Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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MothraAttack: Apr 28, 2008

Yemen president agrees to Gulf plan to resign, over a 30-day transitional period.

# ? Apr 23, 2011 20:49

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 21:52

Vincent Van Goatse: Nov 8, 2006; Enjoy every sandwich.; Smellrose

MothraAttack posted:

Yemen president agrees to Gulf plan to resign, over a 30-day transitional period.

Holy poo poo. Where's this from?

# ? Apr 23, 2011 21:05

Paradox Personified: Mar 15, 2010; SoroScrew

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Holy poo poo. Where's this from?

I googled that exact post, the first page results were promising, BBC and whatnot among them.

# ? Apr 23, 2011 21:06

Pedrophile: Feb 25, 2011; by angerbot

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/04/20114231818133946.html

"Yemen's embattled president Ali Abdullah Saleh has agreed to a deal by Gulf Arab mediators that would lead to a transition of power in the country after weeks of anti-government protests.

Tariq Shami, a presidential aide, told Al Jazeera on Saturday that the president had agreed in full to a proposal from the Gulf Co-operation Council (GCC) for him to step down.

The GCC plan would see Saleh submit his resignation to parliament within 30 days, with a presidential vote to be held within two months."

# ? Apr 23, 2011 21:10

Hekat: Aug 27, 2006; WAEE!

Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:

There are now competing and contradictory articles up on AP with one trumpeting withdrawal and another with full army invasion after an ultimatum.

EDIT: Now they are updating the invasion article to only include hospital arrivals which seem to be retreating loyalist casualties and it seems that Misrata is safe.

So what does this likely mean? There's something cruel about Gadaffi's forces leaving just so local tribes can crush Misrata (as is suggested in these articles), would these tribes really follow through with this? Or is it just a way for Gadaffi to get his forces the hell out of dodge without calling it a retreat.

# ? Apr 23, 2011 21:50

Zappatista: Oct 28, 2008; WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING IN LIFE.

Hekat posted:

So what does this likely mean? There's something cruel about Gadaffi's forces leaving just so local tribes can crush Misrata (as is suggested in these articles), would these tribes really follow through with this? Or is it just a way for Gadaffi to get his forces the hell out of dodge without calling it a retreat.

It means that paramilitaries or troops in civilian clothing are going into Misrata. A news report I heard quoted the Ghadafi regime press release as saying that while his army took 'measures to avoid civilian casualties', the 'tribes' would not do so.

# ? Apr 23, 2011 22:19

Namarrgon: Dec 23, 2008; Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

What does 'the tribes' even mean here?

# ? Apr 23, 2011 22:25

Slantedfloors: Apr 29, 2008; Wait, What?

Namarrgon posted:

What does 'the tribes' even mean here?

In theory, Libya's population is divided into several distinct tribes with individual tribal homelands throughout the country. The members of these tribes are supposed to support either Ghadaffi or the NTC depending on their tribe's decisions.

In practice, Libya's population is incredibly urbanized and mixed together, and most tribal homelands are located in the increasingly depopulated interior, populated mainly by a few die-hards and some oil towns in the middle of nowhere. There has been no significant sign that the conflict is based on tribal loyalty at all, with the exception of the Ghadaffi clan (for obvious reasons). Any "tribal fighters" that attack Misrata will be loyalist soldiers in plain-clothes.

Slantedfloors fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Apr 23, 2011

# ? Apr 23, 2011 22:41

Space Monster: Mar 13, 2009

ZetaReticuli49er posted:

there is no 'we'

We think you're an idiot. That you don't see that your father is clearly a part of the 'we' and kept you from being prosecuted is amusing.

And yeah, I keep hearing the 'it's just tribes, the NTC isn't democratic' line....getting a bit tired. Would be nice if people would actually bother to learn something about the situation before telling others how it is.

Space Monster fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Apr 23, 2011

# ? Apr 23, 2011 22:48

Contraction mapping: Jul 4, 2007; THE NAZIS WERE SOCIALISTS

Really looking forward to the next mega-update by Brown Moses or Shageletic; AP's been off the loving hook today :munch:

# ? Apr 23, 2011 23:26

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Given what's happened today I think the idea that they were withdrawing from Misrata was false, their remaining troops were either cut off or decided to go down fighting because today, from everything I've seen, they were overrun.

Misrata is still dangerous as hell, but it appears the back of Qaddafis forces in the city has been broken.

# ? Apr 24, 2011 00:03

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

What have you seen? Got any links to video or do you mean news articles?

Lascivious Sloth fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Apr 24, 2011

# ? Apr 24, 2011 00:20

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/201142316558110930.html

quote:

Forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi are locked in a fierce battle for control of the Libyan city of Misurata, amid reports that loyalists of the embattled leader had retreated to the outskirts of the city under opposition fire.

Government forces pounded besieged Misurata, the country's third largest city and the main opposition stronghold in the west, killing at least 10 people and wounding dozens of others on Saturday.

Earlier in the day, pro-democracy forces had declared Misurata "free".

"Misurata is free, the rebels have won. Of Gaddafi's forces, some are killed and others are running away," Gemal Salem, a spokesman for pro-democracy forces, told the Reuters news agency by telephone from the city.

However despite these claims, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Misurata, Andrew Simmons, said the western port city has "not been liberated at this stage".

He said that the pro-democracy forces have, however, made "major gains".

"I've been told by a number of opposition spokespeople that they have made major gains in the west of the city and that's corroborated by other sources I've spoken to.

"They have actually managed to get around the Gaddafi forces blocking them near the western gate and that is quite a significant development for the rebel forces," he said.

Soldiers captured by pro-democracy fighters on Saturday said the army had been ordered to retreat from the western port city.

"The rebels attacked us while we were withdrawing from Misurata near a bridge this morning," said Ayad Muhammad, a young soldier.

A doctor told the AFP news agency that the city's hospital has been overwhelmed with an influx of casualties, including government soldiers.

"Since eight o'clock this morning, we have received 10 dead and 50 wounded, which is usually the number for a full day," Khalid Abu Salra said at the main Hikma hospital in Misurata.

"We're overwhelmed, overwhelmed. We lack everything: personnel, equipment and medicines."

Hundreds of people have been killed in clashes between rebels and government forces in the city.

quote:

10:23am

Al Jazeera has learnt that Libyan rebels have taken over the main hospital in Misurata which was under renovation and used by Gaddafi forces as a base. Rebels are also in control of Misurata bridge near thecity's western gate.

Twitter reports have been even more aggressive, claiming several high ranking figures have been captured/killed, with dozens of enemy troops killed/captured and 8 tanks destroyed.

There are also tentative reports that Zuwara and Zawia have kicked off again. If you'll recall both of these cities along to the coast tot he West of Tripoli rebelled prior to Western intervention, but had been re subjugated after a few weeks.

farraday fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Apr 24, 2011

# ? Apr 24, 2011 00:27

Tortilla Maker: Dec 13, 2005; Un Desmadre A Toda Madre

NY Times is reporting that Saleh has agreed to step down as president of Yemen providing that he and his family are offered immunity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/world/middleeast/24yemen.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

# ? Apr 24, 2011 00:41

the floor is baklava: May 4, 2003; SHAME

Fascinating piece in the Guardian today:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/24/libya-misrata-gaddafi-uprising-rebels

This part in particular aroused my interest:

quote:

Interview: 'We thought that we needed to rescue Misrata'

The tank driver was terrified, his hair matted, face blackened with soot, torn khaki trousers and white trainers stained with blood. For around 40 days he had been pounding Misrata. Now Mohamed Ahmed, of Muammar Gaddafi's 32 Brigade, was in the hands of the men he had been sent to kill. He was captured during a furious battle near the Libyan city's technical college. He was convinced retribution was on its way.

"Please give me an injection so I can die," he begged a doctor after being taken to the hospital by rebel forces.

Instead they stitched up his arm, which had been shredded by shrapnel, and cleaned wounds on his groin and his thigh. Speaking softy, he told them what had happened. His unit had been running out of food and ammunition for four days and were cut off from resupply. He said he had received a message from headquarters in Tripoli � a message that sounded less like an order to retreat than an admission that the soldiers were now on their own. "They said if you want to surrender, then surrender. If you want to die, you die."

Ahmed, 25, who is from the town of Zliten, east of Misrata, chose to fight. Many of his unit were killed, he said. He was captured after the house he was hiding in caught fire during an attack by rebels. Before being sent to Misrata, he had been told by his commanders that some people in the city had been destroying mosques, and that foreigners had invaded.

"We thought that we needed to rescue the people of Misrata," he said. "I feel Gaddafi cheated me. I am so sorry."

I've seen one other report of captured loyalist soldiers in Misrata saying they'd gone days without food. If true it could be very big news and perhaps a sign of things to come.

# ? Apr 24, 2011 01:16

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf18xcNUgEE&feature=share

Video reported to be from inside the clearing of Misrata.

The Transitional council has also received additional recognition yesterday from The Gambia, bringing the total number of states to officially recognize it to 6.

And a picture of Tripoli street in Misrata.

http://twitpic.com/4oomtk

farraday fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Apr 24, 2011

# ? Apr 24, 2011 02:15

Megiddo: Apr 27, 2004; Unicorns bite, but their bites feel GOOD.

farraday posted:

The Transitional council has also received additional recognition yesterday from The Gambia, bringing the total number of states to officially recognize it to 6.

Why would His Excellency Sheikh Professor Alhaji Dr. Yahya Abdul-Azziz Jemus Junkung Jammeh Naasiru Deen recognize the rebels?

# ? Apr 24, 2011 02:33

neamp: Jun 24, 2003

I wonder how many people got shot in the back by their friends during such clearing operations, the way they are handling those guns doesn't seem safe.
Speaking of guns, can anyone wise in such matters identify the sniper rifle in this video, I don't know what they are saying but I assume it must be one taken from a Gaddafi forces sniper.

# ? Apr 24, 2011 02:35

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

No live blogs today, but here's some of what's going on:

Yemen:

quote:

President Ali Abdullah Saleh of Yemen has agreed to step down under a 30-day transition plan aimed at ending violent unrest over his 32-year rule.

Officials in the capital Sanaa confirmed the government had accepted the plan drawn up by Gulf Arab states.

Mr Saleh will hand power to his vice-president one month after an agreement is signed with the opposition, in return for immunity from prosecution.

At least 120 people have died during two months of protests.

The US has welcomed the announcement; a statement from the White House urged all parties to "swiftly" implement a peaceful transfer of power.

Opposition leader Yassin Noman was quoted by Reuters news agency as saying he welcomed news of the handover but would not take part in a proposed national unity government.

The opposition have been insisting they will not accept immunity from prosecution for Mr Saleh and his family.

quote:

Tariq Shami, a spokesman for Yemen's ruling party, told Reuters the party had informed the Gulf Cooperation Council "of their acceptance of the Gulf initiative in full".

Under the plan proposed by Saudi Arabia and five other states

- Within a month of signing an agreement with the opposition, Mr Saleh quits and hands over to his Vice-President, Abdu Rabu Manur Hadi
- Mr Saleh appoints an opposition leader to run an interim government tasked with preparing for presidential elections two months later
- Mr Saleh, his family and his aides are given immunity from prosecution
Washington has urged Mr Saleh to set about the transition immediately.

"The timing and form of this transition should be identified through dialogue," state department spokesman Mark Toner said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13178887

Syria:

quote:

At least 10 mourners were killed in Syria as pro-democracy protesters buried their dead after the bloodiest day yet of an uprising against the county's authoritarian government. Two politicians also resigned from parliament in a sign of growing unease at the government's use of lethal force.

Nasser al-Hariri, a member of Syria's parliament from Deraa, told al-Jazeera Arabic TV: "I can't protect my people when they get shot at so I resign from parliament." Minutes later a second politician, Khalil al-Rifae, also from Deraa, resigned live on the channel.

The resignations � the first during this crisis � were a significant sign of unease at escalating violence. Security forces again opened fire at funerals for Friday's victims, where large crowds of mourners were chanting anti-government slogans.

A witness in Izraa told the Observer that five people from nearby Dael and Nawa were shot dead at the entrance to the town . "They were attempting to come to the funerals of 10 people killed on Friday," he said. He insisted the security forces and army were responsible. News agencies reported that at least two mourners had been shot dead by snipers in Douma, a suburb of Damascus, and three in the district of Barzeh.

Human rights organisations and activists said at least 76 people and possibly more than 100 were killed during the largest and bloodiest protests yet on Friday, as the unrest continued into its eighth week. Many were shot in the head and chest, and mosques were used as hospitals. Al-Jazeera reported accounts of Syrian security officers entering hospitals and clinics to take the dead and injured to military hospitals in an apparent attempt to cover up casualty figures.

Local human rights organisations claimed some Syrian Christians were among the dead. Christians, who make up around 10% of Syria's population of 22 million, are largely supportive of the regime due to fears of a backlash by the Sunni Muslim majority. The claims could not be independently verified. Easter celebrations, in which parades of children and families usually flood the streets of Damascus's old city, have been cancelled. It is unclear whether this was a decision by Christian leaders or if the government had put pressure on them in a bid to prevent large gatherings.

With the death toll since 18 March now above 280, international condemnation of Syria has begun to grow. Barack Obama issued a strongly worded statement calling the violence "outrageous" and said that it should "end now". As in other protests that have swept the Arab world, social media have been one of the powerful tools of protest, subverting official channels. Amateur video footage of bloody scenes continued to emerge from the protests.

quote:

As the situation escalates, Syrian observers said the government had made it clear that it intended to cling to power with the use of violence, despite attempts at reform. "They want to push demonstrators to the limits," said Ayman Abdel Nour, a Syrian dissident based in Dubai. He still believed that President Bashar al-Assad had time to show that he was serious about reform.

But after Assad recently lifted the country's state of emergency, abolished the security court and appointed new governors in Latakia, Homs and Deraa, other commentators said he was running out of options.

Protesters have responded with a new round of chants. "We want the toppling of the regime," said a resident of Ezraa, a small southern town that saw one of the highest death tolls on Friday. "The blood of our martyrs makes this our responsibility now."

Activists acknowledged some concerns that protesters, who have been overwhelmingly peaceful so far, will be tempted to take up arms in self-defence. Syrians say weapons licences are hard to come by for non-Baath party members, but many people in the tribal southern region own guns.

The regime still retains the loyalty of the military and leading businessmen as well as many among the country's minority communities. In the streets of central Damascus, many say they would rather stick with stability than take a risk on what would come if Assad's regime was to fall.

Syria's government, which has continued to blame the deaths on armed gangs, expressed "regret" at Obama's sharp condemnation of Friday's violence. "It isn't based on a comprehensive and objective view of that is happening," it said in a statement posted on the official Sana website.

It added that Syria viewed Obama's comments as "irresponsible".

The statement came as al-Jazeera correspondent Cal Perry was ordered to leave the country, adding to an almost total blackout on independent and foreign media.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/23/syria-mps-resign-mourners-die

Libya

quote:

Forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi claim to have come under fierce attack as they tried to retreat from the rebel-held city of Misrata.

The Libyan government earlier said Nato air strikes may force it to withdraw from the port city, 120 miles east of Tripoli, and let tribes loyal to Gaddafi deal with rebels.

Early this morning, Nato bombs hit what appeared to be a bunker in Gaddafi's Tripoli compound. Government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim said three people were killed by the "very powerful explosion" in a car park.

Reuters reporters said they saw two large holes in the ground where the bombs had penetrated what appeared to be an underground bunker.

The strike came after the most senior American military officer admitted the conflict was heading towards a "stalemate" despite more than a month of allied strikes against Gaddafi's forces.

Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the US military's joint chiefs of staff, said Gaddafi's ground forces had been degraded by 30% to 40%.

But he warned that Nato forces faced a protracted military engagement in the civil war-torn country.

"It's certainly moving towards a stalemate," Mullen told American troops during a visit to Iraq's capital, Baghdad, on Friday. "At the same time, we've attrited somewhere between 30% and 40% of his main ground forces, his ground force capabilities. Those will continue to go away over time."

He said the allies would "put the squeeze" on the Libyan dictator "until he's gone".

"Gaddafi's gotta go," he said.

A group of wounded Libyan soldiers captured by rebels in Misrata, the last large city held by rebels in the west of the country, said they had come under fierce attack from anti-Gaddafi forces as the army tried to retreat.

"We have been told to withdraw. We were told to withdraw yesterday," one soldier, Khaled Dorman, told Reuters.

Ayad Muhammad, another soldier, said: "The rebels attacked us while we were withdrawing from Misrata near a bridge this morning,"

Another serviceman told the news agency the Libyan government had lost control over Misrata, the country's third largest city.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/23/gaddafi-forces-attacked-misrata

Bahrain:

quote:

Bahrain's main opposition party says authorities have demolished 16 mosques as part of crackdown on Shiite dissent in the Sunni-ruled Gulf kingdom over the past month. Al Wefaq says 30 Shiite places of worship � including 16 mosques � have been destroyed since martial law was declared last month.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9611281

quote:

Human rights groups have expressed mounting concern about a security crackdown under way in Bahrain.

Physicians for Human Rights (PHR) says there have been attacks on physicians, patients and unarmed civilians since protests began in February.

It says at least 32 medics have been arrested - some by masked men in the middle of the night. It believes they were targeted because they have seen evidence of abuses by security forces.

The government denies the reports.

On Thursday, British Foreign Secretary William Hague said reports from Bahrain of arrests and torture of detainees were "extremely troubling".

He called on the government to act in accordance with the law and to investigate any abuses fully and transparently.

quote:

Hundreds of people have been detained and others have lost their jobs for taking part in protests.

Amnesty International says many of those arrested are being held incommunicado: "In virtually all cases, weeks after their arrest, their whereabouts remain unknown."

Human rights groups have also documented four deaths in custody.

The International Committee of the Red Cross, which visits detainees in conflict situations, has been pushing since mid-March to be allowed to see those detained in Bahrain.

But so far the Bahraini authorities have not granted it permission.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13165821

And here's some other articles examining some of the ramifications of recent developments.

Looking at the role of women during the Arab revolutions and afterwards:

quote:

From the earliest rumblings of discontent in Tunisia at the turn of the year, it was clear that old images of Arab women as deferential, subservient and generally indoors would have to be revised. From the highly-educated Tunisian female elite of doctors, barristers and university professors to the huge numbers of unemployed female graduates, women were key players in the uprising that launched the Arab spring.

In Cairo, they were instrumental not just in protests but in much of the nitty-gritty organisation that turned Tahrir Square from a moment into a movement. Women were involved in arranging food deliveries, blankets, the stage and medical help. In Yemen, it was a young woman, Tawakul Karman, who first led demonstrations on a university campus against the long rule of Ali Abdullah Saleh. Karman emerged as one of the leaders of a revolution still yet to run its course.

In Bahrain, women were among the first wave that descended on Pearl Square in the capital � some with their children � to demand change. And the Bahraini movement has latterly found a figurehead in Zainab al-Khawaja, the woman who went on hunger strike in protest at the beating and arrest of her father, husband and brother-in-law. "Women have played a hugely influential role this time and put themselves in danger," said Nabeel Rajab, president of the Bahrain Centre for Human Rights. "They treated the injured in the streets and nursed them in their homes when they were too afraid to go to hospital."

In Libya, women were at the vanguard too, when mothers, sisters and widows of men killed in a prison massacre in 1996 protested outside a courthouse in Benghazi after their lawyer was arrested.

"Someone gave me a placard and I was not even sure what to do with it because we had never done anything like this before," said Muna Sahli, a literature lecturer at Garyounis University in Benghazi, whose brother-in-law was killed in the prison slaughter. "I even forgot to cover my face so I wouldn't be identified."

In Syria and Yemen, more conservative societies, it took longer for women to join the movement en masse. In both countries, it took leadership blunders by the authorities to draw them in. In Syria, hundreds of women marched through the town of Beida to deplore the indiscriminate detention of many of their menfolk. In Yemen, when president Saleh said it was un-Islamic for male and female protesters to march side by side, thousands of women poured on to the streets just to prove him wrong. Women continue to support the demonstrations, working as nurses in makeshift hospitals and in ambulances, cooking food, delivering speeches and singing songs at the demonstrations. To the right of the main stage in Tagheer (meaning "change") Square, there is a large cordoned-off area filled with hundreds of women, most of them wearing black abayas, and small children.

quote:

The Arab spring was not about gender equality. Women in all countries involved say that. But many are alarmed that their efforts risk going unrewarded, and that men who were keen to have them on the streets crying freedom may not be so happy to have them in parliament, government and business boardrooms. As one Egyptian protester told Catherine Ashton, the EU foreign policy supremo, during a recent visit to Tahrir Square: "The men were keen for me to be here when we were demanding that Mubarak should go. But now he has gone, they want me to go home."

Egyptian women express concern that when the dust settles on their revolution and a new parliament is elected in November, there may be just as few female MPs as there were in the Mubarak era. The gender gap is gaping in Egypt. There were no references to equality in the new Egyptian constitution passed last month. Rebecca Chiao, founder of a women's rights group called Harassmap, said that there was already a backlash against gender equality. "There's a propaganda campaign against us, saying now is not the time for women's rights. I'm concerned about that," she said.

"If you ask someone if they want gender equality, that's a loaded term here. Do you mean all women should be like men? Most would say no. If you mean women have choice and equal protection under the law, most would say yes."

Tunisia's feminist lobby argues that the real battle is only beginning now, post-revolution. Of the country's young, well-educated unemployed � whose grievances sparked the uprising � two thirds are women. There is still gross inequality in pay and in inheritance laws favouring sons. But the first battle is women in politics. Earlier this month, the commission reforming Tunisia's electoral landscape for the July elections voted that there must be 50% parity between men and women on electoral lists � and not just women on the bottom rung: they must alternate with male candidates from the top of each party selection and share the most important roles.

One of the biggest opposition parties, the leftwing PDP, already has a female leader, the feminist biologist Maya Jribi. Campaigners hope others will follow.

Leila Hamrouni, a secondary school teacher from a poor suburb of Tunis, is likely to run as a candidate for the party Ettajdid. She said: "We've got to really fight for 50% equality in the elections. I'm worried it won't be properly enforced. The smaller parties say it's great in principle but in practice there aren't enough 'competent' women. What rubbish! Even the rural areas have women lawyers, teachers and doctors.

"Under Ben Ali, there were an awful lot of men who were far from brilliant, yet as soon as we talk of women in politics, everyone's asking about competence. Ben Ali used the issue of women's rights as propaganda for the west while stifling liberties and denying democracy. Some men might say to us now, 'Look what you've got. What more do you want?' It's difficult to explain that behind the orchestrated propaganda there is still so much to fight for."

Khadija Cherif, a sociologist and university professor, is a member of the influential Association of Women Democrats and sits on the commission currently drawing up political rules for the July elections. Around 20% of the commission is female.

"The women's role has been huge, not just in the revolution, but for years before it, from supporting the miners' strikes to staging sit-ins in textile factories. That role must now be recognised through gender equality on the political landscape."

One concern on the secular left is that the return of Tunisia's Islamist parties could roll back the country's secular women's rights. The once outlawed Islamist party, Ennahda, denies it plans to limit women's rights, joining other parties in voting through the 50% gender equality rules for the election. Cherif said: "We're working with the Islamist parties. They supported us on parity. And they know we are staying vigilant."

But elsewhere, women are adamant: this revolution was about regimes, not gender. "Men and women, we are all working for the same thing in this revolution," said Mervet el-Zuki, a Benghazi resident. "We want to be able to speak our minds, to be ourselves, to be Libyans. We want freedom in all sectors: psychologically, socially, economically. We want a happy ending, to be rid of this maniac family that controlled everything we did."

Bahraini Noor Jilal added: "Women are not calling for their own rights but those of everyone."

But Faizah Sulimani, 29, a protest leader in Yemen, hints that even though they are not calling for equality, women in Yemen have found themselves being taken much more seriously by men because of the impressive way they have contributed to the protest movement.

"Our demands are somehow similar to men, starting with freedom, equal citizenship, and giving women a greater role in society," she says. "Women smell freedom at Change Square where they feel more welcomed than ever before. Their fellow [male] freedom fighters are showing unconventional acceptance to their participation and they are actually for the first time letting women be, and say, what they really want."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/22/women-arab-spring

The after-math of President Saleh bowing out:

quote:

Those currently aligned against Saleh represent a diverse group of unlikely allies. Youth and civil society activists originally initiated the anti-regime protests and stand at their symbolic core. But over time and for various reasons -- including genuine support for democratic change, opposition to Saleh�s heavy-handed response to the protests, and political opportunism -- established opposition parties, Huthis rebels, some southern separatists, religious leaders, prominent tribal sheikhs, businessmen, and army commanders have joined the protests. Although youth and civil society activists welcome assistance in ousting Saleh, they are legitimately skeptical of the role that some of these forces may play in the future.

Among these latecomers is the country�s major opposition bloc, the Joint Meeting Parties, a conglomeration of five opposition parties, including the country�s main Islamist opposition, Islah, and the Yemeni Socialist Party. Although the JMP eventually joined the protests and now advocates for Saleh�s immediate departure, some of its members -- particularly Islah�s leadership -- enjoy deep personal, financial, and political connections with the current regime. These connections raise questions about the ability or desire of the JMP to faithfully negotiate on behalf of those protesting on the streets. Liberal Yemenis are also deeply concerned about the future role of the Salafi wing of Islah, headed by the powerful cleric, Abdulmajid al-Zindani.

More significantly, the protest movement has increasingly become a battleground for powerful forces within Saleh�s own tribal confederation, Hashid. The sons of Abdullah Bin Hussein al-Ahmar, the late preeminent sheikh of Hashid, have been particularly vocal opponents of Saleh. Hamid al-Ahmar, a member of Islah and a powerful businessman, has for years called for Saleh to leave office and was the first in his family to support the protest movement. His brother Hussein joined shortly thereafter, resigning from Saleh�s party and rallying tribal supporters to the capital to join the demonstrators. Following the March 18 shooting of 52 protesters in Yemen�s capital of Sana�a, their older brother Sadik, the current leading sheikh of Hashid, added his voice to calls for Saleh�s ouster. Then, on March 22, Ali Muhsin al-Ahmar -- a powerful military commander and member of Saleh�s tribe whose influence makes him the second-most powerful man in the country -- defected to the protesters, rendering a decisive blow to Saleh. The sons of Sheikh al-Abdullah and individuals such as Muhsin have felt increasingly marginalized by the concentration of power and wealth around Saleh�s son, Ahmed, and nephews. By abandoning Saleh now, they have shifted power within Hashid away from Saleh�s family and toward themselves.

quote:

As both sides send forces to Sana�a in preparation for a potential confrontation, security conditions outside the capital are rapidly deteriorating. The countryside is being left in the hands of tribal sheikhs or popular committees, exposing parts of the country susceptible to al Qaeda infiltration. Indeed, armed militants have reportedly seized several towns in the governorates of Abyan. Groups supporting an independent state in south Yemen have strengthened their control over parts of the south, while the Huthi rebels are in full control of Saada.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/67699/april-longley-alley/yemen-on-the-brink?page=show

Kaplan on Syria:

quote:

Syria at this moment in history constitutes a riddle. Is it, indeed, prone to civil conflict as the election results of the 1940s and 1950s indicate; or has the population quietly forged a national identity in the intervening decades, if only because of the common experience of living under an austere dictatorship? No Middle East expert can say for sure.

Were central authority in Syria to substantially weaken or even break down, the regional impact would be greater than in the case of Iraq. Iraq is bordered by the strong states of Turkey and Iran in the north and east, and is separated from Saudi Arabia in the south and Syria and Jordan to the west by immense tracts of desert. Yes, the Iraq war propelled millions of refugees to those two latter countries, but the impact of Syria becoming a Levantine Yugoslavia might be even greater. That is because of the proximity of Syria's major population zones to Lebanon and Jordan, both of which are unstable already.

quote:

Remember that Lebanon, Jordan, and Israel are all geographically and historically part of Greater Syria, a reason that successive regimes in Damascus since 1946 never really accepted their legitimacy. The French drew Lebanon's borders so as to bring a large population of mainly Sunni Muslims under the domination of Maronite Christians, who were allied with France, spoke French, and had a concordat with the Vatican. Were an Alawite regime in Damascus to crumble, the Syria-Lebanon border could be effectively erased as Sunnis from both sides of the border united and Lebanon's Shiites and Syria's Alawites formed pockets of resistance. The post-colonial era in the Middle East would truly be closed, and we would be back to the vague borders of the Ottoman Empire.

What seems fanciful today may seem inevitable in the months and years ahead. Rather than face a "steadfast" and rejectionist, albeit predictable, state as the focal point of Arab resistance, Israel would henceforth face a Sunni Arab statelet from Damascus to Hama -- one likely influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood -- amid congeries of other fiefdoms. The unrest in Syria brings the Middle East perhaps to a precipice. Peaceful or not, the future of the region will be one of weakened central authority. Mesopotamia at least has a historic structure, with its three north-south oriented ethnic and sectarian entities. But Greater Syria is more of a hodgepodge.

For most of history, prior to the colonial era, Middle Eastern borders mattered far less than they do now, as cities like Aleppo in northern Syria and Mosul in northern Iraq had more contact with each other than with the respective capitals of Damascus and Baghdad. The ruins of Hatra, southwest of Mosul in Iraq, a Silk Road nexus of trade and ideas that reached its peak in the second and third centuries A.D., attest to a past and possible future of more decentralized states that could succeed the tyrannical perversions of the modern nation-state system. Hatra's remains reflect the eclectic mix of Assyrian, Hellenistic, Parthian, and Roman styles that set the stage for early Islamic architecture. Then there are the ruins of Dura-Europos, a Parthian caravan center founded in 300 B.C., halfway between Syria and Mesopotamia and known as the "Pompeii of the East." Frescoes from the synagogue at Dura-Europos grace the halls of the National Museum in Damascus. Both these sets of ruins have a vital political significance for the present, for they indicate a region without hardened borders that benefited from the free flow of trade and information.

But the transition away from absolutist rule in the Middle East to a world of commercially oriented, 21st-century caravan states will be longer, costlier, and messier than the post-1989 transitions in the Balkans -- a more developed part of the Ottoman Empire than Greater Syria and Mesopotamia. The natural state of Mesopotamia was mirrored in the three Ottoman vilayets of Kurdish Mosul, Sunni Baghdad, and Shiite Basra. The natural state of Greater Syria beyond the constellation of city-states like Phoenicia, Aleppo, Damascus, and Jerusalem is more indistinct still.

European leaders in the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th were engrossed by the so-called Eastern Question: that is, the eruptions of instability and nationalist yearnings in the Balkans and the Middle East caused by the seemingly interminable, rotting-away death of the Ottoman Empire. The Eastern Question was eventually settled by the cataclysm of World War I, from which the modern Arab state system emerged. But a hundred years on, the durability of that post-Ottoman state system should not be taken for granted.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/04/21/syriana?page=0,1

An overview of the Arab spring:

quote:

As I look back at these three months of protest and try to find the unifying theme, I think back to the formulation of my mentors. There is a yearning for dignity, as Scowcroft said, and it is producing a political awakening. Of the many words chanted by the crowds in Tahrir Square, one of the most powerful was karama, or dignity. My favorite summary of the emotional core of this movement comes from my colleague Nora Boustany, a Lebanese journalist, who translated for me an Arab proverb: "The artery of shame has ruptured."

For Americans, that must seem like a strange concept. They are shameless, in the anthropological sense. But from the time I began covering the Middle East in 1980, I have seen what I now recognize was a shamed and broken political culture -- a culture of passivity and resignation, which often expressed itself in negative and self-destructive acts of political violence and accepted authoritarian governments and the slogans they used to justify themselves. As my Arab friends say, that was the culture of 1967 -- the culture of defeat, in which Arabs, with momentary exceptions, found themselves the pawns of a tiny but potent Israel and its superpower patron.

This is the culture that ended in 2011. That's not to say that what lies ahead is necessarily benign, from an American standpoint. But Arabs are now embracing a culture of activism and self-determination, as opposed to one of passivity and victimization. They are defying army tanks, secret police, gangs of roving thugs, and their own ethnic and religious differences to unite in revolt.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/04/22/what_happens_when_the_arab_spring_turns_to_summer?page=0,2

And a look at the liberators of Libya:

quote:

The Middle East. A man with a car fashioned into a bomb. He disguises his intent by joining a funeral cortege passing the chosen target. At the last minute the man swings the vehicle away, puts his foot down and detonates the propane canisters packed into the car.

It all sounds horrifyingly familiar. Mahdi Ziu was a suicide bomber in a region too often defined by people blowing up themselves and others. But, as with so much in Libya, the manner of Ziu's death defies the assumptions made about the uprisings in the Arab world by twitchy American politicians and generals who see Islamic extremism and al-Qaeda lurking in the shadows. Ziu's attack was an act of pure selflessness, not terror, and it may have saved Libya's revolution.

In the first days of the popular uprising he crashed his car into the gates of the Katiba, a much-feared military barracks in Benghazi, where Muammar Gaddafi's forces were making a last stand in a hostile city. At that time the revolutionaries had few weapons, mostly stones and "fish bombs" � TNT explosive with a fuse that is more usually dropped in the sea off Benghazi to catch fish. The soldiers had heavy machine guns and the revolutionaries, often daring young men letting loose their anger at the regime for the first time, were dying in their dozens as they tried to storm the Katiba.

Then Ziu arrived, blew the main gates off the barracks and sent the soldiers scurrying to seek shelter inside. Within hours the Katiba had fallen.

Ziu was not classic suicide-bomber material. He was a podgy, balding 48-year-old executive with the state oil company, married with daughters at home. There was no martyrdom video of the kind favoured by Hamas. He did not even tell his family his plan, although they had seen a change in him over the three days since the revolution began.

"He said everyone should fight for the revolution: 'We need Jihad,'" says Ziu's 20-year-old daughter, Zuhur, clearly torn between pride at her father's martyrdom and his loss. "He wasn't an extreme man. He didn't like politics. But he was ready to do something. We didn't know it would be that."

Ziu may have been unusual as a suicide bomber, but he was representative of a revolution driven by dentists and accountants, lorry drivers and academics, the better off and the very poor, the devout and secular. Men such as Abdullah Fasi, an engineering student who had just graduated and was in a hurry to get out of a country he regarded as devoid of all hope until he found himself outside the Katiba stoning Gaddafi's soldiers. And Shams Din Fadelala, a gardener in the city's public parks who supported the Libyan leader up to the day government soldiers started killing people on the streets of Benghazi. And Mohammed Darrat, who spent 18 years in Gaddafi's prisons and every moment out of them believing that one day the people would rise up.

Fasi joined the revolution on day two. The protests began after sunset on 15 February outside the police headquarters to demand the release of a lawyer, Fathi Terbil, who was arrested over a lawsuit against the government on behalf of the relatives of 1,200 men killed by Gaddafi's forces at Abu Salim prison in 1996. Relatives of the dead men and lawyer friends of Terbil started to march. As they moved through the city, the crowd swelled and chanted slogans from the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions. The police attacked them with water cannon and the government unleashed young men wielding broken bottles and clubs against the protesters. All that did was to bring thousands more on to the streets the next day, including Fasi.

"At first we didn't ask Gaddafi to leave," he says. "We just wanted a constitution, justice, a better future. Then they came shooting and beating the people. After that we said Gaddafi must leave."

"I knew I had to go to the Katiba. They were shooting us. In front of me they killed seven people in those four days. The last day was very very hard. People started to get TNT from the other camps and make the fish bombs. Every five minutes I heard a fish bomb explode."

Then Ziu charged the Katiba's gates on his kamikaze mission. What followed wasn't pretty. "(The revolutionaries) were beating Gaddafi people they captured, it's true. When they captured a Gaddafi soldier they said: 'What was this man doing? He was shooting us.' Gaddafi's soldiers wanted to kill anyone. They were using anti-aircraft weapons on humans. It cut people in half. People were angry," says Fasi. So angry that some of Gaddafi's soldiers were lynched. At least one was beheaded.

With the battle of the Katiba won and the revolutionaries in control of Benghazi, Fasi gravitated toward the city's courthouse on the dilapidated Mediterranean sea front, a mix of ornate Italian colonial-era buildings and ugly but functional modern constructs. The revolutionaries had burned the court and the neighbouring internal security offices as symbols of repression. Now they were rallying centres and something of a shrine. Relatives of Gaddafi's many victims over four decades pinned up hundreds of pictures of the dead on the courthouse walls alongside those killed around the Katiba. Ziu's portrait is there as an heroic martyr. While some mourned, others let loose with graffiti plastered across Benghazi declaring that the 42-year nightmare was nearly over.

Benghazians still marvel at their own courage in taking on the regime. Failure would almost certainly have meant execution, years in one of Gaddafi's brutal prisons or exile. Yet otherwise ordinary people inspired each other to take the risk, not for an ideological cause or over some ethnic divide but to enjoy the basic freedoms few have ever known.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/23/libya-benghazi-gaddafi-revolution

Shageletic fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Apr 24, 2011

# ? Apr 24, 2011 02:36

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Kaplan and Ignatius? Oy vey.

edit for content: A nice video out of Libya of fighters singing in Amazigh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilv7PAK1EcU

# ? Apr 24, 2011 02:39

Illegal Clown: Feb 18, 2004

Freigeist posted:

I wonder how many people got shot in the back by their friends during such clearing operations, the way they are handling those guns doesn't seem safe.
Speaking of guns, can anyone wise in such matters identify the sniper rifle in this video, I don't know what they are saying but I assume it must be one taken from a Gaddafi forces sniper.

I'm not sure what that rifle is, but it could be a Russian SV-98. That's just a guess since I can't get a good look at it.

# ? Apr 24, 2011 03:05

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

Xandu posted:

Kaplan and Ignatius? Oy vey.

edit for content: A nice video out of Libya of fighters singing in Amazigh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilv7PAK1EcU

That song should be the official Libya revolution theme song.

quote:

Where do you want us to go?
Give me your hand
So we can go to Benghazi
The City of Freedom
So we can go to Zawiya
The City of Marytyrs
So we can go to Zintan
The City of Knights
And in the end Libya will be free, and we will live in love and tranquility

If things are as they say in Misrata and the Pro-gad forces are as desperate and cut-off from resupply as is reported then this might be the shift we were waiting for.

# ? Apr 24, 2011 03:27

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Lascivious Sloth posted:

If things are as they say in Misrata and the Pro-gad forces are as desperate and cut-off from resupply as is reported then this might be the shift we were waiting for.

This is why I'm leery of anyone calling this a stalemate at this point. While the situation in Ajdabiya may be one, in other places it's not clear what the condition of Ghaddafis forces is. The idea the people will rise gets a lot of flak considering how frequently it is used and misused, but it is also what literally happens in revolutionary situations. It's no guarantee of victory, but the continuing attrition of Ghaddafis army is simply not sustainable. If Misrata's port opens to free resupply the question will rapidly become how much force can Ghaddafi command in the area. It's fairly apparent now they can hold Misrata, the question is if and where the can advance to surrounding cities. This is not the same terrain as the road between Ajdabiya and Sirte, it is a far more significant test for both sides.

Edit//
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2W8UGbsoE8&feature=channel_video_title

Video of the tallest building in Misrata after being cleared by the revolutionaries.

farraday fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Apr 24, 2011

# ? Apr 24, 2011 03:50

mr. nobody: Sep 25, 2004; Net contents 12 fluid oz.

quote:

AP reports: Libya's deputy foreign minister, Khaled Kaim, said troops have halted operations in Misurata to enable tribal elders to negotiate with the rebels.

If the rebels don't surrender in the next two days, armed tribesmen will fight them in place of the army, he said.

from http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-24?sort=asc

That's a little different than the government's previous statement in which they said they'd leave it up to the tribes to sort out.

# ? Apr 24, 2011 08:13

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Been a busy Easter weekend for me, the only news coming from Misarata at the moment is claims from ChangeInLibya that "Gaddafi militias dressed up as civilians are starting to attack the city from its southern end using heavy weaponry" which is totally unverifiable, and that the city is being bombarded by Gaddafi's forces, so same old story there.

This doesn't take away from the significance of the rebels advances in Misarata, and their capture of key locations that have been used by snipers for the past couple of months. That will make it a lot easier for them to operate freely in the city.

ChangeInLibya is also claiming the rebels in Zawiyah have regrouped and started attacking Gaddafi's forces that are stationed there.

# ? Apr 24, 2011 14:36

MothraAttack: Apr 28, 2008

Brown Moses posted:

Been a busy Easter weekend for me, the only news coming from Misarata at the moment is claims from ChangeInLibya that "Gaddafi militias dressed up as civilians are starting to attack the city from its southern end using heavy weaponry" which is totally unverifiable, and that the city is being bombarded by Gaddafi's forces, so same old story there.

AP now reporting "heavy bombardment" of Misrata as well. Part of me worries that this whole thing has been a fake, and we'll see something akin to the whole Sirte advance again.

# ? Apr 24, 2011 17:24

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

MothraAttack posted:

AP now reporting "heavy bombardment" of Misrata as well. Part of me worries that this whole thing has been a fake, and we'll see something akin to the whole Sirte advance again.

I sincerely doubt it; terrain makes a huge difference.

Here is a selection of the road to Sirt

Here is what it looks like advancing on Misrata from the south. Grad rockets themselves are generally anti personnel as I understand it and are not going to be very effective at forcing people in buildings out. That is completely different from a rocket attack on people and light trucks in the open desert.

New reports on twitter that Kuwait is giving the NTC 177 million dollars.

farraday fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Apr 24, 2011

# ? Apr 24, 2011 17:39

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Going to quote this in full; from an AJE correspondent who was recently in Syria.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/04/24/syrian-mourners-cut-down-weeds posted:

Every other journalist is trying to get into Syria, but on Saturday I was trying to get out. The government had made it perfectly clear: My visa was expiring and unless I left on April 23, I would "face the full force of the law".

I had agreed the night before with my cameraman, Ben Mitchell, over a drink that neither of us wanted to discover what "full force of the law" meant. So the debate was really whether I should fly out from Damascus or drive to Amman, Jordan, and fly from there.

The decision was made that he would fly out from Damascus, the Syrian capital, with the gear and I would drive to Amman. I had left my second passport there with a friend. One for Arab countries and the other for Israel. Welcome to 21st century diplomatic relations.

I decided to wait until after noon prayers before setting out south to the border. If the roads were going to be blocked with various pieces of burning detritus, as they had the day before, I wanted to know first. It's about 125km from Damascus to the Jordanian border - a drive that should only take an hour or so, especially with the way Syrian drivers tend to step on the gas.

I was in a really bad mood on this particular morning as I was by default being expelled from the country. I said very little to the driver as we set out, which is unusual for me. I've been grilled in the old school style of journalism: I can still hear the voice of one of my mentors saying "eyes and ears Mr Perry ... eyes and ears".

The only two questions I asked my driver as we left Damascus were his name, and where he was from. "Abdel � from Daraa," he told me.

"Beautiful city," I responded.

Truth was: I didn't know if it was beautiful or not. It was less than four weeks ago when I tried to access the city (which lies right against the Jordanian border in the South) and was turned back by the army. It was my first week in Syria when we tried to cover the initial protests in Daraa. I remember coming across that army checkpoint and two machine-gun positions had been "pre-sighted".

'Kill zone'

An old military technique that I learned from the US Marine Corps about after years in Iraq: Soldiers will simply take two posts, put them at approximately "two o'clock and ten o'clock" as your eyes would scan the horizon: a certain distance out - fire off a few rounds until you hit the post. Then mark that spot on the machine guns sightings - and just like that ... you've got yourself a "pre-sighted kill zone".

A kill zone. The name says it all. US marines have a particular knack for naming things that describe exactly what they really are.

I knew that day, seeing those posts and that "kill zone" that the government was taking these small demonstrations (at the time) very seriously. Syria up until these past five weeks had been a quiet country, while the rest of the region seemed to continue to burn.

Of course it became clear the day before, on April the 22nd, that the government would no longer stand for the type of dissent that had spread: clear opposition to the regime. Over a hundred people were killed across the country on a bloody Friday, the bloodiest since the protests began.

I tried to get out of the hotel and around the country as best I could throughout my month there. But as I told a colleague: "I don't blend in really well - and this government is rounding up journalists."

It was really that, and a few bad incidents I had come across while trying to get out and about. Be it my camera being wrested away from me outside the main mosque in Damascus or my drive through the neighbourhood of Barza in Damascus the previous week.

Barzah: A bad neighbourhood to begin with ... it had gone from bad to worse the Friday I decided to drive through and take a look. Men with metal pipes were in the middle of the street beating people.

At least a dozen walking wounded were headed away from the main mosque there, some bleeding from the head; others had their hands bandaged. Clearly there had been a hand-to-hand brutal battle. Ambulances raced away from the scene - and each time I would have the driver circle back they would wave the pipes as if to say: "We dare you to get out of that car."

Gunfire raining into crowd

My grumpy attitude, Abdel [the driver] and I were approaching the city of Izraa when something immediately clearly horrible was unfolding down the road directly in front of us. People, mostly truck drivers, were standing on the highway ... yelling at the cars approaching - telling them to pull over.

Screaming and waving widely. I saw one making signs with his hands. He was mimicking the motion of a machine gun firing. I got my bearings, noticing right away two road signs: one pointing to the right that read "Izraa: 1km" and the other pointing to the left that read "Daraa".

It dawned on me at that moment that I had been here before. We were just outside the "kill zone" I had seen weeks earlier on the outskirts of Daraa.

About 50 metres from where we pulled over was an overpass that connected Daraa to Izraa. I could see clearly a crowd of people marching from my left to my right over the bridge.

Suddenly gunfire rained into the crowd. The truck drivers dove for cover. And, for what seemed like an eternity, I sat there in the car, stunned and frozen. People were falling on top of each other, being cut down like weeds in a field by what I think must have been a mix of both small arms fire and machine gun fire. I saw at least two children shot. They fell immediately. People were screaming. Gunfire rattled on.

Two cars tried to gun it under the overpass and continue down the highway, even with the gunfire continuing to cut people up. One of the cars got hit immediately before it passed under the bridge and ended up slamming into the embankment on the right side of the road. Someone fell out of the passenger side and scrambled under the bridge and crawled into a ball ... just hoping for survival, I suppose.

I've been playing it through over and over again in my head for the past 16 hours and I still do not know where the gunfire was coming from. It seemed to be coming from a field that lay off to my right - on the Izraa side of the bridge. I could see some muzzle flashes, but I've never in my life seen people walking, and just shot at indiscriminately.

I could not take my eyes off what was quickly becoming carnage. One of the last things I remember seeing clearly were people lying flat on the road, taking cover behind those who had already been wounded or shot dead ... lying in what must have been pools of blood to avoid a hail of flying hot hell.

Abdel's brain finally switched back on and he flung the car into reverse and headed backwards down the highway, laying on his car horn the entire time, weaving backwards through the cars that were now slowly approaching the spot where truck drivers were taking cover in the ditch. I was gripping the handle of the door so hard, I noticed my knuckles had gone totally white.

Mini-massacre

Abdel spun the car around, drove over the median and started driving back to Damascus. There was really nothing to say at that point. But out of immediate instinct, I rang our news desk in Doha. I can't remember what I said initially, but clearly it was enough for the editors to get an anchor up immediately to tape an interview over the phone, getting my fresh reaction to what I had seen.

I didn't know what to say honestly except it was clear security forces [or Assad loyalists, who are now, based on behaviour, part of the security forces] had just carried out a mini-massacre. I'm sure I repeated myself too many times, something you try not to do ... but this was unlike anything I had ever seen. After covering seven separate wars in as many years, I've never seen people march directly into a hail of gunfire.

As the interview was rapping up, we came across a heavy army checkpoint. We had driven through maybe a dozen on our way down, and the further we headed south, the more frequent they became. It was as if around 25km north of the Jordan border there was an invisible military zone that had been put up.

I didn't notice the ones on the other side of the highway, but as soon as we started approaching one (now driving back north), Abdel and I looked at each other. Immediately I apologised to Tony Harris [our anchor] and shoved the phone into my pocket, bringing a quick end to the interview.

Being seen talking on the phone as a journalist, right after fleeing that scene, we would have ended up in detention, there is not a doubt in my mind.

As we passed through the army checkpoint, the soldiers were smoking and laughing; looking at each other; smiling, waving us through various barriers. I can only describe it like what it felt to me: an evil grimace of enjoyment was on their faces. We were maybe, at the most, 3km from where I had just seen people cut down, bullets tearing their bodies into pieces. It was disgusting.

I turned to look at Abdel, to begin asking him a series of questions about the best way to proceed from that point on - and I saw a man of maybe 40 years old with a single tear running down his cheek. "Are you ok, habbibi," I asked like an idiot.

"Yes ... yes - but shou (what) � shou," he repeated � what do we have? There is no humanity here anymore."

'No humanity left'

After a few minutes of silence and many cigarettes passed back and forth we debated the best way for me to get out of the country. We debated it all the way back to Damascus.

In the end, Abdel and I agreed: make a run for the Lebanese border now, spending another night in Damascus; overstaying my visa to face the "full force of the law" after reporting what we had both just seen was not a smart idea.

So, off to the Lebanese capital Beirut we went.

Ironic that a place where I've seen a war and many clashes break out before was suddenly a seven-hour refugee for me as I waited for the first flight to any European city so I could then connect home to see my elderly and sick grandfather on Easter.

As I sit at this airport in Paris, writing this piece, watching people come and go, I am haunted by two thoughts: The first is a question I cannot answer. How can you shoot people like that? Just watch a crowd march towards you; sit in a firing position, wait ... watch; then fire directly into a crowd of civilians.

I did not see a single shot fired from the crowd in the few minutes we sat there watching people flail without any place to hide - a gut wrenching pink mist spraying strait in the air.

It is that thought, and the words of a young man from the southern city of Daraa speaking about the country he once loved, a country that has forever changed asking me rhetorically: "What do we have? There is no humanity here anymore."

# ? Apr 24, 2011 19:41

Ghetto Prince: Sep 11, 2010; got to be mellow, y'all

Looks mubarak isn't gonna die on Egyptian soil any time soon
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/04/201142421469638622.html

And Misrata is under heavy shelling, Apparently the rebels aren't giving the government in Tripoli any time to do whatever they're planning, and have begun attacking the remaining military forces in the south of the city.

# ? Apr 25, 2011 01:10

globe: Jan 28, 2009

Combat video from the rebels in Misurata:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iy4fsaD3Ug&feature=share

# ? Apr 25, 2011 01:58

OwlBot 2000: Jun 1, 2009

globe posted:

Combat video from the rebels in Misurata:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iy4fsaD3Ug&feature=share

Somebody send a few vids to the rebels, like these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3XCMNYMHFM&NR#t=0m20s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB96LfLE-sA&feature=related
..and maybe they'll get something done and not look like frightened children

OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Apr 25, 2011

# ? Apr 25, 2011 02:28

Illegal Clown: Feb 18, 2004

globe posted:

Combat video from the rebels in Misurata:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iy4fsaD3Ug&feature=share

I like how there were guys reloading rifles and then passing them up to the guys shooting on the wall. That's neat, but some pretty bad tactics. The same goes for shooting way over the heads like that.

# ? Apr 25, 2011 02:30

Pedrophile: Feb 25, 2011; by angerbot

Aiming down the actual sights would probably be the best thing to do

# ? Apr 25, 2011 02:32

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

See what they are against though? That's a god drat anti aircraft gun.. also they look exactly like how the mercs were described. Awesome how they were moving a construction vehicle around for cover. The only criticism is that they had a perfect shot on that AA gun with an RPG but they wasted it randomly shooting over that wall.. and there is no way that would have hit anything, he didn't even aim.

I wonder if that last RPG hit the AA gun. They seemed pretty happy.

# ? Apr 25, 2011 02:33

Pedrophile: Feb 25, 2011; by angerbot

Lascivious Sloth posted:

See what they are against though? That's a god drat anti aircraft gun.. also they look exactly like how the mercs were described. Awesome how they were moving a construction vehicle around for cover. The only criticism is that they had a perfect shot on that AA gun with an RPG but they wasted it randomly shooting over that wall.. and there is no way that would have hit anything, he didn't even aim.

I wonder if that last RPG hit the AA gun. They seemed pretty happy.

Are we sure that was a merc or a rebel? It was kinda hard to tell, I'd figure if it was a merc and they were being shot at they woulda turned but they may have been preoccupied.

# ? Apr 25, 2011 02:35

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

Those in the AA gun/car were mercs, look at how they are dressed, and the fact the rebels are shooting at them. They are also classically dark skinned as has been described due to the fact they come from Chad, Niger and Sudan.

# ? Apr 25, 2011 02:42

neamp: Jun 24, 2003

Those were rebels with the anti aircraft gun, the people they were fighting there are holed up in some building shooting out of the windows or through holes in the wall. The video never shows them but at 3:28 you can see the bulldozer getting shot at and the driver fleeing.

Edit: All pictures of supposed mercenaries I have seen so far show them wearing military clothing not civilian and you can't even tell their skin-color in this video. Not that it matters since there are plenty of dark skinned soldiers in the regular Libyan army and I have seen a few also on the rebel side despite their supposedly racist attitudes.

neamp fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Apr 25, 2011

# ? Apr 25, 2011 02:49

Joementum: May 23, 2004; jesus christ

Please knock it off with the skin color analysis. This is the second time in as many days that it's come up and it's been wrong both times.

# ? Apr 25, 2011 02:54

Pedrophile: Feb 25, 2011; by angerbot

t3ch3 posted:

Please knock it off with the skin color analysis. This is the second time in as many days that it's come up and it's been wrong both times.

What do you mean it has been wrong, in what sense?

# ? Apr 25, 2011 02:56

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 21:52

Contraction mapping: Jul 4, 2007; THE NAZIS WERE SOCIALISTS

globe posted:

Combat video from the rebels in Misurata:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iy4fsaD3Ug&feature=share

Christ those guys are brave. 'No guns left? Well shucks, guess I'll just have to make do with my hatchet and go Mel Gibson on these fuckers.'

# ? Apr 25, 2011 03:24

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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