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I was more replying to Brannock saying that the Mary Sue-ishness doesn't get toned down. It really does. And I'd say the social awkwardness is there from the start, at least when interacting with human beings.
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Sep 2, 2012 05:24
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I actually liked the way she was portrayed in the early chapters, it seemed really reminiscent of like, turn-of-the-century English kids' stories starring precocious, unflappable children. Obviously the character's been developed really well from there, but yeah. People throw "Mary Sue" around way too easily. Haledjian fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Sep 2, 2012 |
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Sep 2, 2012 06:47
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I can see where the complaints are coming from on some of the early chapters, but it still bothers me since I'm certain half the people who have though Annie is a Mary Sue wouldn't have thought so if she was a male protagonist instead.
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Sep 2, 2012 07:29
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1stGear posted:You guys who are defending Antimony are mixing up what she eventually develops into with what she's initially presented as. In the first few chapters, she's talented at everything, gets out of every tight spot with uncommon ease, and there's no evidence of the social awkwardness that plagues her later on. Talented at everything mostly because it's easy. Building the robot only involved assembling spare parts, for example. And it builds her up to get overconfident and cocky, with results that bite her in the butt several times. As for the social awkwardness angle, just listen to the way she speaks. She gets more normal thanks to her interactions with Kat, but that will only highlight that she has no other friend (among humans).
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Sep 2, 2012 07:38
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I think her character gets rounded out nicely around the chapter when Coyote visits the Court with Ysengrin.
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Sep 2, 2012 07:48
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Basically, Annie's rounding out as a character coincides with the rounding out of her head.
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Sep 2, 2012 14:57
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Cat Mattress posted:Talented at everything mostly because it's easy. Building the robot only involved assembling spare parts, for example. And it builds her up to get overconfident and cocky, with results that bite her in the butt several times. If I hadn't been repeatedly told that "it gets really good later", I wouldn't have reached comic number 260, when the story starts getting some direction. Antimony was very hard to relate to in the early strips. There was a ton of weird things happening and she had almost no emotional reaction to any of it, and showed no emotions at all until 86 strips in when chapter 6 started. That made the rules of the universe hard to understand. Did everyone think all that strange stuff was normal? I also thought "oh I'll just build a robot, no problem," seemed too easy. I stopped reading after Chapter 1 for a long time, and almost stopped again after Chapter 5 (again, someone had to convince me to keep going). The cast also seemed small, with only a couple prominent characters and a bunch of extras. Yes, Annie's stoicism was explained, and things from the earlier chapters were eventually tied in, but the key word there is eventually. It took a while for things to seem connected. Readers who have caught up seem to forget the sloooow early chapters. the2ndgenesis posted:You know, I recently read the whole comic for the first time (due in part to this thread The problem is that for me at least, on first reading, it DID come across as poor characterization and writing. I'm sure many other first-time readers could also make the same mistake. The "Mary sue" interpretation comes across because tons of unusual stuff that would break most people out doesn't even make her widen her eyes in surprise. There isn't a hint that she's used to bizarre stuff or has seen it before, instead she comes across as a flat, dull character with no emotions. Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Sep 2, 2012 |
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Sep 2, 2012 15:44
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You know, I recently read the whole comic for the first time (due in part to this thread  ) and Annie never really came off to me as a Mary Sue, even at the beginning. Sure she's good at a lot of stuff when she first gets to Gunnerkrigg, but that's about it. She's pretty emotionally stunted for a lot of the opening chapters- definitely not a trait of a Mary Sue, and after a hundred or so pages it almost turned me off from the comic entirely.But it gradually becomes evident that she acts that way not because of poor characterization/writing but because, as has been mentioned, she's got some pretty serious psychological issues as the result of etheric fuckery. It makes her character more interesting and complex in a way that isn't cheap and doesn't smack of Mary Sue-ness, to say nothing of her other personal flaws that come to the surface in time. Zenzizenzizenzic posted:Basically, Annie's rounding out as a character coincides with the rounding out of her head. Couldn't have said it better.
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Sep 2, 2012 16:16
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If you thought the terror was over... you were wrong.
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Sep 3, 2012 08:04
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Oh good, they're saf...
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Sep 3, 2012 08:17
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I love how I generally forget an update is about to happen, then get reminded by totally cryptic comments that just whet my appetite. For awesome.
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Sep 3, 2012 08:19
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MoonwalkInvincible posted:Seeing as Mary-sue-ism also implies that it's an author self-insert of some sort (or at least used to before it lost all meaning)... I don't think it ever really meant anything (other than 'girl character I dislike', if that?). I read an essay about this awhile ago and I'm paraphrasing: You're reading a story and there's this girl, right? Tragically orphaned, but her parents left her enough money to make her richer than God. Genius intellect who easily masters a dozen fields, Olympian physique, incredible good looks. Every guy she meets falls in love with her, but she pushes them away because she's consumed by angst. Everyone fears and respects her, and even her enemies are obsessed with her. Whatta freakin' Mary Sue, right? Except, whoops, that's Batman. Or there's this lady in the far future. Incredibly charismatic leader, devastatingly attractive to the opposite sex, famous throughout the galaxy as the captain of the finest spaceship in the fleet. It seems like every week she's saving a planet from tyranny and bedding all the cute alien boys while she keeps her cool behind a cocky grin. Yet nobody calls Kirk a Mary Sue. A shitload of popular characters fit the same wish-fulfillment mold, but rarely if ever get handed the dreaded 'Mary Sue' label. Basically if someone calls a character a 'Mary Sue' you should read it as 'I have difficulty precisely articulating what I dislike about this character'.
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Sep 3, 2012 08:36
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SynthOrange posted:Oh good, they're saf... I wonder if one of the next few pages will be someone at the court seeing some huge tree sprouting and freaking out/raising alarm/looking satisfied/not caring.
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Sep 3, 2012 08:36
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Jump-Fly faster Jimmy Jims! 
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Sep 3, 2012 08:41
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"Mary Sue" is not a description of the properties of the character, but of the role they fill in the story. Such a character overpowers the plot, pulls the rest of the cast into a decaying orbit around them, and never grows because they never fail in a way that matters. Mary Sue is a case of reversed goals; an ordinary protagonist is special because she overcomes, but Mary Sue overcomes because she is special. It's obvious that Annie isn't any of those things, but one can be forgiven for committing a type I error, because in some of the early chapters she does satisfy some of the more sensitive heuristics. Anyway, Ysengrim turning into a tree is probably a bad thing. Can he do that?
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Sep 3, 2012 08:45
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Bongo Bill posted:Anyway, Ysengrim turning into a tree is probably a bad thing. Can he do that? You have underestimated Ysengrin's terrifying skills of gardening.  I wonder what's actually going to stop Ysengrin, given that he is in full berserk mode. In the state he's in, I doubt he'd think twice about charging over the bridge into the Court.
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Sep 3, 2012 08:58
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Bongo Bill posted:"Mary Sue" is not a description of the properties of the character, but of the role they fill in the story. Such a character overpowers the plot, pulls the rest of the cast into a decaying orbit around them, and never grows because they never fail in a way that matters. Here's the original Mary Sue story, for reference.
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Sep 3, 2012 10:23
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Honestly, I did not see that one coming. Anyways, avs. Might try animating these or combining them together, but I'll have to save it for later.  
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Sep 3, 2012 10:46
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Wow Ysengrin they don't have psychiatrists in the forest do they 
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Sep 3, 2012 10:47
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Oneiros posted:You have underestimated Ysengrin's terrifying skills of gardening. I'd imagine Coyote would stop him from crossing? Maybe?
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Sep 3, 2012 11:19
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MikeJF posted:I'd imagine Coyote would stop him from crossing? Maybe? I've been wondering if this isn't a ploy by Coyote to have Annie unknowingly rile up Ysengrin to cause such a thing to happen. This would cause the whole court to freak out, which might play into a larger plan of his. Or it could probably just make Coyote laugh.
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Sep 3, 2012 11:28
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Okay, so I interpreted that panel as Ysengrin's tree bits growing so fast that he might even catch up with Eglamore who appears to be going at some speed. "How can a tree possibly grow faster than a flying man can fly?" I thought. I was immediately reminded of a story from The Stinky Cheese Man and Other Fairly Stupid Tales called "The Tortoise and the Hair" where the Hare tries to grow his hair faster than the Tortoise can run. Brings back memories, man.
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Sep 3, 2012 11:35
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GENUINE CAT HERDER posted:I've been wondering if this isn't a ploy by Coyote to have Annie unknowingly rile up Ysengrin to cause such a thing to happen. This would cause the whole court to freak out, which might play into a larger plan of his. Or it could probably just make Coyote laugh. Yeah he's been provoking Ysengrin to go ballistic on Antimony pretty much since she first visited the forest. Humiliate the Strong Courage Honor Warrior guy in front of a little girl, then give her the place of preference he craves and encourage her to treat it like a game, they're not gonna wind up friends. She didn't really have to do anything, it was already coming sooner or later.
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Sep 3, 2012 12:04
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And despite it all, I'm still rooting for them to repair their relationship anyway. Screw you, Coyote.
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Sep 3, 2012 12:06
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MikeJF posted:I'd imagine Coyote would stop him from crossing? Maybe? I'd imagine Jeanne will stop him from crossing.
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Sep 3, 2012 13:20
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Cat Mattress posted:I'd imagine Jeanne will stop him from crossing. Now that would be something worth watching. TIIIIMMMBEERRRRRR
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Sep 3, 2012 14:11
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Dammit Who? posted:I don't think it ever really meant anything (other than 'girl character I dislike', if that?). Zerilan posted:I can see where the complaints are coming from on some of the early chapters, but it still bothers me since I'm certain half the people who have though Annie is a Mary Sue wouldn't have thought so if she was a male protagonist instead. Whitenoise Poster posted:I hate how the term morphed from a specific type of fanfic character to a word used to describe any character who has normal levels of main characterness and is also a girl. I was gonna let this go but... have I just been hearing this term thrown around by an entirely different subset of people than you guys? Is there an entire half of the internet I've totally missed. I've heard the term Mary Sue (or a masculine version like "Gary Stu or something) thrown around in reference to male characters more often than I have female characters, presumably because male protagonists tend to be a bit more common.
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Sep 3, 2012 16:55
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Dammit Who? posted:I don't think it ever really meant anything (other than 'girl character I dislike', if that?). I read an essay about this awhile ago and I'm paraphrasing: Nobody calls the warrior princess of a lost civilization, crafted by the gods themselves, and capable of going toe to toe with the strongest heroes and villains on earth, a Mary Sue. Or the badass space trucker who is stronger and smarter than those around her, and totally disses those corporate fat cats to their faces, a Mary Sue either. Kirk, Batman, Wonder Woman, and Ripley aren't considered Mary Sues because they are long established, it isn't a sexism thing. New characters of either gender are naturally under more scrutiny than the characters we grew up with.
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Sep 3, 2012 18:34
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I think this just changed things. Before it was Ysengrin just being enraged and could be (comparatively) easily repaired. This has moved into a more vicious, intentional desire to harm Annie.
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Sep 3, 2012 19:28
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KSAF Staff Report posted:I think this just changed things. Before it was Ysengrin just being enraged and could be (comparatively) easily repaired. This has moved into a more vicious, intentional desire to harm Annie. 
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Sep 3, 2012 20:07
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Cat Mattress posted:I'd imagine Jeanne will stop him from crossing. Ysengrin and Coyote did cross the bridge, though. I think Jeanne only stops things from crossing directly at the river level. My money is on swarm of Tic-tocs.
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Sep 3, 2012 20:23
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Angry Avocado posted:You make it sound like he didn't try to kill Annie before at some point Enh, everyone tries to kill Annie. It's like a rite of passage or something.
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Sep 3, 2012 20:27
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So, I get the that Ysengrin just launched himself into the sky using his plant powers. I'm half wondering if Ysengrin is so crazy right now that he literally launched HIMSELF. As in, his neat-o wood-golem body was left behind. In which case Annie's got some sickly, old, weak if cranky wolf launching her way. Also, one who I'm pretty sure cannot fly. I doubt it, but I can picture Eglamore turning his head and getting a "oh come on this is just sad" expression on his face at seeing that.
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Sep 3, 2012 20:48
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The question of how much wood he brought with him is pretty important, given that his power is the ability to control it. I wouldn't like his chances against Eglamore in a fight if he didn't have his tree-powers accessible.
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Sep 3, 2012 20:55
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PiotrLegnica posted:Ysengrin and Coyote did cross the bridge, though. I think Jeanne only stops things from crossing directly at the river level. 
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Sep 3, 2012 21:03
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Why would he launch himself out of his wood body? That doesn't even make sense.
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Sep 3, 2012 21:06
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Nonbaka posted:Why would he launch himself out of his wood body? That doesn't even make sense. He's clearly thinking rationally right now.
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Sep 3, 2012 21:23
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Wood is really heavy and we don't know how much force he can exert. It's hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like he might have taken some with him anyway, just maybe not the entire giant spidersuit he was chasing Annie with earlier.
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Sep 3, 2012 21:29
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Nonbaka posted:Why would he launch himself out of his wood body? That doesn't even make sense. You ever seen a dog so eager to catch some small fuzzy animal that they run right in front of a car? This is just like that.
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Sep 3, 2012 21:31
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Slime posted:You ever seen a dog so eager to catch some small fuzzy animal that they run right in front of a car?
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Sep 3, 2012 21:51
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