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Night Blade posted:Welp, I suppose my big problem with the Phantom Thieves is that you're pretty much creating a new personality for the victim. I felt kind of bad that the new Kamoshida had to suffer for what Kamoshida did. Of course this could be me being overly sappy.
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Apr 18, 2017 07:30
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ROFL Octopus posted:I suppose my big problem with the Phantom Thieves is that you're pretty much creating a new personality for the victim. I felt kind of bad that the new Kamoshida had to suffer for what Kamoshida did. There should have been a confidant where you discuss the philosophy of mind and consciousness
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Apr 18, 2017 07:34
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The implication of the metaverse is that once you tear down the Palace constructed from their "distorted" desires, their original personality emerges along with all the guilt they would've felt if they hadn't been distorted. It implies that their callousness towards others is an unnatural state, a mental deficiency brought on by the choices they made in life, and that once they're cured they will naturally empathize with others and feel remorse for what they still distinctly remember choosing to do. It's an interesting perspective, to say the least.
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Apr 18, 2017 07:36
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ROFL Octopus posted:I suppose my big problem with the Phantom Thieves is that you're pretty much creating a new personality for the victim. I felt kind of bad that the new Kamoshida had to suffer for what Kamoshida did. I mean you basically make them someone who no longer belongs in jail, and then throw them in there. Testifying against Shido makes no sense because he'll never run for office again and his punishment is the agony he will expeirence for knowing what he's done. What does jail have to do with anything? The final dungeon being an allegory to sloth makes the argument that people like that are just as guilty because...reasons? There's a lot of moral grey in this aspect of the game and I would have liked more of an answer than "both rampaging individualists and mindless collectivists are bad. All you do is turn one into the other." Imagine instead of doing what they did, the big final boss calls you out on hypocrisy. How is you manipulating people any different than an adult forcing their will on others? The Gorp fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 07:38
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:There should have been a confidant where you discuss the philosophy of mind and consciousness
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Apr 18, 2017 07:43
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ROFL Octopus posted:I suppose my big problem with the Phantom Thieves is that you're pretty much creating a new personality for the victim. I felt kind of bad that the new Kamoshida had to suffer for what Kamoshida did. I completely disagree. The new Kamoshida IS the old Kamoshida, he just realized what he was doing was very, very wrong. His victims will forever have to live with the consequences of his actions. Like, even in the real world, someone who has an actual change of heart will always deeply regret their past actions. That's just kind of how it goes. Just because you yourself has changed, that doesn't mean that the damage you've done goes away.
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Apr 18, 2017 07:55
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Uh so if this is what the music in Shiho's head sounds like I think I'm actually cool with him being president of Japan or whatever. Best track of the game, easily.
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Apr 18, 2017 07:57
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Saagonsa posted:I completely disagree. The new Kamoshida IS the old Kamoshida, he just realized what he was doing was very, very wrong. His victims will forever have to live with the consequences of his actions. Like, even in the real world, someone who has an actual change of heart will always deeply regret their past actions. That's just kind of how it goes. Just because you yourself has changed, that doesn't mean that the damage you've done goes away. Final dungeon disagrees with you. The whole point of it is to claim that people who don't have a strong or warped desire are all slothful, and thereby sin just as badly. You're not curing anybody, you're setting them to the opposite extreme.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:05
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The Gorp posted:Final dungeon disagrees with you. Ah, still on only the 4th dungeon, so I'll admit I guess I don't know all of what's going on. Just commenting on what I've seen so far E: Hell, when talking about endgame(?) stuff: Whoever it was that was doing that wink wink nudge nudge poo poo in the MegaTen thread before the game came out outside of Japan about how Igor isn't actually Igor was not at all subtle, and pretty lame. Saagonsa fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 08:07
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Whoa, Makoto has got a bitchin' motorcycle. Didn't see that coming.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:10
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Uh so if this is what the music in Shido's head sounds like I think I'm actually cool with him being president of Japan or whatever. Best track of the game, easily. You say that but Palace 6's background music exists. Unless you mean his boss theme, Rivers in the Desert, because that track is sick.  .
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Apr 18, 2017 08:12
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The Gorp posted:Final dungeon disagrees with you. You should not take the words of someones Shadow as the 100% unvarnished truth. They reveal a truth but not the whole truth. This is demonstrated in both Persona 4 and 5. People are not just one thing.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:15
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The music of P5 is kickass. Nobody's gonna contest that. The trouble comes from ranking them. I just can't get into palace 6's song because of the emphasized "SEXY~" that always comes up. It's really, really good though.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:16
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Wait, when can you catch Makoto following you in Shibuya?
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Apr 18, 2017 08:17
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The Gorp posted:Final dungeon disagrees with you. I'm not so sure it is. If so then stealing humanity's treasure oughta made everyone super strong-willed and have warped desires but this expressly doesn't happen because removing Yaldabaoth from the picture erases the Metaverse completely. As Lavenza stresses repeatedly you were unjustly thrown into an unfair game you had no possibility of winning because Yaldabaoth's presence was ensuring you wouldn't.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:19
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Captain Oblivious posted:You should not take the words of someones Shadow as the 100% unvarnished truth. They reveal a truth but not the whole truth. This is demonstrated in both Persona 4 and 5. But they don't think they're sinning. They are comfortable and think they're in utopia, asking you to join them. The structure and thematic intent of Momentos is representative of Sloth, and it's everyone's palace.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:19
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Also I have doubts about that as is the antagonist's shadows shouldn't have even been there to begin with because they all expressly returned to merge with their real selves. Perhaps they were just cognitive beings?
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Apr 18, 2017 08:22
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YoshiOfYellow posted:Also I have doubts about that as is the antagonist's shadows shouldn't have even been there to begin with because they all expressly returned to merge with their real selves. Perhaps they were just cognitive beings? Based on Persona 4, if the shadow truly merged back with them, they'd be Persona-users now.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:24
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cheetah7071 posted:Based on Persona 4, if the shadow truly merged back with them, they'd be Persona-users now. To be honest you really shouldn't be considering previous persona games when it comes to how personas and shadows work. Persona 2 at least had persona users fighting their shadows, and Persona 3 FES kind of obviously had Aigis's shadow as a party member throughout the entirety of the answer
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Apr 18, 2017 08:26
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Captain Oblivious posted:You should not take the words of someones Shadow as the 100% unvarnished truth. They reveal a truth but not the whole truth. This is demonstrated in both Persona 4 and 5. Which should be obvious considering that those same people end up cheering the heroes on as they beat up God. As Morgana put it, the injustice of the scenario lay with Yaldabaoth for granting the wish, not with the people for wishing it subconsciously. Ultimately, the sins of each boss boil down to the exact same thing: treating others as something other than fully realized people. Whether they thought of them as sex dolls, ATMs, robots, or simply nothing at all beneath the waves, each of their distortions manifested as seeing others as objects to be used. And this is the same sin Yaldabaoth was guilty of: he saw humanity as a mindless sea of desires to be granted, instead of looking at them as individuals with their own agency. And that's why he had to die. This is also the difference between the heroes and the villains. The heroes never saw the villains as merely a means to an end, and when they started to (ie: focusing more on their popularity) they got punished for it.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:27
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How did you resolve the moral dilemmas inherent to altering people's thoughts against their will? You must have had the support of a philosophy student. Am I wrong?
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Apr 18, 2017 08:28
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YoshiOfYellow posted:I'm not so sure it is. If so then stealing humanity's treasure oughta made everyone super strong-willed and have warped desires but this expressly doesn't happen because removing Yaldabaoth from the picture erases the Metaverse completely. As Lavenza stresses repeatedly you were unjustly thrown into an unfair game you had no possibility of winning because Yaldabaoth's presence was ensuring you wouldn't. That's my problem. The villain has no thesis. He makes the public retain its mode of thinking and then blames you for not changing the public's heart. He classifies both warped desires and the lack of desire as sin, and punishes mankind for being a bunch of sinners. It would be one thing to argue that a lack of motivation is good, and make Momentos an allegory to heaven - only for the player to say "this is screwed up nobody want's this. You just make people want this". But that's not what happens. It's blatantly obvious that Yaldabaoth just hates mankind and views them as a nuisance. His logic is such that there's no way for mankind to act to his liking. So the big triumphant moment is basically symbolic of nothing - rebellion and complacency are both evil. The phantom thieves are rebels that took down bigger rebels (who took power plays against society) and turned them into complacent crybabies. Wouldn't it make more sense for the antagonist to view you as part of the problem after Shido? That's enough justification to fight a "god of control".
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Apr 18, 2017 08:29
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Clarste posted:Which should be obvious considering that those same people end up cheering the heroes on as they beat up God. As Morgana put it, the injustice of the scenario lay with Yaldabaoth for granting the wish, not with the people for wishing it subconsciously. What's your take on Sae then? Is it just that, while she had a warped cognition, she wasn't a "sinner" per se, and this is shown by how she perceived people as people?
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Apr 18, 2017 08:32
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I kinda wish at/near the end they would've popped Sojiro and Sae into Mementos for a couple of seconds. Just to show them the Metaverse and not leave them out of half of any conversation involving Morgana. "There's Morgana, listen to him speak, aaaand back we go."cheetah7071 posted:What's your take on Sae then? Is it just that, while she had a warped cognition, she wasn't a "sinner" per se, and this is shown by how she perceived people as people? Her perception of Justice and proper legal procedure was perverted into a game of chance she had to rig to win. Hence the bigass Courthouse Casino. Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 08:35 on Apr 18, 2017 |
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Apr 18, 2017 08:32
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cheetah7071 posted:What's your take on Sae then? Is it just that, while she had a warped cognition, she wasn't a "sinner" per se, and this is shown by how she perceived people as people? Yes. She's closer to Futaba in that sense.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:33
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You say that but Palace 6's background music exists. Talking about this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTYkUvaEsio It just fits his palace and where you are in the story perfectly. I think it's the strings.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:38
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I just remembered that I do have one minor nitpick about non-ending things, and it's that Futaba should totally get a victory splash screen when you win off a positional hack
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Apr 18, 2017 08:41
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Following the Sae talk: It also seemed to me like the SIU director/Shido/Akechi were purposefully cranking up the pressure on her so a Palace would manifest, giving them an opportunity to go after the Thieves. They backed her into a corner, making it so she had to win against the Thieves or lose everything she ever worked for, and even though Sae knows the corruption in the system, she bends to it in the name of a false justice. Bowing to that immorality makes her Palace manifest, and realizing just how far she's gotten off the path of good later on is what changes her heart back to what it should be (since her Treasure was never taken).
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Apr 18, 2017 08:42
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Zhaan posted:Following the Sae talk: It also seemed to me like the SIU director/Shido/Akechi were purposefully cranking up the pressure on her so a Palace would manifest, giving them an opportunity to go after the Thieves. They backed her into a corner, making it so she had to win against the Thieves or lose everything she ever worked for, and even though Sae knows the corruption in the system, she bends to it in the name of a false justice. Bowing to that immorality makes her Palace manifest, and realizing just how far she's gotten off the path of good later on is what changes her heart back to what it should be (since her Treasure was never taken). I read it as authority being inherently irredeemable in the Persona 5 world, and Sae's palace was the beginning of the inherent corruption that comes from being in a position of authority and choosing to use that authority. It's telling that Sae's redemption comes from her rebelling against an even higher authority figure.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:44
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Speaking of Palace 7; I've seen some pretty good comical beatings, but holy poo poo did the girls lay Ryuji out cold  . And left him slumped outside the Diet Building for the night.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:45
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Speaking of Palace 7; I've seen some pretty good comical beatings, but holy poo poo did the girls lay Ryuji out cold  My good friend Ryuji. Was an idiot one time too many.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:49
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cheetah7071 posted:I read it as authority being inherently irredeemable in the Persona 5 world, and Sae's palace was the beginning of the inherent corruption that comes from being in a position of authority and choosing to use that authority. It's telling that Sae's redemption comes from her rebelling against an even higher authority figure. Nah, I'm pretty sure she just lost her faith in justice. Ultimately the whole thing is simply her own Cognition and can't be taken to mean anything inherent about the world. The fact that someone like her would be forced to think like that might mean something broader, but the casino itself is merely her own impression of her life.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:50
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Clarste posted:Nah, I'm pretty sure she just lost her faith in justice. Ultimately the whole thing is simply her own Cognition and can't be taken to mean anything inherent about the world. The fact that someone like her would be forced to think like that might mean something broader, but the casino itself is merely her own impression of her life. This might be a reach, but I took the rigged casino as a metaphor for Japan's 99.8% conviction rate. The prosecution is the house and the house always wins -- because they only take bets guaranteed to pay off. If Sae loses by being defeated by the Phantom Thieves, that all collapses. It lines up with all the messages written on the casino walls as well.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:52
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Zhaan posted:This might be a reach, but I took the rigged casino as a metaphor for Japan's 99.8% conviction rate. The prosecution is the house and the house always wins -- because they only take bets guaranteed to pay off. If Sae loses by being defeated by the Phantom Thieves, that all collapses. It lines up with all the messages written on the casino walls as well. That's not a reach, that's exactly what it says.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:54
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Wait, when can you catch Makoto following you in Shibuya? I don't remember which days, but you'll find her reading a book outside of the bookstore and also hanging out in the square when you switch screens.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:56
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Clarste posted:Which should be obvious considering that those same people end up cheering the heroes on as they beat up God. As Morgana put it, the injustice of the scenario lay with Yaldabaoth for granting the wish, not with the people for wishing it subconsciously. I think you clarified the things I had in my head far better than I've been trying to. The curse of not being very adept at voicing my critical thoughts. 
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Apr 18, 2017 08:56
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Clarste posted:Nah, I'm pretty sure she just lost her faith in justice. Ultimately the whole thing is simply her own Cognition and can't be taken to mean anything inherent about the world. The fact that someone like her would be forced to think like that might mean something broader, but the casino itself is merely her own impression of her life. It's pretty clearly spelled out that she's forging evidence or something like that--the casino wouldn't be rigged in her cognition unless she had reason to believe it was rigged in the real world. She was guilty of more than just a warped cognition, even if she isn't as bad as someone like Kamoshida.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:58
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cheetah7071 posted:I read it as authority being inherently irredeemable in the Persona 5 world, and Sae's palace was the beginning of the inherent corruption that comes from being in a position of authority and choosing to use that authority. It's telling that Sae's redemption comes from her rebelling against an even higher authority figure. I always saw it as her palace mainly being created from her growing cynicism with the whole idea of Justice. Like, palace's are a representation of a person's distorted perception of the world, and Sae's pure sense of justice was distorted following the death of her Father and her struggles in work. I don't think her willingly and unapologetically taking part in a broken system caused the creation of palace, but the creation of her palace through her growing disbelief in justice contributed to her willingly take part in that system. I don't think every authority figure would have a palace I guess. Most police officers in the p5 world probably just exist within Mementos doing bad poo poo and following the system instead of questioning problems and doing the right thing because that's just society, and they'll have a good life if they don't act outside of it. I kinda think Sae uniquely has a palace because just like how Futaba deep down knew that she didn't kill her mum and didn't deserve to die, Sae knows that what she's accepted as justice is wrong and there are better ways to go about things. Which y'know causes the distorted cognition or something. It's a bit of a different case than the other palace's though so most of what i'm saying probably doesn't make sense.
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Apr 18, 2017 08:59
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SyntheticPolygon posted:I always saw it as her palace mainly being created from her growing cynicism with the whole idea of Justice. Like, palace's are a representation of a person's distorted perception of the world, and Sae's pure sense of justice was distorted following the death of her Father and her struggles in work. I don't think her willingly and unapologetically taking part in a broken system caused the creation of palace, but the creation of her palace through her growing disbelief in justice contributed to her willingly take part in that system. Actually I think this all makes sense and you've mostly convinced me, though I still think she was up to some shady stuff (but you've convinced me those sins aren't directly the cause of her palace)
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Apr 18, 2017 09:01
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cheetah7071 posted:It's pretty clearly spelled out that she's forging evidence or something like that--the casino wouldn't be rigged in her cognition unless she had reason to believe it was rigged in the real world. She was guilty of more than just a warped cognition, even if she isn't as bad as someone like Kamoshida. She was being pressured to forge evidence for the Phantom Thief case in particular. Because there is no evidence and her superiors wanted her to finish it up ASAP for political reasons. It's not clear if she'd ever done anything like that before, but her hesitation when talking to the SIU director implied to me that she hadn't. However, she probably had been particularly ruthless in pursuing cases before. Because she was obsessed with winning for her own self-interest and lost all sense that what she was doing had anything to do with "justice". She hadn't yet crossed the line into viewing people as poker chips or whatever though.
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Apr 18, 2017 09:05
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