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Remember when hoxhud made a big splash about being "Overkill Approved?" Now Wilko is Hercules loving Mulligan and he's unfucking the game at the speed of light.
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Sep 2, 2016 06:48
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Seriously though how mad do you think the hoxhud guy is about this
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Sep 2, 2016 06:56
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Grapplejack posted:Seriously though how mad do you think the hoxhud guy is about this That shithorse probably doesn't even know.
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Sep 2, 2016 07:03
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current status of hoxhud
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Sep 2, 2016 07:43
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LuciferMorningstar posted:It's an interesting approach, but you have to come at it with the right mindset. There are a number of heist where mixed stealth works out pretty well. Firestarter 2 and Diamond are good examples. In FS2, you can stealth through the hacks, then go loud to saw the door and steal the server. On Diamond, someone(s) can pull out artifacts and partially complete objectives. There's no reason to do it unless you find it amusing, and it's always done with the knowledge that things will eventually go loud. All the more that people shouldn't complain about it. Of course, that would hardly be the way of the PD2 community...
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Sep 2, 2016 08:02
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I figured the changing profiles while in-lobby was an attempt to make it so that if you, say, used the brand new feature of quickplay and had both stealth and loud heist-type selected, that you could more easily swap between your stealth or loud build? Or is this just too much logic for the Payday community?
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Sep 2, 2016 11:50
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Psion posted:so uh, I'm really okay with you integrating all of goonmod into the base game (are lasers or the delimiter next? you hush
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Sep 2, 2016 12:12
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I'm just getting used to not having to hit q after swapping a weapon, because of you Wilko. Of course, this means that now when I have a weapon that also has a flashlight I get the most amazing rainbow flashlight too, so I'm not even complaining. I can't wait for the pubbie tears when I turn my laser rainbow and they HAVE to see it and this is "  RUINING MY IMMERSION! "
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Sep 2, 2016 13:42
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Overkill has confirmed that changing builds at loadout screen is not a bug, but an intended feature. Basically they don't want to make the game harder by just making you unable to change builds between different days and when you drop into heists, and it's also meant to support the new Quickplay option by making it such that you can switch builds once you drop into a game. Very sensible.
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Sep 2, 2016 15:46
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ugh. They're removing mechanisms for difficulty that can't be replaced. I can't tell if they're doing this intentionally out of a fixation on smoothing out bumps, or if it was an unintended effect of the loadout swapper and they're just afraid of playerbase backlash.
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Sep 2, 2016 |
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Sep 2, 2016 15:57
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Discendo Vox posted:ugh. They're removing mechanisms for difficulty that can't be replaced. I can't tell if they're doing this intentionally out of a fixation on smoothing out bumps, or if it was an unintended effect of the loadout swapper and they're just afraid of playerbase backlash. You're an idiot.
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Sep 2, 2016 16:05
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I really don't think it's a good way to introduce difficulty, especially when it's so easy to circumvent. Maybe we'll see more variety in multi-day heists without developers having to balance in that particular way. Also lol at the idea of them keeping it in to avoid Steam forum bitching
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Sep 2, 2016 16:07
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Discendo Vox posted:ugh. They're removing mechanisms for difficulty that can't be replaced. I can't tell if they're doing this intentionally out of a fixation on smoothing out bumps, or if it was an unintended effect of the loadout swapper and they're just afraid of playerbase backlash. vox...
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Sep 2, 2016 16:07
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Discendo Vox posted:ugh. They're removing mechanisms for difficulty that can't be replaced. I can't tell if they're doing this intentionally out of a fixation on smoothing out bumps, or if it was an unintended effect of the loadout swapper and they're just afraid of playerbase backlash. Oh, right, you're upset because this is going to ruin your precious fanfiction. Haha.
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Sep 2, 2016 16:14
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Dr Cheeto posted:I really don't think it's a good way to introduce difficulty, especially when it's so easy to circumvent. Maybe we'll see more variety in multi-day heists without developers having to balance in that particular way. Variable requirements in multi-day heists didn't need to be balanced against- it was something that could be used as a mechanism of balance unto itself-something that was a part of the game's design for a long time. The telling part of the rationale Jules posts is that the devs are now trying to get heist play rates even across the board- that's not a good dragon to chase, whether from a difficulty or general gameplay perspective. Overkill bowing to pressure from the forums has very much been a thing since the safe backlash. ClonedPickle posted:Oh, right, you're upset because this is going to ruin your precious fanfiction. Haha. I don't use this particular thing for DV, and I wouldn't use DV as the basis for the broader game's design. This does remove one of the few remaining constraints on the player's ability to constantly clown on everything. There's not really a reason to not let players fully respec between days, now. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Sep 2, 2016 |
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Sep 2, 2016 16:15
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how dare they change the balance in my PvE game
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Sep 2, 2016 16:20
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Discendo Vox posted:This does remove one of the few remaining constraints on the player's ability to constantly clown on everything. Nope.
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Sep 2, 2016 16:22
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Discendo Vox posted:Overkill bowing to pressure from the forums has very much been a thing since the safe backlash. Pressure from the forums was whining to remove the feature, until they thought about it for half a second. Name a single multi-day heist that is made significantly easier by this change. Here, in case you need to look them up: http://payday.wikia.com/wiki/Category:PAYDAY_2_heists This change was made to make pubbing easier, so a lobby of four idiots with medic bags could swap to a different build once they got to the Crew Setup screen and realized no one had ammo.
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Sep 2, 2016 16:30
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e: ^^ drat you, I was just doing that! Let's look at this from a step back - what heists does it really impact? Only ones where they're multiple days, and only ones where there are/can be significant differences in playstyle between days. Most multi-day heists, this doesn't matter - Watchdogs, Rats, Biker, Hox Break, etc - because there's minimal difference in your viable tactics. Worst case you're looking at mild inconvenience, like wanting to take a sniper-based build on day 1 of Goat Sim and a shotgun-based one on day 2. The benefits of switching are hardly game-breaking. The only ones I can see are the stealth/loud bridges, so there's only two. Election Day, if you tag the wrong truck and get stuck in day 2b accidentally; and Framing Frame, if you decide to do day 1/2 loud and day 3 stealth for the sake of... something. Yeah, it opens up new player options, but I can't see how you can argue this is a significant shift in difficulty. There's barely any heists this affects.
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Sep 2, 2016 16:33
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Discendo Vox posted:The telling part of the rationale Jules posts is that the devs are now trying to get heist play rates even across the board- that's not a good dragon to chase, whether from a difficulty or general gameplay perspective. I fundamentally disagree here. If nobody plays Transports or Car Shop the developer absolutely needs to look into why that's happening and take appropriate action. Discendo Vox posted:Overkill bowing to pressure from the forums has very much been a thing since the safe backlash. Microtransactions generated a multimedia blitz of negative coverage that very, very few things in video games can really accomplish. I don't think that's an appropriate parallel. Discendo Vox posted:This does remove one of the few remaining constraints on the player's ability to constantly clown on everything. I really don't think one-day heists are easy in a way that multi-day heists aren't. Most of the examples people are providing of multi-day heists generating difficulty is if they gimp themselves with plan-B stealth builds or investing a whopping 7-17 skillpoints in saws, drills, or C4 to gain a marginal advantage. You could always just barrel through in your fatsuit. Dr Cheeto fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Sep 2, 2016 |
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Sep 2, 2016 16:37
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Discendo Vox posted:ugh. They're removing mechanisms for difficulty that can't be replaced. I can't tell if they're doing this intentionally out of a fixation on smoothing out bumps, or if it was an unintended effect of the loadout swapper and they're just afraid of playerbase backlash. Considering the new-found flexibility in terms of the our skill tree builds I dont see why doing this is not a good option. I could do an :effortpost: about pros and cons but it really doesnt matter that much. I do understand why some people think the changes are bad for balance and whatever, but I will enjoy the game more because of it, even if it is less of a challenge. Maybe now I'll try DW more though, so 
AAAAA! Real Muenster fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Sep 2, 2016 |
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Sep 2, 2016 16:41
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I like the changes and agree that changing (even if purely softening) difficulty in a PVE game isn't really any reason to get upset. Further, everyone but the host already had this ability if they were willing to quit to menu and rejoin in the planning screen. It's just turning an already-available "exploit" into a "feature" in the base game, really, for everyone instead of everyone but the host. Also while I'm not sure Wilko was necessarily involved, lasers staying on between weapon swaps in the base game is the best thing since sliced bread as far as I'm concerned (goonmod has other cool features but that was the "Killer app" for me, at least, and seeing it rolled into the base game is great. Now if only my laser would stay on when I get into/out of a forklift.) I've found the leg hitboxes useful for taking cops hostage easier without accidentally killing them. Do leg hits do reduced damage? At least anecdotally it seems a lot easier to plug a cop in the knee and then yell at him without worrying as much about an extra round or two necessarily killing him instead, but that could be due to reduced damage or it just being easier to get the crosshairs off the hitbox before it results in a fatality. In re: earlier discussions of "hybrid" gameplay wherein it's worthwhile to stealth part of a heist before going loud... yeah Alesso's a great example cuz that loving security hack takes forever and it's easy enough to stealth your way into having the C4 before whipping out the big guns and getting rowdy. There's others but that one sticks out because I've done it recently and been annoyed pubbies decided to murder guards in front of cameras before getting all the C4. And anything that makes Framing Frame less bullshit is good.
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Sep 2, 2016 16:50
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ClonedPickle posted:Pressure from the forums was whining to remove the feature, until they thought about it for half a second. Pressure from the forums came from both directions on this- a factor was that it was initially presented as a bug. Most of the multi-day heists have an advantage in swapping in or out of either dodge or an opening build of some sort from one day to the next. Biker is a fairly strong example, since the limited space on the train harms dodge builds. It is true that later heists are more homogenous in how they effect builds, but that's part of the same problem- OVK have responded to complaints by removing things that would require choices to have consequences (hence the reduced role for saws, for example). The usual proposed solution to the drop-in problem was to let someone swap builds when they join the game, separate from the conventional loadout screen. Dr Cheeto posted:I fundamentally disagree here. If nobody plays Transports or Car Shop the developer absolutely needs to look into why that's happening and take appropriate action. I agree if the usage rate is "nobody", but the response goes too far in the opposite direction, aiming for a sort of majority appeal across heists that reduces variety. Dr Cheeto posted:Microtransactions generated a multimedia blitz of negative coverage that very, very few things in video games can really accomplish. I don't think that's an appropriate parallel. I'm not saying the safe backlash is the only example- I'm saying that overkill, in taking steps to be more receptive since that backlash, has started removing things that players have complaints about, valid or not. The bag weight on Big Oil is a good example of this. chairface posted:good I'm down with most of the changes, don't get me wrong. I'm generally concerned that, by removing the meaningfulness of low-level choices and variety in gameplay, the game becomes less engaging over time and is not able to sustain itself. Overkill are removing the decisions in build and gameplay that had challenge or consequence for players- special units are pretty close to meaningless now, because players can simultaneously have skills that obviate all of their unique elements, plus the current damage output makes oneshotting everything but dozers or winters a cinch. This is symptomatic of a broader homogenization of obstacles in the game. Overkill is talking about how they are going to respond to the massive decrease in difficulty by adding new challenges or difficulties. Given the limited scope of acceptable sources of challenge, I'm growing increasingly worried that any new addition to the game is going to be some cross between DW and 145+- something that again reduces the high level of play to camping and twitch. That's not going to do much of anything to keep the game interesting. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Sep 2, 2016 |
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Sep 2, 2016 17:06
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ClonedPickle posted:Name a single multi-day heist that is made significantly easier by this change. Here, in case you need to look them up: http://payday.wikia.com/wiki/Category:PAYDAY_2_heists Framing Frame Pro. You can ECM rush day one, be prepared for cops on day 2, and go hard on day 3.
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Sep 2, 2016 17:10
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Discendo Vox posted:Biker is a fairly strong example, since the limited space on the train harms dodge builds. You're out of your mind. Dodge builds are great on the train. quote:I'm growing increasingly worried that any new addition to the game is going to be some cross between DW and 145+- something that again reduces the high level of play to camping and twitch. That's not going to do much of anything to keep the game interesting. An FPS requiring FPS skills? No fuckin' way, man! Skunkrocker posted:Framing Frame Pro. You can ECM rush day one, be prepared for cops on day 2, and go hard on day 3. No. 4 unupgraded ECMs on 1, no skills required. Same outcome.
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Sep 2, 2016 17:19
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Hot drat! Wilko is living the dream now. Congrats! I haven't played since the beta for the new skill trees were available. Now gadget/laser stays on between weapon swaps?!  Does this mean push to interact no longer requires you to hold? I'll use goonmod regardless, but seeing the game become more user friendly is definitely good to see. Any major changes I should know about besides the whole "swap builds in between days"?
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Sep 2, 2016 17:28
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Discendo Vox posted:Pressure from the forums came from both directions on this- a factor was that it was initially presented as a bug. I view armor vs. dodge as a preference choice the player makes on how to play the game, and I've yet to see someone change between the two on different heists regularly. I feel that it's usually a pretty rigid choice once a player gets comfortable with the game, short of build experimentation here and there. But I don't see how allowing a player to switch between armor and dodge between days is at all bad, that sounds good and fun for people with a preference for both. Also, no, Biker is a pretty weak example; I'd much rather have a dodge build on day 2 than an armor build, partially because of preference, partially because gently caress getting stuck out in the open surrounded by cops and trying to get my armor to regenerate. You're getting somewhere with the opening build, though. Had you argued that, say, someone can bring drill skills to Biker day 1 and then switch out for more shooty shooty bang bang on day 2, you might have had something there. But it's also really not a big deal, and there will still be plenty of players who put drill skills in the one build they use and not bother to set up a second, near-identical build without the drill skills. Or maybe they will do that and start to experiment with different builds, giving them more interest in the game! So, next post, let's focus on the opening build and try again with a specific heist that got significantly easier. I believe in you, you can do it. Skunkrocker posted:Framing Frame Pro. You can ECM rush day one, be prepared for cops on day 2, and go hard on day 3. You could already do that with four un-upgraded ECMs. I guess you can get more paintings with better ECMs? Woooo.
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Sep 2, 2016 17:28
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Discendo Vox posted:Most of the multi-day heists have an advantage in swapping in or out of either dodge or an opening build of some sort from one day to the next. Biker is a fairly strong example, since the limited space on the train harms dodge builds. This isn't true in the least.
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Sep 2, 2016 17:41
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If anything, Day 1 of Biker Heist is far shittier for dodge builds than Day 2. Anyway, putting the option in to switch builds between days made a lot of sense for a few very good reasons: 1) When playing with a crew, people would switch builds on multi-day heists anyway by quitting and rejoining. 2) It helps with drop-ins, making it easier for people to actually play the game that they bought. 3) Players respond to failures at stealth overwhelmingly by restarting, not by carrying on with the heist, which means hybrid builds are effectively useless. 4) As explained by numerous people, it doesn't even actually affect many heists. I couldn't give less of a gently caress if this is pandering, it's a legitimately sensible change. If they want to equalise the number of heists played, though, could they also consider: 1) All transport heist loot bags should give the maximum amount of loot (eg if it's money, the first six mission-required lootbags should give $307k and not a measly $7500). 2) XP for transport heists should also be increased in proportion to the number of bags secured. I'm thinking transport heists should be seen as a loud-only equivalent to bank heists, with similar value of money and XP for similar amount of time spent (10-15 mins or so, shorter with appropriate equipment like C4 and saw). 3) Give loud option for Car Shop - make it have a time-limited escape, if you must, so as to even things up with the stealth approach. And for gently caress's sake, stop making people have to carefully park their cars in the container under a tight time limit.
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Sep 2, 2016 17:44
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ClonedPickle posted:So, next post, let's focus on the opening build and try again with a specific heist that got significantly easier. I believe in you, you can do it. I didn't emphasize opening builds as heavily because they interact with other issues in the game's design. As I previously mentioned, the fact that everything's been made much easier, and that build choices are becoming less meaningful, is part of the problem. You're really not improving discourse by being a dick. Blight Runner posted:I haven't played since the beta for the new skill trees were available. Now gadget/laser stays on between weapon swaps?! Push to interact's still a mod thing- transition away from that will be rocky, I suspect. There are design reasons to want someone to hold, really- psychologically, it increases the sense of tension involved with limiting your ability to do other things (though practically it's no different, and it's not a design theory I'm crazy about in this context, especially loud).
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Sep 2, 2016 17:44
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The planned console progress update for today he been pushed to next week. My gut tells me I am the only one in this thread that is relevant to. For the skill/ perk swap debate, the elitist in me thinks it's lame but I also basically only host games so I know what I'm going into everytime. It seems like a good idea for the quick play thing though and will probably entice more players to join pubs.
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Sep 2, 2016 17:51
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swims posted:The planned console progress update for today he been pushed to next week. My gut tells me I am the only one in this thread that is relevant to. How specific are they getting with what you're getting on console?
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Sep 2, 2016 17:55
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Discendo Vox posted:You're really not improving discourse by being a dick. Ah-ah, no logical fallacies for you, Vox. You made a claim, that claim has been challenged. Still think you're right? Take the high road and post evidence that supports it, or be a mature adult and accept you're wrong if you can't. You're not exactly "improving discourse" with your habit of refusing to admit fault or error when your theories, design fanfiction, and claims are disagreed with, either, so it's really unacceptable for you to pretend you can do this. Or when you see a discussion thread you don't like, so you explicitly say "I'm going to torment this thread with my design fanfiction until you stop discussing what I don't want you to discuss" or any number of similar situations. Psion fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Sep 2, 2016 |
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Sep 2, 2016 17:59
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Nothing specific yet. Only some leaks. PS4 had a ninja pack on the store for a minute but was immediately removed. We're atleast getting that. My main question is if crimewave players buy whatever the DLC is will we be able to play with Big Score players when that launches.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:04
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Discendo Vox posted:I didn't emphasize opening builds as heavily because they interact with other issues in the game's design. As I previously mentioned, the fact that everything's been made much easier, and that build choices are becoming less meaningful, is part of the problem. You're really not improving discourse by being a dick. Okay, so you're saying switching builds in-between days of a multi-day heist WOULD be a problem IF the game were designed more to your liking. I'm sorry that the level designers at Overkill have decided not to add more uses for the saw and C4, but that's really nothing new. How long has the gate in Hotline day 2 been sawable but not C4-able? How useful is the sewer "shortcut" in Framing Frame day 2? I'd rather they make a good heist where I can click cops and run around at warp speed instead of reusing that same GenSec door over and over and over (although I like it in Goat Sim day 2, actually). I mean, poo poo, you read how much of the steam forums? How frequently is the term saw bitch used there? I'm not shocked that Overkill might want to reduce the amount of "be saw bitch or ur kickd," especially with the new Quick Play feature.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:24
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This far into the game's life cycle, I really don't care. It makes things easier, yeah, but for me Overkill as a difficulty is a joke and DW's pretty passable for most people I know, yet still kind of an obstacle for others. We're three+ years or whatever in and I'm alright with some barriers being lifted here and there if it means I can bring dodge build one day, saw build next, stealth build next when I would just destroy all three anyway. I still get a kick when I help pop someone's DW cherry and tell them we didn't have sniper rifles, perk decks, fire etc. and get a genuine "daaaaamn" out of it, so I'll always have that. Poor Judgement19x and his attempts to stealth DW Big Oil, though. Plan Z fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Sep 2, 2016 |
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Sep 2, 2016 18:35
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This slapfight is dumb. It will make things easier for people who want to switch between stealth and loud during a multiday (this realistically only affects two multiday heists) and people already do this by dropping out and then rejoining with builds. You know what's not dumb? I bought a Dragon Lord 3 weeks ago and waited for another one of your lovely threadspirals to post about it. It's loving awesome unlike this debate about difficulty amongst a group of people who have hundreds if not thousands of hours logged and have made the game their bitch. 
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Sep 2, 2016 18:40
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Unlike legendary skins, shitposting is free.
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Sep 2, 2016 18:52
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man if I could get a dollar for every shitpost I've made, I would own more legendaries than merc by a factor of ten I'd also probably own the new Doom, because, hey why not
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Sep 2, 2016 18:57
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You want Doom? Wait til the Christmas sale rolls around I'll probably gift you a copy 
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Sep 2, 2016 19:05
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