the offensive deployables No, they don't. ECM feedback will hard stop exactly zero enemies. You still have to go and shoot/stab/whatever every single enemy affected by feedback - in that sense they have the absolute least potential. You're supposing that the disabling/debuff power of ECMs is greater than any other deployable which directly impacts player success. The delta between "player shoots all these debuffed enemies" and "player just shoots everyone" is, at current player power, insignificant. Ergo, take a deployable which supports the second. I know you love ECMs but there's no theory which supports that claim other than research chemicals.  e: now that said, we all know the mantra of Payday 2 is "bring what you want, everything is viable" and I don't deny ECMs have some use, and hey sometimes they're fun. But if we're going deep theorycrafting nerd, no way in hell do they have the greatest potential for offensive use. Their potential at opening doors without keycards, though, is without peer. Psion fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jul 18, 2016 |
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Jul 18, 2016 21:33
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I wish you could ECM SWAT Turrets.
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Jul 18, 2016 21:45
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Bort Bortles posted:I wish you could ECM SWAT Turrets. You can, actually. Dropping an ECM anywhere on-map while a turret is live will make it switch teams and fire on cops instead of you. Unfortunately, it only lasts as long as your ECM duration - so at most, you get one minute of turret cover, and with crits/HE/explosives/molotovs being a thing, you can just destroy a turret (or send it into a repair state) literally faster than someone could deploy an ECM. I think a reasonable upgrade to ECM/turret interaction is that if you ECM a turret directly - say there's a zone on the van itself where you apply the ECM - it goes friendly for a given period of time (say, double that of the ECM duration) and then permanently disables itself, that'd actually be pretty cool. But it's a real edge-case scenario considering how simple it is to just knock a turret out direct. Psion fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Jul 18, 2016 |
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Jul 18, 2016 21:47
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For short heists with high-danger extractions like FF2 and FS2 where you have to cross streets under fire or any other situation where there's a predictable <5min window where wipes are most likely (dockbomb comes to mind), ECMs are honestly my favorite deployable. The worst part of them is that you need to invest in the decidedly lovely Covert Ops tree.
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Jul 18, 2016 22:46
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Tulip posted:For short heists with high-danger extractions like FF2 and FS2 where you have to cross streets under fire or any other situation where there's a predictable <5min window where wipes are most likely (dockbomb comes to mind), ECMs are honestly my favorite deployable. The worst part of them is that you need to invest in the decidedly lovely Covert Ops tree. And then you're stuck with ECMs for the other two days of a heist. And quite frankly, if crossing a street is too difficult to do without Feedback, I have no idea how you're getting through the rest of the heist assault waves.
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Jul 18, 2016 23:05
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I bring an ECM to Biker pro day 2. Day 1 as well if I have Jack of All Trades. It is still easily the worst deployable for loud not counting stealth centric items like body bags. ^ Feedback is a base function of ECMs now. I agree it's dumb to spec into them to use Feedback but for a short day taking one to help you rush it is in no way a bad thing.
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Jul 18, 2016 23:05
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And yet it's STILL better than the sharpshooter tree, which is only useful for aggressive reload basic
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Jul 19, 2016 00:09
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Ya'll missed my point completely. Unless I overlooked something, Feedback can affect a theoretically infinite number of cops as long as they're within the radius (and in line of sight...maybe, because wonk rear end mechanics). Essentially, the potency of Feedback goes up the more cops there are in the area. Sentries can only ever shoot at a maximum of The whole reason I stressed in theory is that there's no heist in the game which amounts to a featureless box of convenient ECM radius size where every cop on the map spawns in the same place, and generally speaking Technician's toys are "good enough" when used properly. But I was also thinking of spawn mechanics w/r/t efficiency and ammo conservation. At sufficiently high difficulty/skill level cops respawn so frequently that there's a pretty narrow line between wiping the same spawn point three times within 45 seconds or freezing those spawns in place with Feedback for the same duration*. Yeah, you'll have to eventually kill those cops, but you skipped the other two respawns in the process. (Also cops that don't shoot at you are ripe for melee kills, so that's another sideways point towards ammo conservation.) The one mechanical thing I did forget about is breaking assault waves via number of kills OR time passed and I highly doubt the time gained via Feedback stacks up to the potential kills made within the same period, especially on DW where the passive timer is particularly punitive, IIRC. On the other hand, with so many heists employing infinite assaults nowadays, those restrictions also go out the window in those situations... As they also do on smaller maps where you're not necessarily going to be concerned with waiting for a break versus just getting the hell out. Unsurprisingly, very little of this applies practically.  Sentries are all around better and Mines are more flexible thanks to the Mine/C4 split. Like I already said.*There's actually a whole weird area here with Sentries since they can generally farm more ammo than it takes to deploy them but also have a nonzero time-to-kill. Or maybe I'm just on drugs lol
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Jul 19, 2016 00:23
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For one point I like Stable Shot. The ace is not bad either although it is situational. The movement bonus in Rifleman basic is good, and High Value Target is good although the ace having a very specific range where it works is dumb.
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Jul 19, 2016 00:23
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John Murdoch posted:Feedback can affect a theoretically infinite number of cops as long as they're within the radius (and in line of sight...maybe, because wonk rear end mechanics)... Hmmmmmmm
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Jul 19, 2016 00:38
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John Murdoch posted:Ya'll missed my point completely. No, you made a bad one. We don't commit spherical heists in a vacuum, so, it's either "you made a bad point" or you literally made no point. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but I mean, if you really want to make the argument that "if you strip away everything that makes Payday and consider the existential ramifications of feedback," then, well, go for it. I would also point out that disagreeing with your point doesn't mean "missing" it.
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Jul 19, 2016 00:41
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Payday 2: shut up and click gaiden
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Jul 19, 2016 01:58
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Psion posted:We don't commit spherical heists in a vacuum Can we though?? I'd also like it to be frictionless in an infinite potential well, if possible.
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Jul 19, 2016 02:00
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it is very important to protect your hostages from the police I assure you the hostages behind the desk were very safe. Not even Tom Cruise could rescue them. I love trip mines so much now.
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Jul 19, 2016 02:00
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Renegret posted:it is very important to protect your hostages from the police I like piling them up right in front of the vault door and just plopping down a couple sentries to cover them. When the vault is open I just chill there picking open deposit boxes, sipping my coffee and reading news on my phone. And listening to the constant TFUP, TFUP, TFUP, TFUP of the sentry guns accompanied by the pained cries of dying cops. It's a good relaxation techinque.
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Jul 19, 2016 02:24
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Nordick posted:I like piling them up right in front of the vault door and just plopping down a couple sentries to cover them.
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Jul 19, 2016 03:08
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Psion posted:No, you made a bad one. We don't commit spherical heists in a vacuum, so, it's either "you made a bad point" or you literally made no point. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but I mean, if you really want to make the argument that "if you strip away everything that makes Payday and consider the existential ramifications of feedback," then, well, go for it. Well... Psion posted:No, they don't. ECM feedback will hard stop exactly zero enemies. You still have to go and shoot/stab/whatever every single enemy affected by feedback - in that sense they have the absolute least potential. You're supposing that the disabling/debuff power of ECMs is greater than any other deployable which directly impacts player success. The delta between "player shoots all these debuffed enemies" and "player just shoots everyone" is, at current player power, insignificant. Ergo, take a deployable which supports the second. My post explicitly detailed all of the tangible reasons why ECMs still kinda suck compared to Sentries or even Mines. But those latter two do require more upkeep and resources than ECMs, while covering less overall ground and being harder to coordinate compared to Feedback's more or less omnipresent effect. In that sense Feedback surpasses them. But I was also quick to admit that Feedback loses that potential (or at the very least is plain unnecessary) if you're better at killing cops (and not dying in the process) than it is at stunning them. And more generally speaking, there's a question of value between pressing pause on (let's be generous) an entire assault for a more limited time versus more consistently and steadily entangling individual spawn points/choke points with Sentries or Mines. So it sort of seems like you missed the point? Particularly the "but then I still have to go kill stunned enemies myself" thing.  On the other hand, it almost seems like we actually agree on their true efficacy when you take that bit about current player power into account?
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Jul 19, 2016 03:23
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BillmasterCozb posted:Payday 2: shut up and click gaiden I am now emailing my horrible mixtape of Quad City DJs with the entire Payday 2 soundtrack to both OVERKILL and Simon Viklund in the hope that they collaborate with them to create something to surpass Don Act Dumb.
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Jul 19, 2016 03:38
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John Murdoch posted:A dead cop that respawns X seconds later (especially one killed at or close to his spawn point) is functionally identical to a stunned cop that returns to shooting at you after X seconds of ECM Feedback Not really.
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Jul 19, 2016 04:14
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John Murdoch posted:I was considering the more abstract goal of "make cops stop shooting at me/my team (or just keep away from an objective)" of which "kill them" is merely the most common, yet still temporary, option. A dead cop that respawns X seconds later (especially one killed at or close to his spawn point) is functionally identical to a stunned cop that returns to shooting at you after X seconds of ECM Feedback. Killing cops depletes spawn waves and causes fades/assault breaks far more efficiently/often/reliably/you name it than waiting for a timeout. So no, they aren't functionally identical. So even in the abstract, thirty seconds of cops not shooting you and grabbing their heads is less overall "not shoot time" than just burning through the spawn budgets - not particularly difficult, even on Deathwish. And of course in practice we agree they're less useful in this regard, as you say. The end state of enemies being "dead" is the single best way to complete literally any objective at any time in any heist. So I'd argue that anything which contributes best to players not being dead and enemies being very dead is in fact, the best choice. It's not "temporary" any more than ECM feedback's 4 minute timer is "temporary" :p
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Jul 19, 2016 04:23
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DV Train heist General: 1. As always, no assets. No ziplines, only one thermal drill. 2. 40 bags of ammo. 4 cars (the last one is past the fence at the pallet factory). The turret is in the last one with ten of the bags. 3. The truck/boat can only carry four bags of ammo, and if things are loud you have to wait longer for it to drop them off and get back (it takes longer to keep the vehicle from being tracked). The securing location is randomized between the two possible positions for each trip- bain tells you where the next one will be when the vehicle that last left drops off the loot, so you have less time wasted to get to the new position. 4. This is the big one- all side doors on the train are magnetically sealed, and Bain can't open them. Instead of opening cars from the side, you have to go from the end of the train all the way down the middle, cracking into and then out of each vault (all of them have two doors), as well as opening cage doors inside some of the cars. A ladder will be placed to make getting into the train easier at the start, and doors between cars will be open. In stealth: 1. Random guards can spawn inside traincars in stealth- now newer players can relive the classic Train Heist experience! There will be two of them spread randomly across all the compartments, inside and outside of vaults. These guards may be visible on cameras(cameras do not alert off of things on this map). These are forced kills, and thus forced pager uses. 2. Electronic failsafes will activate as you hack your way through the train- occasionally a side door will open, or a guard will be called to check on one of the security panels. Bain will let you know when the call goes out-like the timelocks in Diamond, you just need to not be there when the guard arrives. Otherwise, it's the usual deal with hacking junction boxes- you will still only need to do each one once. 3. If/when the third car opens in stealth, a chopper will arrive to drop off three additional guards. The first two, dropped off atop the bridge, will path all around the map, including the lower spawn and the plateau near the tunnel. The third guard will be dropped off atop the sawyard roof and path back and forth up there. In Loud: 1. Additional, nastier sniper spawns, such as directly overlooking both escape areas. Overwatch (a whole ton of snipers spawn at once) can occur- Bain will warn you of this. 2. The drill will spawn in the worst places. Think river spawn, bottom of canyon, and on top of a container in the lumberyard. 3. Demo Teams will drop from a heli straight onto the top of the train. Bain will warn you of this. 4. Vaults will contain special combos. 5. The police are in control of the side doors: both doors will open as soon as you get parallel with them, opening the train up for enemies to arrive. When the first player bags a turret part, the police will close all the side doors again and try to create a choke point at the tunnel before flooding the train with enemy units. 7. Shields and cloakers will path to and camp loot securing locations as the vehicle begins to come back. 8. Additional spawnpoints, particularly by the lumberyard escape area. 9. Helicopter Turret arrives on conventional timer. 10. Winters arrives on conventional timer. Camps in valley below the train.
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Jul 19, 2016 04:25
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I remixed that skin. <--- King of the shitpile.
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Jul 19, 2016 05:08
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Psion posted:Killing cops depletes spawn waves and causes fades/assault breaks far more efficiently/often/reliably/you name it than waiting for a timeout. So no, they aren't functionally identical. So even in the abstract, thirty seconds of cops not shooting you and grabbing their heads is less overall "not shoot time" than just burning through the spawn budgets - not particularly difficult, even on Deathwish. I did say I initially forgot about that part of it. Still not a factor in infinite assaults or shorter maps though. Also coincidentally 30 seconds every 4 minutes doesn't sound that far off from how assaults already work on DW.  Blah blah blah.Psion posted:The end state of enemies being "dead" is the single best way to complete literally any objective at any time in any heist. So I'd argue that anything which contributes best to players not being dead and enemies being very dead is in fact, the best choice. It's not "temporary" any more than ECM feedback's 4 minute timer is "temporary" :p I'm not sure if I can wholly agree with that. Knowing the quirks of the spawn system, letting a black Dozer retreat off the map can absolutely be the superior option to going out of your way to kill him. Or hell, not killing the vault Dozers while doing the Overdrill. There's also the old kiting strategy for Park or the old exploit of using sentries to decoy entire assault waves away from the action. Older still was the advice to let the cops waste time getting to you, that way their replacements had to make the long walk to you too. Obviously nowadays things are different. Maybe things will get a bit more interesting again when the new difficulty stuff comes along. I'll admit part of the appeal of Feedback for me is that it's, if not a totally viable option atm, at least an interesting alternative from the hundred different minor variations of kill kill kill kill that we already have. In before someone reposts that one comic edit. I may also be a teensy bit burnt out on excessive action thanks to Biker Heist being a pretty fine distillation of all the map design issues I hate in the game.
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Jul 19, 2016 05:09
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Skunkrocker posted:I remixed that skin. Nice. Add a dumb taser sticker to it to increase its tackiness.
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Jul 19, 2016 05:26
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John Murdoch posted:
Fair. Buff/debuff is something this game doesn't really do. Of course when you compare it to the trash fire which is Killing Floor 2, perhaps that's for the best overall.
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Jul 19, 2016 05:27
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Patch Notes: • Tans have 30% resistance to SMGs, 50% resistance to shotguns, 70% resistance to pistols, 80% resistance to akimbos, 43% resistance to any weapon locked to automatic fire, 62% resistance to any weapon that can be suppressed, 35% resistance to any suppressed weapon, and are 10% more susceptible to sharp melee damage (but not piercing, slicing, stabbing, cleaving, impaling, or hacking) • Lyrics have been added to all tracks • Railings that you can't jump over have been placed around all ledges on every map • Bulldozers now have a melee attack that can put you directly into custody
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Jul 19, 2016 06:03
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You forgot the part when killing tan cops with pistols grants you an XP bonus, and also tans have 70% resistance to every pistol EXCEPT the Chimano 88, which only has 50% resistance. The Anarcho is cool and good. This debate is dumb and bad.  
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Jul 19, 2016 06:55
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Breaker legendary + judge legendary = why the gently caress don't we have golden armor yet
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Jul 19, 2016 07:01
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This thing looks cool as poo poo and kinda reminds me of Borderlands somehow. Vault Hunter Heist Pack when
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Jul 19, 2016 07:17
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I think the issue with buff/debuff in PD2 is that the devs have actually done a really good job of making guns feel like guns, e.g., they don't feel like water pistols that make the cops eventually give up with a smile and lie down because they are 'out'. The flip side of that is that we're fighting waves of cops rapid fire so they aren't on the map long enough for an X second stun to matter. We've increased EHP at the trade off of a longer assault wave, nothing gained. If they were on the map longer and each individual cop was worth more stunning would be good but then we'd all be playing Bullet Sponge Fun Time. It's telling that the only time ECM Feedback was good (and even then only "good") was when there weren't a lot of good options to melt dozers.
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Jul 19, 2016 09:35
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UnknownMercenary posted:You forgot the part when killing tan cops with pistols grants you an XP bonus, and also tans have 70% resistance to every pistol EXCEPT the Chimano 88, which only has 50% resistance. I swear this came straight out of a New Vegas mod I had ages ago, amazing.
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Jul 19, 2016 10:00
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Crabtree posted:I am now emailing my horrible mixtape of Quad City DJs with the entire Payday 2 soundtrack to both OVERKILL and Simon Viklund in the hope that they collaborate with them to create something to surpass Don Act Dumb. Is it on youtube and if not WHY
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Jul 19, 2016 12:04
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