|
it's also not a viable electoral strategy. there can't be a labour victory without the cities, and the cities are very liberal
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 14:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 22:12 |
|
|
this is what i mean lol you say, "i dunno maybe pitch socialism as the patriotic thing to do? pitch how it can help the people who live here" and labour peeps are like "the cities won't tolerate your racism and homophobia, commandant!"
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 14:40
|
|
|
Communist Thoughts posted:this is what i mean lol British patriotism is xenophobia & generally being socially regressive though. We're a loving shameful country and nae oval office with a moral compass can take pride in it except by going "oh well, at least America is worse"
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 14:45
|
|
|
Communist Thoughts posted:this is what i mean lol social conservativism is a package. it is very hard to wrap yourself in the flag at the same time as you oppose militarism or foreign adventures, for example, which is important to a hefty chunk of the urban activists given iraq and everything
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 14:49
|
|
|
Communist Thoughts posted:this is what i mean lol The working class isn't made up of the ancient rustics Glasman's crew want to appeal to
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 14:49
|
|
|
and i say this as someone who's much more sympathetic to social conservativism than most people in that i actually respect the doctrine despite disagreeing with it. peter hitchens just isn't winning any elections.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 14:51
|
|
|
im not convinced the only choice is between loser social conservatism and loser student politics *checks what country i'm in again* oh actually, never mind, thats pretty much right
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 15:11
|
|
|
Yeah my position since the 2019 election is that the British people are wrong and the British political system is toxic from root to leaf, and ideally the entire constitutional monarchy should be uprooted and replaced with republican structures. British political culture is fundamentally anti socialist because the heart of it is mysticism and hierarchy; it can't be reformed. The things people say they love about Britain and which define Britain as a culture are the same things that make it toxic.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 15:59
|
|
|
lol, you're looking at a movement that calls itself 'Blue Labour' and has 'Faith, Flag, Family' as its slogan (cribbed from the High Tory Cornerstone Group) and you're going 'but what if they aren't actually racist'. Maurice Glasman, the group's founder, argued for outreach to the loving EDL.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 16:08
|
|
|
Purple Prince posted:Yeah my position since the 2019 election is that the British people are wrong and the British political system is toxic from root to leaf, and ideally the entire constitutional monarchy should be uprooted and replaced with republican structures. Agreed. Electoralism under liberal capitalism doesn't actually work, as we are now discovering, and doubly so when you take what you mention into account. Institutions will not save us.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 16:40
|
|
|
i guess yeah the patriotic pandering is bollocks because what we've seen from two lost elections and now bernie is that the media actually has a totally dominant stranglehold on a large majority of people and gently caress all else matters by comparison. any left messaging is basically just limited to your own core group anyway. don't really know how you deal with that though, maybe some insurgent media strategy where you trick the fuckers into covering you on your terms? even so not convinced that'd work and I have no idea how you'd be doing it
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 16:42
|
|
|
Barry Foster posted:Agreed. "Now" Communist Thoughts posted:im not convinced the only choice is between loser social conservatism and loser student politics Away & wheesht. Being pro-gay rights & anti-war is not loving student politics, jesus christ.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 16:42
|
|
|
forkboy84 posted:"Now" you know what i mean. the people engaged by corbyn in the 2019 campaign were largely lefty educated student types and nobody else. its not a viable electoral coalition and it was mistaken for grassroots support. policy-wise it wasn't gay rights that hosed us, we got smashed up over israel palestine stuff that absolutely nobody else in the country cares about and isn't really down to us anyway
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 16:45
|
|
|
Communist Thoughts posted:you know what i mean. the people engaged by corbyn in the 2019 campaign were largely lefty educated student types and nobody else. its not a viable electoral coalition and it was mistaken for grassroots support. You're trying really hard to avoid the brexit-shaped elephant in the room
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 16:52
|
|
|
The simple fact is that a second referendum/remain policy was completely non-viable in 2019
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 16:55
|
|
|
Communist Thoughts posted:you know what i mean. the people engaged by corbyn in the 2019 campaign were largely lefty educated student types and nobody else. its not a viable electoral coalition and it was mistaken for grassroots support. You're right, we should all become Zionists, then surely the billionaires running the media won't find something else to attack the left for. And of course we can't solve I/P singlehandedly but nobody is saying that. But Britain is still somehow a permanent Security Council member, it has influence and not using it to fight THE global human rights travesty of my lifetime is loving trash. If to get a Labour majority we need to give up our morals that's Blairism all over again.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 16:57
|
|
|
Gum posted:You're trying really hard to avoid the brexit-shaped elephant in the room The issue is, like "bernie woulda won" the left wing mantra in the UK is basically that the 2017 loss to May was actually a victory. In order for this to still be true we must believe that we would have won 2019 without brexit on the table. Which I don't buy, sorry. Unfortunately we're probably gonna end up with Der Starmer so brexit will still be an issue after bojo resigns due to mega death and his job not being a jolly lark anymore. So we can't even test this thesis for the third time.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 16:58
|
|
|
forkboy84 posted:"Now" Yeah, I know. But it was December that really convinced me that there is no hope in politics, and likely never will be
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 17:06
|
|
|
The parralels between Bernie and Corbyn are quite poetic actually, may not be actually very helpful but they do line up nicely. In the first election they overperform against a very unpopular woman offering nothing. In the second election they are brutally slaughtered by an awful candidate but with a strong single offer, "get brexit done" "I can beat trump" Both times counting on momentum (quite literally for corbs) to exist without media support, ignoring polling and mistaking their own enthusiasm for widespread grassroots support.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 17:07
|
|
|
had the PLP actually got behind corbyn from the start and not sabotaged at every turn it might well have been a win in 2017 and it was their constant talking to the media about antisemitism that completely poisoned public opinion about him between 2017 and 2019 gently caress everyone involved in that
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 17:07
|
|
|
Communist Thoughts posted:The issue is, like "bernie woulda won" the left wing mantra in the UK is basically that the 2017 loss to May was actually a victory. I guess I just feel like brexit was a bigger issue in the 2019 general election than palestine but I suppose we can agree to disagree
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 17:07
|
|
|
Communist Thoughts posted:In the first election they overperform against a very unpopular woman offering nothing. That "very unpopular woman offering nothing" saw a massive increase in tory support on a higher turnout. May wasn't offering nothing, she was offering brexit
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 17:12
|
|
|
Jose posted:had the PLP actually got behind corbyn from the start and not sabotaged at every turn it might well have been a win in 2017 and it was their constant talking to the media about antisemitism that completely poisoned public opinion about him between 2017 and 2019 That may well be true. Tho in that case either the leadership shoulda done something about it or if they can't labour is just doomed for the foreseeable future anyway Fwiw the stuff gum is saying I don't disagree with necessarily either I just don't think any of this is clear and the party is gonna be relitigating it until we all die which luckily will be soon Whatever I think about RLB the idea of kier as leader is very depressing. He's very uninspiring
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 18:15
|
|
|
In other news, corona has reached the shadow cabinet https://twitter.com/lloyd_rm/status/1240322984587517952?s=19
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 18:16
|
|
|
Corbyn's good cardio routine better deliver the goods if the disease gets round to him
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 18:24
|
|
|
Communist Thoughts posted:That may well be true. yeah i agree with all of this pretty much. the PLP problem there was no way around other than open selections and the leadership hosed that up extremely badly. labour leader has no way to just straight up sack a load of MPs like boris did afaik even had they been willing to
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 18:28
|
|
|
but what about the empire
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 18:47
|
|
|
hell yeah who wants to add no deal brexit into the mix https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1240334736490463234?s=20
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 18:53
|
|
|
corbynism is, i think, still a doctrine with a lot of promise. the big problem is that most of the guys who carried the torch for all those years have a combination of extreme inflexibility and very strong moral compass which means that they're reluctant to do unto others as was once done unto them - sanders in america is cut from the same cloth - as well as being genuinely in opposition, which triggers a completely insane reaction from press and public. especially the confidence a lot of people have in established mass media needs to be shaken before the left can really compete on its merits. stuff like palestine will always be attacked because everyone on the left worth calling left has been involved with that cause - it's attacking us at the margins, like when macron starts saying that antizionism is antisemitism. the whole point is to taint our record retroactively. the more the press has to do outright propaganda, though, the more cracks appear and eventually the spell is pretty much broken. this happened to the non-hegemonic right a while ago, but the left is getting there imo. it's a hard fight saving a world that doesn't want to be saved, but it's necessary
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 19:21
|
|
|
V. Illych L. posted:corbynism is, i think, still a doctrine with a lot of promise. the big problem is that most of the guys who carried the torch for all those years have a combination of extreme inflexibility and very strong moral compass which means that they're reluctant to do unto others as was once done unto them - sanders in america is cut from the same cloth - as well as being genuinely in opposition, which triggers a completely insane reaction from press and public. What would you say Corbynism is? Some of the policies were very good but a lot of it was pretty succ. Balancing the budget or aiming for a surplus being a major concern of mine for example which ultimately means austerity. The extreme inflexibility also I think is what I would term Old Labour style thinking. If I had to define Corbynism it'd be as a fusion of Old Labour and youthful enthusiasm. Which was pretty much a compromise for me from the start. Nobody seems to be offering anything new though so maybe that's as good as we get. I also don't see any evidence at all of the dominance of establishment propaganda cracking, the opposite in fact.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 19:42
|
|
|
If anything social media has been a total bonanza for the right with targeted propaganda and voter suppression and the left just sorta uses it to meme, fund raise, then lose elections
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 19:46
|
|
|
The biggest problem facing Britain is the people who live there
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 19:47
|
|
|
labour existed for decades before forming its first government and then promptly split for another ten years the struggle is a long one corbynism, to me, is the coalition between organised labour and broader civil society activism in a liberal socialist direction. it's really the only coalition with any real hope of taking power for the left, at least until you start seeing pensions seriously cut and real, mass unemployment causing militancy. lots of older people have been pacified by their homes accruing value at a steady pace, but it's coming to a close as well corbynism will have its day, or there's going to be a no-poo poo communist resurgence
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 19:52
|
|
|
Crane Fist posted:The biggest problem facing Britain is the people who live there it’s always been that way, that’s why you kept looking for new people to bring back and spruce up the place.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 19:56
|
|
|
Jose posted:hell yeah who wants to add no deal brexit into the mix Boris is presumably seeing a way to shift blame where the damage from a no-deal Brexit is inseparable from the damage of a COVID-19 recession. So he can't be held accountable and doesn't have to shift his lazy fat arse to actually do any diplomacy.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 20:08
|
|
|
tories gonna tory https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1240350598781861900?s=20
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 20:15
|
|
|
Jose posted:tories gonna tory lol sounds like a plan.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 20:16
|
|
|
Jose posted:tories gonna tory "Do not worry. I have everything under control. I have issued guidance that politely requests our noble fellow great white sharks to kindly consider maybe extending a token gesture or two of compassionate, considerate, calculated thought regarding the lifespan of their meal tickets," smiled the shark.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 20:26
|
|
|
Bust Rodd posted:it’s always been that way, that’s why you kept looking for new people to bring back and spruce up the place. Turns out instead of reducing the amount of Britishness going on this just concentrated it
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 20:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 22:12 |
|
|
Jose posted:hell yeah who wants to add no deal brexit into the mix That will get the economy back on its feet straight away!
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2020 22:23
|
|
