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Cease to Hope posted:doesn’t the most recent edition let you premeasure now That's correct, yes.
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Oct 26, 2017 23:38
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Cease to Hope posted:doesn’t the most recent edition let you premeasure now I’m not sure, the store I played at stopped hosting game days and I’m not driving 2 hours to the nearest one that does. My overall point was that risk mitigation is a player skill that isn’t meaningfully different than being able to read/bluff your opponent or accurately estimate distances.
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Oct 26, 2017 23:39
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It is meaningfully different. Maybe not in terms of skill ceiling, but in terms of what kind of game you're making and (obviously) what kinds of skills you're testing. Plus, by definition, the more random your game is the less impact skill has on the outcome. You may gain a degree to which "mitigating randomness" contributes to your ability to win, but it comes at a proportionately greater cost in the contribution of other skills. (Which now have to share their impact not only with "mitigating randomness," but also with randomness itself.)
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Oct 26, 2017 23:43
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Countblanc posted:I earnestly believe that there are plenty of modern tabletop games out which would have the longevity and mastery of Go/Chess/whatever had they been invented [amount of years that Go/Chess/whatever was invented ago] ago. There are waaaaay more games which wouldn't be like that, but I have zero reason to believe that Chess is actually deeper and more satisfying than some modern games beyond just having significantly greater cultural momentum. In another timeline, Hollywood shows people playing the Game of Ur as shorthand for "these characters are super smart you guys."
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Oct 26, 2017 23:51
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Anyways you can like XCom if you want, I have the twin brother of this argument in the Roguelike thread once a month and I don't think I change many minds there either. I just don't think it reflects the things that appeal to me in 4E at all.
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Oct 26, 2017 23:51
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fool_of_sound posted:I’m not sure, the store I played at stopped hosting game days and I’m not driving 2 hours to the nearest one that does. My overall point was i don’t think a change damages your point, i was just curious
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Oct 27, 2017 00:01
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Cease to Hope posted:i don’t think a change damages your point, i was just curious Well it might not damage his point, but it sets up my point about how adding new types of skill can come at the cost of the significance of other kinds of skill -- his point being, presumably, that the measuring game is so important and central that it devalues positioning, target prioritization, order of operations, resource allocation, and so on.
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Oct 27, 2017 00:06
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also ironically we both love ToME which has even worse problems with promoting excessive caution as you move into high-level play, but the point at which you're forced to play ToME cautiously is so remote from the experience of a beginner or even an upper-intermediate player that it doesn't really leave that impression 
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Oct 27, 2017 00:12
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:also ironically we both love ToME which has even worse problems with promoting excessive caution as you move into high-level play, but the point at which you're forced to play ToME cautiously is so remote from the experience of a beginner or even an upper-intermediate player that it doesn't really leave that impression I mean, I play basically exclusively on Nightmare, which doesn't have that issue.
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Oct 27, 2017 00:23
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fool_of_sound posted:I mean, I play basically exclusively on Nightmare, which doesn't have that issue. It's definitely a case of messaging trumping optimization, though. Strictly speaking, most of what's "correct" play on Insane or even Madness would be beneficial to your winrate on Normal. It's just that when the game gives you the ability to clear entire rooms full of monsters with a button press or two, and only (lethally) punishes you for taking risks one time in ten thousand, what you focus on is probably "hell yeah what's the best way to blow up a room of monsters" rather than "how can I tease out one of those dudes so I can blow him up alone in a controlled fashion." (Although this slowly becomes less true as you raise the difficulty level and that danger becomes one in a thousand, or one in a hundred...)
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Oct 27, 2017 00:31
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If a person doesn't like randomness in the tactical games then they are very much not in the target audience for Xcom games.Splicer posted:What killed xcom for me was not the guy-gets-one-shot-by-a-thin-man-everyone-panics-and-wastes-their-turn-shooting-each-other early game, it was that you can't abandon a lost cause mission like that but still feel like it's a win because you managed to grab the gun/corpse/stunned alien you personally wanted. You either finish the mission and get everything, finish the mission but lose a few guys, or lose the mission. They forgot to include a way to complete mission goals without winning, which isn't just bad xcom, it's bad military and bad sci-fi. XCom 2 lets you do this in Guerrilla Ops missions. Complete the objective and bail, you stop the bad thing the aliens are doing. If you also kill all the aliens you get a prize.
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Oct 27, 2017 01:28
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the biggest problem with x-com is that the game doesn't really handle either save-loading or ironman well save-loading is a problem because each mission has a large range of outcomes (thanks to the possibility of injuries), and "hmm did I do badly enough on this mission that I should reload it" is not a fun play experience, but ironman is a problem because it's too easy for a mission gone bad to really gently caress you up the second biggest problem is that the strategic layer is super-important and also not very good
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Oct 27, 2017 01:44
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Falstaff posted:In another timeline, Hollywood shows people playing the Game of Ur as shorthand for "these characters are super smart you guys." Ugh, not sumeritrash again, can't we play a sinogame? I brought Xiangqi.
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Oct 27, 2017 01:44
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Falstaff posted:In another timeline, Hollywood shows people playing the Game of Ur as shorthand for "these characters are super smart you guys." So long as it's not Senet, the ancient game of Egypt, and a game so mind bogglingly boring that historians actually refuse to believe they understand the rules, because they cannot understand people going out of their way to play it, except loving nobody except Egypt played it, so the actual most likely truth is that Egypt just really, REALLY loved this boring as hell board game that nobody actually enjoyed. Which, going off of everything else ever said on these forums...yeah, sounds about right.
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Oct 27, 2017 03:29
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What about Patolli, the Mesoamerican parcheesi?
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Oct 27, 2017 03:32
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Cease to Hope posted:final fantasy tactics is the exact same game by the same developers but better The psp remake of Tactics Ogre is better. Yes, even with the terrible crafting system.
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Oct 27, 2017 04:01
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:the biggest problem with x-com is that the game doesn't really handle either save-loading or ironman well Fire Emblem Echoes keeps many, many silly gameplay decisions from the original 1992 SPRG, but I really think Mila's turnwheel (limited save states) was a great innovation. The biggest problem with X-Com is that it never figured out how to handle snowballing and death spirals. But to be fair, many cooperative boardgames also have that issue. I think the board game Freitag does a good job of punishing failure while preventing death spirals. And Pandemic Legacy also has mechanism for that as well.
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Oct 27, 2017 05:24
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https://twitter.com/Gingerhazing/status/923391519494586368 https://twitter.com/JellyD0ughnut/status/923440006206652417 I'm not trying to bag on these people for being "bad" or "wrong", but at some point we've also got to acknowledge that "roll for ridiculous slapstick shenanigans" is an almost irretrievably intertwined part of playing RPGs
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Oct 27, 2017 06:40
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i'll bag on them for you if you'd like
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Oct 27, 2017 06:52
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/Gingerhazing/status/923391519494586368 Well, one of the currently accepted groupthinks in RPGs is "don't roll if failure wouldn't be interesting", and if comedy is on the table, then asking for a roll so you can get a chance to be funny is just good GMing. e. "OK, save versus painful death." "A 17, I make it." "Cool, it doesn't hurt."
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Oct 27, 2017 07:13
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Ever have someone try to sell you on something by dramatically overblowing things and accidentally making it sound absolutely unenjoyable in every way? That's every story that ends up being "I had to roll to do a normal mundane thing, and UH OOOOOOOOOOH!"
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Oct 27, 2017 07:54
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aegof posted:If a person doesn't like randomness in the tactical games then they are very much not in the target audience for Xcom games. Yes I'm saying certain aspects old xcom's design lead to a fairer, less arbitrary game experience. Fight me 
Splicer fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Oct 27, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 08:09
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Splicer posted:Yes I'm saying certain aspects old xcom's design lead to a fairer, less arbitrary game experience. Fight me I find myself agreeing with you. There's definitely less of an impetus to savescum in 90s XCOM save a complete 12+ squad TPK. nu-XCOM has so few soldiers and so many "RPG elements" to each of them that it's difficult to accept more than a few deaths, and especially when the meta-mechanics enforce some kind of time limit on you. XCOM 2 is even worse in this regard once the time limits start getting enforced within the individual missions themselves.
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Oct 27, 2017 08:25
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gradenko_2000 posted:I find myself agreeing with you. There's definitely less of an impetus to savescum in 90s XCOM save a complete 12+ squad TPK. New xcom frontloads all your decisions before the failure, but gives you nothing to react with when you've already failed. Which shows they never really got what makes failure fun, for me anyway. e: also you can fail a capture mission because the guy with the stun gun falls down, would a trade accessories button have really broken the game? Splicer fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Oct 27, 2017 |
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Oct 27, 2017 09:11
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/Gingerhazing/status/923391519494586368 i feel like the venn diagram between people like this and people who have to play d&d at the exclusion of anything else would be almost a circle and i think the overlap there is people really into the like, macro-community aspect of role-playing where you're really into telling people what happened in your campaign; even a lot of non-p&p nerds know about poo poo like alignment charts and critical successes/fails whereas if you have a real kneeslapper of a l5r story you gotta set it up with like, 'okay there's a fantasy japan and there's these great clans and my guy's clan is the scorpion who are these backstabber guys and and and'
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Oct 27, 2017 10:12
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Brother Entropy posted:whereas if you have a real kneeslapper of a l5r story you gotta set it up with like, 'okay there's a fantasy japan and there's these great clans and my guy's clan is the scorpion who are these backstabber guys and and and' I don't know.... D&D stories definitely dominate any "tell good/bad game experiences!" discussions anywhere, but I figured that was from D&D being 80% of the games people play. Whenever someone shares a story from another system, there's even odds that at some point they mention a "lol bad roll!" that led to something wacky. Maybe it's the ubiquity of D&D combined with it being many people's first RPG?
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Oct 27, 2017 12:33
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All my good RP stories are from Golden Sky Stories and they all sound like cheap emotional heart-tug Facebook spam and should probably end with ‘Like if you believe in miracles!’
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Oct 27, 2017 13:45
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If someone talks to me about tgeir RPG play experience umprompted I reach for my revolver - Hermann Goering
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Oct 27, 2017 13:57
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Plutonis posted:If someone talks to me about tgeir RPG play experience umprompted I reach for my revolver - Hermann Goering How did you find his corpse and why did you fashion a revolver out of his bones? And why am I questioning this?!
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Oct 27, 2017 15:33
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Mr.Misfit posted:How did you find his corpse and why did you fashion a revolver out of his bones? And why am I questioning this?! He's Brazilian, dude. They have lots of Nazi corpses and an innate ability to fashion anything into a gun over there.
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Oct 27, 2017 16:18
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Getsuya posted:All my good RP stories are from Golden Sky Stories and they all sound like cheap emotional heart-tug Facebook spam and should probably end with ‘Like if you believe in miracles!’ Can't send Dreams over the internet, buddy.
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Oct 27, 2017 16:58
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Honestly that Noelle Stevenson tweet above sounds less like something in an actual game and just the kind of joke she'd put into one of her comics--and I like her comics a lot. Her comics also involve a lot of adventure stuff and fighting of monsters and if I were sitting down at her table for D&D I would expect a generally light tone but still monsters, hidden temples, and old grudges. I would not expect a game trying sell itself as 'grown up' and I'd be okay with that. The second one just sounds like a description of a stealth failure--you try to hide in the cupboard and fail with comedic description of failure. We don't know what the consequence or why the character was hiding because Twitter is a horrible medium. Like, I'm not getting the disgusted annoyance with it.
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Oct 27, 2017 17:35
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Brother Entropy posted:whereas if you have a real kneeslapper of a l5r story you gotta set it up with like, 'okay there's a fantasy japan and there's these great clans and my guy's clan is the scorpion who are these backstabber guys and and and'
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Oct 27, 2017 17:37
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Getsuya posted:All my good RP stories are from Golden Sky Stories and they all sound like cheap emotional heart-tug Facebook spam and should probably end with ‘Like if you believe in miracles!’ I hadn't looked into this game before. Having just now done so, this sounds like an awesome time, and I'm gonna check it out. Might be a good one to play with my nephew.
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Oct 27, 2017 17:48
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Yawgmoth posted:All my good RPG stories involve at least some amount of this even in D&D because "hurf durf I rolled a 1 and the DM said I did a stupid!" is generally not very interesting or good for more than a vague almost-laugh. I mean, that kind of makes sense. I mean what else are you going to talk about? Even if you did have a game, like I have, where characters develop, have Shining Moments, and you have an awesome story, you can't sit there and tell them years of events that are only interesting if you were there unless you have a podcast. Since most people don't, what else are they going to talk about than that one wacky time? The real problem is when this leads to players expecting that to be the norm and trying to force that. You get that from new players who came in from podcasts or Tumblr or etcetera.
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Oct 27, 2017 17:51
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is there a particular way you should read a normal d6 to sub it in as a Fate die? My book of Inverse World Fate finally arrived and I don't have the special stuff
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Oct 27, 2017 18:04
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gradenko_2000 posted:is there a particular way you should read a normal d6 to sub it in as a Fate die? My book of Inverse World Fate finally arrived and I don't have the special stuff isn't it 1-2 is a -, 3-4 is a blank and 5-6 is a +
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Oct 27, 2017 18:06
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Serf posted:isn't it 1-2 is a -, 3-4 is a blank and 5-6 is a + Yes, this is an explicitly stated alternative in at least one book I own. (They also upsell their fate card deck.)
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Oct 27, 2017 18:22
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Alternatively : get a sharpie. Bam.
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Oct 27, 2017 18:25
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Xiahou Dun posted:Alternatively : get a sharpie. Bam. 6 = 0 (represented by a square) 5 = + (diagonally) 4 = 0 (a square, again) 3 = + (diagonally) 2 = - (diagonally) 1 = - (diagonally) (for 1, 2, and 3 the + and - are basically interchangeable. Do whatever feels good. If you're OCD, the die will never be 'balanced' by sides.)
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Oct 27, 2017 18:34
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