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Aliquid posted:Turkey took out a full-page ad in the WSJ today telling people to stop all that worrying over what may or may not have happened a century ago. Holy poo poo, that's heinous. And the group that took out the ad in the first place is pretty bad too. 
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Apr 21, 2016 17:01
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It would barely be remembered if they weren't such assholes about it. gently caress Turkey.
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Apr 21, 2016 17:06
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Aliquid posted:Turkey took out a full-page ad in the WSJ today telling people to stop all that worrying over what may or may not have happened a century ago. quote:Armenians who were taken under arms joining onto the Russian Army, with their arms, and they thus committed collectively the guilt of being “ treacherous to the land “. Whoo boy. EDIT: Turkey is in the middle of the worst PR campaign in history.
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Apr 21, 2016 17:06
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I don't get why this is such a hot topic issue from both sides, the Armenian genocide was committed by the ottomans who were destroyed and replaced shortly after, I'm kind of confused why the Turks are so stubborn about it given that the current country has no relation to that dead empire so they have nothing to lose by handing out a simple apology, and I also don't get what the Armenians hope to get beyond a "whelp! Guess the Ottoman Empire did some lovely things in world war 1, Sorry" given how everyone and every institution responsible are long gone. Also that article in the WSJ is super lovely, like, even if he was right and elements of the Armenian population betrayed the country they were living under, you don't loving kill hundreds of thousands of innocent lives and give them even MORE reason to throw their lot with the Russians. Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Apr 21, 2016 |
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Apr 21, 2016 17:14
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Turkey very much views itself as the successor state to the Ottomans in every way. So distancing itself from the Empire would contradict a large part of its (made-up) historical narrative. Above and beyond that, from the perspective of the Armenians, it was actually the Turks as an ethnic group who were guilty of the genocide rather than any certain political organization.
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Apr 21, 2016 17:20
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I always thought the genocide was committed by the post-Ottoman government, before Ataturk took over.
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Apr 21, 2016 17:35
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The X-man cometh posted:I always thought the genocide was committed by the post-Ottoman government, before Ataturk took over. It was mainly committed during the war, as the fear was the Armenians would rise up and open a new front for the Russians
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Apr 21, 2016 17:38
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Aliquid posted:Turkey took out a full-page ad in the WSJ today telling people to stop all that worrying over what may or may not have happened a century ago. Throwback to that time like 2 weeks ago when they put up a genocide denial billboard next to a genocide memorial park http://boston.cbslocal.com/2016/04/07/controversial-billboard-denying-armenian-genocide-boston/ Stay classy, Turkey.
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Apr 21, 2016 17:39
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Al-Saqr posted:I don't get why this is such a hot topic issue from both sides, the Armenian genocide was committed by the ottomans who were destroyed and replaced shortly after, I'm kind of confused why the Turks are so stubborn about it given that the current country has no relation to that dead empire so they have nothing to lose by handing out a simple apology, and I also don't get what the Armenians hope to get beyond a "whelp! Guess the Ottoman Empire did some lovely things in world war 1, Sorry" given how everyone and every institution responsible are long gone. IIRC various commanders in the Ottoman army that were involved in the genocide were involved in much of the buildup to the modern Turkish state, with some ambiguity over how much Mustafa Kemal / Ataturk knew about the genocide or was involved in it. One thing to consider is that a lot of the Young Turks and similar reform groups wanted to turn the Ottomans into a western-style nation-state, and by the end of the 19th century they believed that to do that you had to reorganize the Empire in terms of being the nation-state of the Turks, minorities be damned/assimilated. This idea wasn't unique to Turkey, but it was a major issue for a multiethnic empire compared to, say, Japan. Couple that with the national narratives about Ataturk's defense of the country from Western Imperialism/Greece/Armenia/etc. at Gallipoli and later in the War of Independence that followed Versailles, and there's a whole lot of national pride at stake in admitting that the origins of modern Turkey involved in part the systematic genocide of Armenians in the east and that it was a bad thing. From my perspective as an American, it's similar to how patriotic conservatives in the US never want to think about Indian Removal or that many of our founding fathers were slaveholders, but with the added poke in the eye of a hypothetical nation descended from natives and runaway slaves next door whose national narratives are based around it. Al-Saqr posted:Also that article in the WSJ is super lovely, like, even if he was right and elements of the Armenian population betrayed the country they were living under, you don't loving kill hundreds of thousands of innocent lives and give them even MORE reason to throw their lot with the Russians. Genocide apologism is pretty hosed up on its own, but it's pathetic how they're using the exact same reasoning used to excuse the actual genocide a century ago to now defend it.
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Apr 21, 2016 17:49
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Al-Saqr posted:I don't get why this is such a hot topic issue from both sides, the Armenian genocide was committed by the ottomans who were destroyed and replaced shortly after, I'm kind of confused why the Turks are so stubborn about it given that the current country has no relation to that dead empire so they have nothing to lose by handing out a simple apology, and I also don't get what the Armenians hope to get beyond a "whelp! Guess the Ottoman Empire did some lovely things in world war 1, Sorry" given how everyone and every institution responsible are long gone. There are three options here, two of which aren't morally bankrupt: acknowledge the genocide, align yourself with the ottoman government anyway, and apologize; acknowledge the genocide but distance yourself from the ottoman government; and deny or justify the genocide as something righteous and good that you, the ottoman government, did to a deserving bunch of traitors. No points for guessing which one Turkey is going with.
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Apr 21, 2016 17:50
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Play posted:Turkey very much views itself as the successor state to the Ottomans in every way. So distancing itself from the Empire would contradict a large part of its (made-up) historical narrative. Above and beyond that, from the perspective of the Armenians, it was actually the Turks as an ethnic group who were guilty of the genocide rather than any certain political organization. Well sorta, but it wasn't just the Turks. Kurds played a huge role in the genocide, while losing many hundreds of thousands and also undergoing ethnic cleansing at the time. It was really very messy.
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Apr 21, 2016 18:10
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Al-Saqr posted:I don't get why this is such a hot topic issue from both sides, the Armenian genocide was committed by the ottomans who were destroyed and replaced shortly after, I'm kind of confused why the Turks are so stubborn about it given that the current country has no relation to that dead empire so they have nothing to lose by handing out a simple apology, and I also don't get what the Armenians hope to get beyond a "whelp! Guess the Ottoman Empire did some lovely things in world war 1, Sorry" given how everyone and every institution responsible are long gone. Unless you think everyone in the Ottoman empire left after WWI then no, the current people and institutions in Turkey are exactly who committed the genocide. Turkey is stubborn about acknowledging the genocide because if it's not a genocide they have more cover to start it back up again.
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Apr 21, 2016 18:27
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uninterrupted posted:Unless you think everyone in the Ottoman empire left after WWI then no, the current people and institutions in Turkey are exactly who committed the genocide. First paragraph, basically agree. The military in particular had an assload of structure and personnel transfer over. And given that the army was more or less the driving force behind the genocide that is definitely a thing. Second paragraph, what  Are the perfidious Turks (and let's be honest, Erdogan is plenty perfidious) conspiring with Azerbaijan to extinguish Armenia forever in the current kerfuffle?
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Apr 21, 2016 18:46
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Synonym of the day.
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Apr 21, 2016 21:11
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Go Go RetroTank! https://twitter.com/DrPartizan_/status/723142374386356224 And somewhat Caro-related: this is what two years in Assad's care does to you. https://twitter.com/AmjadFarekh/status/722881711814610944
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Apr 21, 2016 21:17
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GreyjoyBastard posted:First paragraph, basically agree. The military in particular had an assload of structure and personnel transfer over. And given that the army was more or less the driving force behind the genocide that is definitely a thing.
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Apr 21, 2016 23:32
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Grouchio posted:Any further discussion would be most appreciated for my big paper next week. Specifically, how did people, politicians and citizens across the globe react to the genocide? Check out your library's microfilm collection. E: http://query.nytimes.com/search/sit...0101to19151231/ ass struggle fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 01:58
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Welp, looks like things aren't de-escalating, and are instead escalating in a possibly irrevocable way. All right then, news: https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/4ftpz0/alqamishli_megathread/ A megathread, very helpful. https://twitter.com/DrPartizan_/status/723135892190314497 quote:Correction - 18 prisoners who were held by the regime have been taken out of Allya prison by Kurdish forces. Footage of the transfer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it0kzfUY_48 https://twitter.com/Avashin/status/723172566337089536 quote:reports that YPG is besieging Qamishlo airport. #TwitterKurds https://twitter.com/Avashin/status/723171727979618305 quote:large YPG reinforcement convoy on its way to Qamishlo. #TwitterKurds https://twitter.com/vvanwilgenburg/status/723223360851849217 quote:The fighting is not only in city of #Qamislo also in villages around it #syria #twitterkurds https://twitter.com/DrPartizan_/status/723287220568895490 quote:Reports of clashes in southern and western side of Hesekê city, as well as flights of military aircraft. An interesting collection of pictures from today, some may be  :http://imgur.com/a/J8Cvq So yeah, today was even more crazy than yesterday. And yeah, the Aleppo rebels should be kicking themselves pretty hard right now, because if they hadn't been constantly loving with/attacking Sheikh Maqsood then this new development would be the rebels' prime chance to align with the Kurds/SDF and then go on the assault against Assad/the SAA in the Aleppo area.
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Apr 22, 2016 02:05
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 That tank is bloody adorable 
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Apr 22, 2016 02:09
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I'll say this for the regime, they have at least shown enough restraint not to bring in the big fade5 posted:
I remain doubtful this will ever get that far. Even if it does blow up into open warfare,most of that is going to be a long ways from Aleppo/Afrin and it would be in neither sides interest to bring it over. Ikasuhito fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 02:39
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Anyway, ISIL may be trying to take advantage of the turmoil: https://twitter.com/jackshahine/status/723299711814406144 quote:Many local reports indicating of a large #IS military convoy just started from Mayadin in #DeirEzzor https://twitter.com/sayed_ridha/status/723302815146205185 quote:Source: Units from #SAA's elite Republican Guard from #Damascus are now in #Qamishli, 3 planes reportedly landed at airport in the evening https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/4fw06y/hassan_ridha_on_twitter_source_units_from_saas/ Dr_Nooooo posted:Flightradar24 suggest these reports are true. There have been at least 3 or more flights to Al-Qamishli airport today. Cham Wings Airlines is esp. popular among Shia militamen.
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Apr 22, 2016 03:08
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fade5 posted:Anyway, ISIL may be trying to take advantage of the turmoil: I think the SAA is screwed here. They're going to have to fly supplies and reinforcements to not one but two besieged outposts (Deiz-ez-zour) indefinitely. Do they hope to bomb the kurds on their home turf until they agree to...ceasefire? I really don't get the endgame here. Just another manpower suck.
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Apr 22, 2016 03:27
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Aliquid posted:Turkey took out a full-page ad in the WSJ today telling people to stop all that worrying over what may or may not have happened a century ago. loving hell. My Nana's going to go ballistic when she sees this. also gently caress Turkey!
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Apr 22, 2016 03:33
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fade5 posted:Anyway, ISIL may be trying to take advantage of the turmoil: Is it not a little war-crimey to use civilian jetliners as troop transports?
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Apr 22, 2016 05:05
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What happened to the SDF push towards Deir-e-Zour? They pretty much stalled out, and didn't even leave Hasakah Province
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Apr 22, 2016 05:08
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Constant Hamprince posted:Is it not a little war-crimey to use civilian jetliners as troop transports? Are you implying it's perfidy because it's not. Also is insanely common
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Apr 22, 2016 05:14
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Jagchosis posted:Are you implying it's perfidy because it's not. Also is insanely common It was a bitch getting past the TSA checkpoints, though. 200 guys named "Bob Smith" born on the same day in Peoria took some explaining.
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Apr 22, 2016 05:24
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fade5 posted:Anyway, ISIL may be trying to take advantage of the turmoil: I thought ISIL stopped using convoys after the US started, you know blowing them all up. And if I'm hearing about it over the other side of the loving world via a public internet forum/twitter it doesn't sound like they're being exactly discrete about it. Is there any reason why US plans -or possibly Russian, if they were in the mood- wont just bomb the convoy to shreds? Deteriorata posted:It was a bitch getting past the TSA checkpoints, though. 200 guys named "Bob Smith" born on the same day in Peoria took some explaining. And yet again the registered members of "Bob smiths born in Peoria, 1st of January 1971, club" gets unfair and excessive scrutiny when they attend their annual meeting, that the more boring mainstream clubs never have to deal with at theirs. dr_rat fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 05:32
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OhFunny posted:loving hell. My Nana's going to go ballistic when she sees this. They bought a billboard here in Chicago near a major commuter intersection and I stared at it in disbelief for quite a fuckin while. Luckily(?) nobody else Ive talked to seems to understand what the hell its about and just assumed it was some weird travel ad.
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Apr 22, 2016 06:22
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Is there any real military advantage to using a rickety piece of poo poo like that in actual combat? If it's mounted on a bulldozer chassis it's got to be painfully slow compared to a real tank or APC, and if they just made the superstructure out of random 5 cm thick scrap metal they had laying around, it would get easily perforated into oblivion by a heavy machine gun, never mind the ubiquitous RPGs... I guess it would provide good cover to the troops inside against mortar shells and rifle plinking, at least? You can see them standing near a humvee in the next frame... if they have humvees why don't they just use those? Are we sure this scrap tank isn't just a little art-piece made for PR purposes or as a side hobby by bored engineers? Because yikes, I would not want to go into combat in something like that.
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Apr 22, 2016 06:29
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I honestly thought it was remote controlled. Rumble it up to a hot zone, watch for muzzle flashes, have your snipers/artillery do the rest.
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Apr 22, 2016 06:38
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Not everyone is an expert on armored warfare.It probably seemed like a perfectly good design to whoever slapped it together in his garage.
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Apr 22, 2016 07:00
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Constant Hamprince posted:Is it not a little war-crimey to use civilian jetliners as troop transports? I know Canada has done it a couple times.
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Apr 22, 2016 07:30
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The US does it for training all the time. We flew from Alaska to California for an exercise on a civilian jet, but it was an exclusive flight with no civilians. Pretty sure we even brought our guns on board.
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Apr 22, 2016 07:35
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Liberal_L33t posted:a side hobby by bored engineers? Probably this. Engineers are loving hilarious when you give them lots of tools and materials but nothing to actually do. 
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Apr 22, 2016 09:13
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Barudak posted:They bought a billboard here in Chicago near a major commuter intersection and I stared at it in disbelief for quite a fuckin while. Luckily(?) nobody else Ive talked to seems to understand what the hell its about and just assumed it was some weird travel ad. Perhaps it's intended more for domestic consumption? "Look at the efforts your benevolent government is going to, to defend Turkey's good name abroad!" If that was the case, the adverts wouldn't have to convince anyone, so long as they were well reported on in Turkey.
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Apr 22, 2016 09:34
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Not gonna lie I've been hoping for awhile for the Kurds to clear out that regime pocket in Northeastern Syria.
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Apr 22, 2016 09:59
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I dunno so far the regime has been very successful at holding encircled airports - Deir Ezzor and that one in Aleppo.
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Apr 22, 2016 11:59
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Anos posted:I dunno so far the regime has been very successful at holding encircled airports - Deir Ezzor and that one in Aleppo. On the other hand, Tabqa. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwrROvetUtA
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Apr 22, 2016 12:04
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Volkerball posted:On the other hand, Tabqa. And the Abu al-Duhur Airbase
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Apr 22, 2016 12:13
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