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Drink-Mix Man posted:Peter Weller and Section 31 are America and the CIA Jesus Christ, every time I think Devin Faraci couldn't crawl any further up his own rear end, he goes and proves me wrong. 
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Jan 16, 2017 18:44
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Oh man, wait 'til VitalSigns gets to the Kurn episode.VitalSigns posted:that special spark of life
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Jan 16, 2017 21:31
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The Dark One posted:Oh man, wait 'til VitalSigns gets to the Kurn episode. Haha, god, that was so weird. It's cool when DS9 intentionally steps in poo poo, morally speaking. Then there are the times when it seems like they just forgot what show they were writing.
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Jan 16, 2017 21:55
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VitalSigns posted:Like yeah I figure eventually they'd accept they have a new O'Brien, but drat you'd think everyone would have to come to grips with it emotionally and maybe they'd at least do a memorial for the guy they knew who volunteered to die horribly from radiation poisoning to save them all? Yeah, but I mean even the idea of past O'Brien being dead is... questionable. A lot of it just comes down to Star Trek writers being super fast and loose with this stuff, but the future where that O'Brien died literally never happens. What does that mean for the O'Brien that came back? Is he really a different person at all? Hell, he shouldn't even exist. The fact that Star Trek timeline lets characters interact with their future/past selves is honestly super weird and nonsensical (more so than time travel in general, even) and leads to all kinds of situations that are hard to parse. Also it'd probably be super hosed up for the O'Brien that came back to see all his friends and loved ones mourning him while he's right there. Paradoxish fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 00:17
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Wikipedia Brown posted:Haha, god, that was so weird. It's cool when DS9 intentionally steps in poo poo, morally speaking. Then there are the times when it seems like they just forgot what show they were writing. It's a consequence of the schedule, I think. They just didn't have time to step back and take a look at what they'd done sometimes. Sending Adult Molly back is another one.
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Jan 17, 2017 00:43
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VitalSigns posted:I'm not arguing that he's too different, I'm arguing that their friend died and no one cared because they got one that's close enough. I feel like we might end up relitigating the entire d&d "does teleportation kill you?" thread here, but their O'Brien/Riker is no more dead than if he hit his head and forgot the last 24 hours or whatever. Having a funeral for someone who is demonstrably still alive and in fact in attendance, now that's weird.
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Jan 17, 2017 01:22
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Did they have a funeral for Tuvix?
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Jan 17, 2017 01:56
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Phimosissy posted:I don't see this as particularly troubling. Funerals commemorate a loss. There is no sense of loss here. The mind will be perfectly happy with this justification. In that example, the experiences each of them had in that 3.5 hours make them separate unique people. If Riker A dies on the mission to rescue RIker B, then yes, a funeral would be appropriate. The person you bring back to the ship is not the same person that died on the way. Baronjutter posted:Did they have a funeral for Tuvix? No, because Voyager is a poo poo show that doesn't care about the long term consequences of each episode.
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Jan 17, 2017 01:59
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I don't know where this whole argument is coming from. In the future, people don't grieve. They accept death and move on, even the children.
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Jan 17, 2017 02:28
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Paradoxish posted:Yeah, but I mean even the idea of past O'Brien being dead is... questionable. A lot of it just comes down to Star Trek writers being super fast and loose with this stuff, but the future where that O'Brien died literally never happens. What does that mean for the O'Brien that came back? Is he really a different person at all? Hell, he shouldn't even exist. The fact that Star Trek timeline lets characters interact with their future/past selves is honestly super weird and nonsensical (more so than time travel in general, even) and leads to all kinds of situations that are hard to parse. But whatever, the episode itself pokes fun at its own plot and O'Brien(s) handwave all the problems with "I hate temporal mechanics" so eh. Paradoxish posted:Also it'd probably be super hosed up for the O'Brien that came back to see all his friends and loved ones mourning him while he's right there. Maybe. But Alt-O'Brien is the only one who seems sad and conflicted about it, so maybe some acknowledgment of his unique humanity and the sacrifice the other O'Brien made would help him more than going "pffft you're the same to us who cares. Look Worf knows where to get all the O'Briens we need so don't let any workplace safety precautions slow down your repairs on the replicator." The Dark One posted:Oh man, wait 'til VitalSigns gets to the Kurn episode. I kinda remember what happened and I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be horrified. I just finished my Next Gen rewatch and holy poo poo Beverly Crusher's medical ethics wtf. I didn't know what informed consent was as a kid but now hoo boy.  Thank you for saving my world Mr Data, you're my best friend.  Come along to sick bay. I'm scared. Can Mr. Data come Of course. Don't worry I won't hurt you, I just need to make sure you're all right, just a quick check-up.*Does brain surgery*
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Jan 17, 2017 02:54
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Baronjutter posted:Did they have a funeral for Tuvix? Everyone spit in a bucket and they flushed that out an airlock.
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Jan 17, 2017 03:09
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VitalSigns posted:
Wasn't that Pulaski? I thought when Crusher tried it on the proto-Vulcans she hosed it up and the local remembered everything after they beamed back down.
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Jan 17, 2017 03:22
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Also I'm not sure why they had to wipe her brain at all. She's a little kid, they make poo poo up all the time. Just one more UFO/"aliens beamed me" person running around.
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Jan 17, 2017 03:24
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Of course that was the same episode with Riker arguing for some bullshit ~*cosmic plan*~ so I guess she's lucky they didn't just let them all die, like that planet of people Paul Sorvino was banging
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Jan 17, 2017 03:25
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Wasn't that Pulaski? I thought when Crusher tried it on the proto-Vulcans she hosed it up and the local remembered everything after they beamed back down. It was Pulaski, yeah. What's more, when Crusher talked about it later on, she referred to it as "Dr. Pulaski's technique". As in, Pulaski invented it herself. So that little alien girl didn't just get non-consensual brain surgery, she got non-consensual experimental brain surgery.
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Jan 17, 2017 03:28
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Powered Descent posted:It was Pulaski, yeah. What's more, when Crusher talked about it later on, she referred to it as "Dr. Pulaski's technique". As in, Pulaski invented it herself. So that little alien girl didn't just get non-consensual brain surgery, she got non-consensual experimental brain surgery. Picturing her as a mad Doctor who looks at every thing that comes to her sick bay as a chance to experiment only makes me like Pulaski more
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Jan 17, 2017 03:33
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Pulaski owns. A no bullshit woman the 90s didn't deserve.
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Jan 17, 2017 03:38
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Pulaski owns entirely and she hosed Worf
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Jan 17, 2017 03:49
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He only agreed because she said warriors sleep with their doctors in order to embiggen their honor and Worf fell for it because he didn't want to look like he didn't know as much about Klingons as her.
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Jan 17, 2017 03:56
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skasion posted:Pulaski owns entirely and she hosed Worf Huh?
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Jan 17, 2017 04:42
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Worf's into racist old chicks. It is an honourable form of sexual conquest.
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Jan 17, 2017 04:50
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Wasn't that Pulaski? I thought when Crusher tried it on the proto-Vulcans she hosed it up and the local remembered everything after they beamed back down. Oh yeahhhh it was. Okay general Federation medical ethics then. Powered Descent posted:It was Pulaski, yeah. What's more, when Crusher talked about it later on, she referred to it as "Dr. Pulaski's technique". As in, Pulaski invented it herself. So that little alien girl didn't just get non-consensual brain surgery, she got non-consensual experimental brain surgery. It's loving bizarre because it doesn't even work all the time (the proto-Vulcans, that other race Worf's brother saved, etc), you're doing experimental surgery on nonconsenting alien races whose biology you're seeing for the first time because "hey maybe, and eh the Prime Directive is just as safe if we accidentally vegetablize her" Let the little girl have her special space friend, nobody is going to believe her anyway. Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Of course that was the same episode with Riker arguing for some bullshit ~*cosmic plan*~ so I guess she's lucky they didn't just let them all die, like that planet of people Paul Sorvino was banging Only because there wasn't enough grass on the field for Riker. When Riker has a chance to bone an alien like say an androgynous "but really totally really a woman, no homo" -Rick Berman yet horny and curious being, whoa suddenly non-consensual brain surgery is not okay, Prime Directive be damned I'mma lead a covert op.
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Jan 17, 2017 04:53
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Kazinsal posted:Worf's into racist old chicks. It is an honourable form of sexual conquest. That tea ceremony was foreplay. Worf and Riker's dad spitroasted Pulaski while Data took notes and Geordi spied from a crack in the door.
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Jan 17, 2017 05:00
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Big Mean Jerk posted:In that example, the experiences each of them had in that 3.5 hours make them separate unique people. If Riker A dies on the mission to rescue RIker B, then yes, a funeral would be appropriate. The person you bring back to the ship is not the same person that died on the way. Sure, that's what Data would argue, and detached federation philosophers would probably agree. I do. But that's not how people would feel because human psychology doesn't give a whit about that kind of rationality. If he's there in the room with you, those 3.5 hours dont matter. The duplicate would be accepted. Also, this sort of poo poo happens all the time in Trek, people would already be OK with the idea of loving quantum duplicates. What are you some kind of duplicist?!
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Jan 17, 2017 05:06
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Sort of like Pulaski, Guinan was angling for a little Worf action at the beginning of Yesterday's Enterprise but he didn't get the hint.
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Jan 17, 2017 05:11
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Hey folks! I haven't checked on the Trek thread in a while since I've had to pause my ENT run and--Big Mean Jerk posted:That tea ceremony was foreplay. Worf and Riker's dad spitroasted Pulaski while Data took notes and Geordi spied from a crack in the door. 
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Jan 17, 2017 05:12
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Railing Kill posted:Hey folks! I haven't checked on the Trek thread in a while since I've had to pause my ENT run and-- Username/av combo!
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Jan 17, 2017 05:16
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Phimosissy posted:Sure, that's what Data would argue, and detached federation philosophers would probably agree. I do. But that's not how people would feel because human psychology doesn't give a whit about that kind of rationality. If he's there in the room with you, those 3.5 hours dont matter. Nah, just a few episodes earlier Bashir refused to Ship-of-Theseus Bareil into a Bareil-like AI because "special spark of life" and "I'd be killing a man no matter what", and not because "the AI wouldn't be good enough but if it were indistinguishable I'd totally copy him and your human(-oid) psychology wouldn't care!" If they were truly okay with quantum duplicates, they'd just use two transporter confinement beams for every transport like what happened with Riker, save one in Scotty's buffer loop trick, and bam spare bodies in case poo poo goes down on an away mission. Given this I think alt-O'Brien is right to be concerned that he could die and his friends would not care as long as another one showed up from an alternate universe.
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Jan 17, 2017 05:41
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Railing Kill posted:Hey folks! I haven't checked on the Trek thread in a while since I've had to pause my ENT run and-- TBF I forgot this wasn't the GBS thread
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Jan 17, 2017 05:43
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shitpost factor 10: to occupy all trek threads at once
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Jan 17, 2017 05:50
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Tighclops posted:shitpost factor 10: to occupy all trek threads at once Engage!
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Jan 17, 2017 06:00
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VitalSigns posted:Nah, just a few episodes earlier Bashir refused to Ship-of-Theseus Bareil into a Bareil-like AI because "special spark of life" and "I'd be killing a man no matter what", and not because "the AI wouldn't be good enough but if it were indistinguishable I'd totally copy him and your human(-oid) psychology wouldn't care!" Psychologically, planning to replace someone with a quantum duplicate is like considering murder, but living with one created by accident (and appearing at nearly the same time the 'original' dies) is completely different. Your psyche will adjust to the living being and the corpse will merely be a nightmarish simulacrum. Your love for the pattern of behavior that is that person will easily override your logical deductions about which particular meat bag is the genuine article. If Bareil had been accidentally transferred into a robobrain he would have been accepted, but doing it on purpose is different. Alternately, medical technology and ethics in Trek are super duper inconsistent.
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Jan 17, 2017 06:14
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My problem isn't that they'll come to love and accept the duplicate (makes sense they would), but that nobody except the duplicate gave two fucks that a person they knew and loved suffered and died of radiation poisoning and never saw his friends and family again. Like if O'Brien died and then 3.5 hours later someone said "hey I just figured out how we can rescue an alternate O'Brien from a universe where the station is about to blow up and kill everyone, let's go get him so we don't have to be sad" should they all be like "woo hoo cancel the funeral!"? Although they are pretty callous with this stuff I guess. I was going to bring up Children of Time, but looking at the Memory Alpha synopsis they were totally cool with creating a duplicate-Kira to leave on the planet to die and it was only when they discovered there was going to be no duplicate Defiant and they would be stranded that suddenly Sisko is all "you don't have the right to sacrifice another person's life just to save your town!" Uh ok dude two seconds ago you were 100% cool with sacrificing someone's life as long as you created a spare.
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Jan 17, 2017 08:02
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Remember that time some dude cloned himself to frame Odo, and then while investigating the 'murder' they accidentally created another clone of him, and then at the end of the episode just threw in a line about sending the clone off to make a new life? That's gotta be a weird life to have - "Yes, I know all your records say I'm a criminal convicted of murder, but I'm actually a clone the cops made by mistake while investigating him."
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Jan 17, 2017 10:08
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I'm sure the Federation keeps records about that sort of thing and has some kind of 2 factor authorization to keep something stupid from happening like a clone impersonating his double and stealing a starship. I mean with android officers that's a necessity could you imagine the havoc an evil model of even a midlevel position like operations officer on the flagship could cause?
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Jan 17, 2017 10:28
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Angry Salami posted:Remember that time some dude cloned himself to frame Odo, and then while investigating the 'murder' they accidentally created another clone of him, and then at the end of the episode just threw in a line about sending the clone off to make a new life? That's gotta be a weird life to have - "Yes, I know all your records say I'm a criminal convicted of murder, but I'm actually a clone the cops made by mistake while investigating him."
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Jan 17, 2017 10:29
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Nessus posted:My favorite part is that Bashir accidentally made a clone in a loving open-topped tub in the infirmary. What if Morn had sneezed near it? A BrundleFly episode of DS9 would have been cool.
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Jan 17, 2017 10:30
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I also liked how that clone knew to grow right to the appropriate age so they could look at him and finger the suspect.
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Jan 17, 2017 10:35
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Presumably the ready-mix clone goo was genetically programmed to do that so clone would be the right age to be mistaken for the murderer's corpse. E: oh gently caress he doesn't even get a childhood. "OK here's some tapes to show you how to wipe your rear end and put on pants. If you study hard you'll be functioning at a 6th grade level before you're 35. Luckily you'll have plenty of time to study because you have no friends and no idea how to relate to your own species" VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Jan 17, 2017 |
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Jan 17, 2017 11:05
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VitalSigns posted:Presumably the ready-mix clone goo was genetically programmed to do that so clone would be the right age to be mistaken for the murderer's corpse. It would've been great if that guy came back later.
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Jan 17, 2017 11:31
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