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Can anyone explain the arrest of the judges - is it just that Erdogan is out to tear down everyone who's part of the current establishment on the grounds he can't trust them, or is there a specific reason to think the judiciary in particular was pro-coup?
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Jul 16, 2016 16:57
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im gay posted:So basically Erdogan shits on everyone and the only response from Western states is "condemn coup" all while soldiers are beaten, tortured and killed in the streets. I guess they really do need that fucker more than he needs them. Coup government would almost certainly be worse at least in the short to medium term, plus the coup was tiny and lovely and poorly organized and you never want to come out supporting the wrong side of a coup
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Jul 16, 2016 16:59
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Beefeater1980 posted:Can anyone explain the arrest of the judges - is it just that Erdogan is out to tear down everyone who's part of the current establishment on the grounds he can't trust them, or is there a specific reason to think the judiciary in particular was pro-coup? Around the time news of the coup was breaking I heard comments speculating that it was in response to a planned purge of the judiciary. I'd bet this was planned for a while but the coup gave it new impetus, plus an easier justification. Erdogan's been trying to change the constitution to give himself dictatorial power for a while, it's possible that filling the judicial system is another means to that end. Recently in Venezuela, the government did something similar, stacked the supreme court with yes men to allow it to ignore an electoral defeat in parliament. If the supreme constitutional authority is completely beholdened to you, it doesn't matter what the constitution actually says, you can just let the courts rule whatever you do legal even if it blatantly isn't.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:03
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Beefeater1980 posted:Can anyone explain the arrest of the judges - is it just that Erdogan is out to tear down everyone who's part of the current establishment on the grounds he can't trust them, or is there a specific reason to think the judiciary in particular was pro-coup? Erdogan is holding the Gülen movement responsible for the coup and is no purging the civil administration of everyone who has connections to that movement, which are a lot of people because a big part of their network were private schools - and if you attended one of those, you are now automatically a supporter of the Gülen terrorist network in the eyes of Erdogan.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:04
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Beefeater1980 posted:Can anyone explain the arrest of the judges - is it just that Erdogan is out to tear down everyone who's part of the current establishment on the grounds he can't trust them, or is there a specific reason to think the judiciary in particular was pro-coup? Erdogan is taking the opportunity to go after his entire laundry list of political opponents. It doesn't matter if they actually backed the coup, he has a chance to reform everything in his own image. Warbadger fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Jul 16, 2016 |
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Jul 16, 2016 17:05
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I don't think the judiciary is pro-coup but it's the last (mostly) independent institution in turkey and has been annoying Erdogan by occasionally entertaining the idea that maybe his cronies aren't above the law.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:05
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The big red flag is if Erdogan purges the Constitutional Court; that's the body that makes sure that government bills and decrees are legal and therefore the main roadblock to parliamentary dictatorship. E: The majority of the court's membership was appointed under Gül, the AKP-aligned president when Erdogan was still PM. I honestly don't know enough about Turkish politics to know if or how reliably it would rule in AKP's favour, but things under Gül weren't as far gone as they are now so I doubt it would be a rubber stamp. The terms aren't for life but they're long; Erdogan would only get the opportunity to replace more than a couple in the early to mid 2020s. Constant Hamprince fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Jul 16, 2016 |
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Jul 16, 2016 17:11
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im gay posted:So basically Erdogan shits on everyone and the only response from Western states is "condemn coup" all while soldiers are beaten, tortured and killed in the streets. I guess they really do need that fucker more than he needs them. Why in the world would anyone come out in support of a failed coup attempt? It's not a question of needing Erdogan more than he needs the west. It's not a question at all. You can't come out in favor of something that doesn't exist.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:12
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Varam posted:Why in the world would anyone come out in support of a failed coup attempt? It's not a question of needing Erdogan more than he needs the west. It's not a question at all. You can't come out in favor of something that doesn't exist. Erdogan basically called for an armed mob to come to the streets for violence and disposed of all democratic stability based on stupid old rivalries. He is getting a free pass.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:20
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im gay posted:Erdogan basically called for an armed mob to come to the streets for violence and disposed of all democratic stability. He is getting a free pass. Lol
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Jul 16, 2016 17:21
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Also there's no reason to believe everyone arrested is going to be immediately removed from office. It's not even 12 hours since the start of the coup, probably Erdogan still doesn't know what everyone's loyalties are. At this stage the government still needs to visibly demonstrate its control and authority, while quickly and efficiently rooting out the plotters. Expect many or even most of those arrested to be released pretty quickly.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:22
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Squalid posted:Also there's no reason to believe everyone arrested is going to be immediately removed from office. It's not even 12 hours since the start of the coup, probably Erdogan still doesn't know what everyone's loyalties are. At this stage the government still needs to visibly demonstrate its control and authority, while quickly and efficiently rooting out the plotters. Expect many or even most of those arrested to be released pretty quickly. Unless they're Kurdish.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:24
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Varam posted:Why in the world would anyone come out in support of a failed coup attempt? It's not a question of needing Erdogan more than he needs the west. It's not a question at all. You can't come out in favor of something that doesn't exist. Hell, even more than that, why would you support the thing that hosed up so goddamned awfully? The coup killed a lot of people, led to massive purges of the last bastions of independence in Turkey, and raised Erdogan up on a pedestal. No matter what the coup members tried to do, they've pushed things completely in the opposite direction of their stated intent. You don't support people that gently caress up that badly.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:24
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Bombing parliament, shooting from gunships into crowds = an unfortunate constitutional duty
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Jul 16, 2016 17:26
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kustomkarkommando posted:Bombing parliament, shooting from gunships into crowds = an unfortunate constitutional duty Don't forget charging into crowds of protesters with armored vehicles.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:27
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Constant Hamprince posted:Around the time news of the coup was breaking I heard comments speculating that it was in response to a planned purge of the judiciary. I'd bet this was planned for a while but the coup gave it new impetus, plus an easier justification. Well, the coup apparently got jump started when Erdogan was going to arrest the coup planners this Friday, so they need to coup de'tat while the iron was hot.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:29
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Deteriorata posted:Who's going to preside over the trials after the entire judiciary is arrested? Kangaroos 
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Jul 16, 2016 17:30
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Nitrousoxide posted:Don't forget charging into crowds of protesters with armored vehicles. I believe you'll find that was actually protesters violently assaulting tank treads with their bodies.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:30
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There have been some pretty unflattering things said about those 'protesters' so I'm not entirely sure we should care that much. Seems more like a violent mob was amassed by the AKP which then started attacking soldiers that mostly had no idea what was going on besides being deployed for what they thought was training or counter terrorism.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:31
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im gay posted:Erdogan basically called for an armed mob to come to the streets for violence and disposed of all democratic stability based on stupid old rivalries. He is getting a free pass. I'm not sure how this is the valid avenue of criticism of Erdogan. If he had one thing going for him going into the coup it's that he has wide support from if not a majority at least a plurality of the country.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:32
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farraday posted:I believe you'll find that was actually protesters violently assaulting tank treads with their bodies. If they respected the constitutional mandated right of the tank treads they would not have impeded their legal duty by criminally standing in front of them
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Jul 16, 2016 17:32
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Reason posted:There have been some pretty unflattering things said about those 'protesters' so I'm not entirely sure we should care that much. Seems more like a violent mob was amassed by the AKP which then started attacking soldiers that mostly had no idea what was going on besides being deployed for what they thought was training or counter terrorism. The protesters weren't all AKP people. A lot of people who are anti-Erdogan still opposed the coup.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:34
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Reason posted:There have been some pretty unflattering things said about those 'protesters' so I'm not entirely sure we should care that much. Seems more like a violent mob was amassed by the AKP which then started attacking soldiers that mostly had no idea what was going on besides being deployed for what they thought was training or counter terrorism. oh come on, the only unflattering thing to be said is about the people who weren't crushed by tanks
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Jul 16, 2016 17:35
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Bip Roberts posted:I'm not sure how this is the valid avenue of criticism of Erdogan. If he had one thing going for him going into the coup it's that he has wide support from if not a majority at least a plurality of the country. A decent politic in power should not use the citizens has human shields to defend his own skin. One if not the highest priority should be the safety of the citizens. And not put them in harm ways. Asking civilians to fight tanks is cartoon level style of evil and stupid. 
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Jul 16, 2016 17:36
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Tei posted:A decent politic in power should not use the citizens has human shields to defend his own skin. One if not the highest priority should be the safety of the citizens. And not put them in harm ways. It's amazing to me how posters cheering for a coup are now crying about how Edrogan cheated by not losing.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:38
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Oh, its okay, without a Judiciary, I'm sure great things are in store.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:38
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I can't believe Erdogan would stoop so low as to unleash his hordes of terrorist 'civilian' islamofascist 'protestor' thugs on those innocent soldiers who just happened to be standing around in public locations while this 'coup' that Erdogan probably made up himself was supposedly going on.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:40
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Doesn't erodgan know the rules of coups?! Mobilising popular support in the streets is just plain rude and very embarrassing for putschists who are just trying to do their job
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Jul 16, 2016 17:41
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farraday posted:It's amazing to me how posters cheering for a coup are now crying about how Edrogan cheated by not losing. I am more pissed that the military didnt just capture his rear end or just kill him. instead they hosed around hoping for more support. instead they hosed up like the venezuelan military did when they had chavez but didnt do anything. just shoot the evil fucker in the head and dump his body in salt mine.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:41
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Kulkasha posted:Unless they're Kurdish. No no no you save the far enemy until you've already cleared the immediate threats, then you have something to unite the nation around. Of course that would be more important in the event the coup succeeded, right now Erdogan might not be too eager to give the army any more authority and funding. im gay posted:Erdogan basically called for an armed mob to come to the streets for violence and disposed of all democratic stability based on stupid old rivalries. He is getting a free pass.  Pictured: vicious mob thug disposing of Turkish democracy #prayforourtroops
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Jul 16, 2016 17:42
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Dapper_Swindler posted:I am more pissed that the military didnt just capture his rear end or just kill him. instead they hosed around hoping for more support. a lot of how incompetently done this was makes sense given the rumors they set it off early because he was about to have them arrested
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Jul 16, 2016 17:43
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and yeah jesus, even if he's the next hitler asking people to protest a military coup - which they did, successfully - is not exactly something you can complain about that is an entirely legitimate response to a military coup
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Jul 16, 2016 17:45
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I think we can all agree the only good result would have been the coup failing while simultaneously Erdogan spontaneously combusted.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:46
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evilweasel posted:a lot of how incompetently done this was makes sense given the rumors they set it off early because he was about to have them arrested true. What Louis XIV said could have been said by Erdogan: "I am the state." I don't think the AK Party and the ruling government could continue the way it is now without him; Erdogan just replaced the Prime Minister, had ditched the previous president just a few years ago, and no one else has even 10% of his stature. Grabbing/killing him would have been the decisive blow of the coup; not doing so doomed it.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:47
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Tei posted:A decent politic in power should not use the citizens has human shields to defend his own skin. One if not the highest priority should be the safety of the citizens. And not put them in harm ways. The people were already taking the streets by the time Erdogan made his facetime call, and the entire opposition and media had sided against the coup. They were literally opening up on unarmed crowds from loving helicopters. The people made their choice, and it was not in the military's favor.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:47
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Erdogan Did Nothing Wrong (during the coup, before and after is another story).
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Jul 16, 2016 17:48
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Turkish press reporting that the VP of the constitutional court was arrested
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Jul 16, 2016 17:53
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farraday posted:It's amazing to me how posters cheering for a coup are now crying about how Edrogan cheated by not losing. I think its funny that suddenly there are tons of people sympathizing with erdo and his push for power. I do think that calling citizens in the street during a coup or really for any political action is perfectly legitimate. My problem stems from the notion that protesters were essentially just peaceful actors wandering the streets calling for democracy when the truth doesn't seem to be quite so cut and dry. With the pictures of a beheading (I guess not confirmed yet) and soldiers that had been killed inside their military vehicles it looks like soldiers who surrendered peacefully were then attacked which seems kind of crazy to me.
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Jul 16, 2016 17:58
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Hauki posted:Turkish press reporting that the VP of the constitutional court was arrested Yeah, this Coup just gave Erdogan all the fuel he needed to burn anything standing in his way to the ground
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Jul 16, 2016 17:59
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evilweasel posted:and yeah jesus, even if he's the next hitler asking people to protest a military coup - which they did, successfully - is not exactly something you can complain about Military rank-and-file, and especially conscripts, not wanting to fire on their countrymen seems like a rather common reason for coups to fail. (They seem to have less inhibition about firing on parliaments, though).
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Jul 16, 2016 18:00
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